But It's Made in America

[KWRB]

Country of origin, country of assembly and the like have come up in another thread. I didn't want to hijack.

Country of manufacture is important, and I go out of my way to buy American when I can. But, it may not be the only thing. It may not be as simple as "but, it's made here." Likewise, are we losing something of value when we purchase "American" products made in other countries?

Just some food for thought:

Many people get wadded up on country of origin, focusing on manufacturing or assembling only. I suspect this is because generations of union awareness campaigns have been beating that drum. Good on them, but there may be more to it.

For every dollar you spend on a machine, how much of it goes to the guys assembling, welding, painting, bolting, etc.? Now, how much of that dollar goes to the engineers and the draftsmen that designed it, and where are they located? The R&D efforts that went into it before the product engineer even got the assignment? How about all the corporate functions like the accountants, the purchasing, the marketing, and the legal team? What about the upper management and the c-suite? How about all the taxes on the wages of all those people, and the local support industry for those functions? Where does the corporate entity have pet philanthropic causes? In times of crises or national emergency, where are their allegiances and where will their efforts be prioritized?

Might there be more than just the assembly jobs to consider when we consider "origin" of a product?

[New Englander]

Good point. It's truly global. I fly a French plane. The three engines are made by Pratt&Whitney Canada. The APU is Honeywell, formerly Garrett/Air Research, Arizona USA. The Avionics are Honeywell as well. The complete interior, seats,etc., are all made in the USA and the whole airplane arrives from France in green primer ballasted to minimum flight weight and spends a year being completed in Little Rock. Various other systems such as the HUD, entertainment system, etc are made of parts from all over the USA and Europe. I don't have the individual numbers but there are many millions of dollars that go to USA and Canada companies and employees and taxes even though the plane is designed and built in France with components from many places.

Nothing from China that I'm aware of but there's likely some chips in the entertainment systems, monitors, etc. The microwave oven is Samsung but probably made in the USA and not Korea.

[jeeper61]

That will change soon as the Chinese get into commercial aviation deeper.

With a 30 hour work week building anything in France will need to be subsidized to be competitive 

[New Englander]

3 minutes ago, jeeper61 said:

That will change soon as the Chinese get into commercial aviation deeper 

Amazing what you can do with stolen technology.

[jeeper61]

3 minutes ago, New Englander said:

Amazing what you can do with stolen technology.

Yes they did a better job on their F-35 then we did 

[New Englander]

5 minutes ago, jeeper61 said:

That will change soon as the Chinese get into commercial aviation deeper.

With a 30 hour work week building anything in France will need to be subsidized to be competitive 

Dassault commercial aviation is not subsidized, however, the french government has a big investment in the Rafale fighter, a rough equivalent, maybe better than. an F22.

[IHandJDman]

Some really good points about workers everywhere that are in the US helping to build a product. you really want to buy something American get a new knee or hip. 3 of the big 4 are made in the US. The company still can turn out a knee from a casting or forging to a finished packaged product.  Only problem is you can't just go to the store and buy new body parts.

[jeeper61]

13 minutes ago, New Englander said:

Dassault commercial aviation is not subsidized,

[New Englander]

4 minutes ago, jeeper61 said:

Military contracts.

[New Englander]

5 minutes ago, jeeper61 said:

It's the R&D for military products just like General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing in the 'states.

[jeeper61]

21 minutes ago, New Englander said:

It's the R&D for military products just like General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing in the 'states.

Actually a lot of its being paid by US tax payers for their operations in the US and some of it appears to be commercial aviation related 

Just some of it 

[New Englander]

You've got a lot of apples and oranges here. The Dassault Falcon Jet Company is a US company that markets, and completes aircraft. Just like any other US company states will offer tax incentives to locate their operations there because they, the states, will benefit from the taxes they'll collect. Dassault Systems is a software company that has nothing to do with aircraft. So yes, the Dassault company name will appear on tax incentives in many places. That doesn't mean the division that makes the commercial aircraft in France is subsidized.

When the final bill for a new plane is presented, about 50 million for a 7X, the proceeds are quite divided. Money goes to the factory in France who have already paid Pratt&Whitney, Honeywell, and a host of other suppliers and money goes to Dassault Falcon Jet which is further divided up between the facility in Little Rock and the sales office in NJ. The completion center has already paid out funds for their suppliers.

For instance the Nevada tax incentive for Dassault Aircraft Services, a US company, is to get them to locate a maintenance facility at the Reno airport where the state of Nevada will benefit from tax collections, the Reno airport will benefit from landing fees and fuel sales, also taxed, hotels and restaurants in Reno benefit, lodging and meals taxes will be paid so it's money well not spent!  Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez thought it was a check New York was writing to Amazon and said they could spend the money on something else. Well there was no money. It was just an incentive for money that wouldn't need to be paid by Amazon to locate there and provide jobs that would generate taxes and support the local economy.

The money that the French government Dassault pays for R&D is actual money as the US pays defense contractors to develop weapons systems.

There is trickle down in that the fly by wire system the commercial planes use was developed for combat aircraft some years ago which may have seen some government funds but it's hard to know. Gulfstream aircraft now incorporate fly by wire systems and it's possible that they're using some General Dynamics research but they make no such claim as Dassault does.

[Alan Dinan]

Curtis air compressors are made here, but are owned by a foreign company. So how much research does one need to do to get something made here that is from start to finish.

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

After S-K Tools was bought out by a Chinese company, I was still buying them as they were still USA made. I went to get a few sockets the other day and they were no longer USA. I bought Wright instead because they said USA on them. I have a lot of S-K stuff, but I doubt I’ll be buying much of it anymore. 

[1256pickett]

I had two recent purchases for the shop in the last couple years that I wanted American made so I did a little digging before I bought. I should have dug deeper. First I finally got a good air compressor. I knew ingersol rand used to be American made but they shut down factory next county over and went to mexico. Next thing I found was Quincy. Looked good priced right found one on sale and bought it. Two months later I found out that they were now assembled in America rather than made in America. 
Then I needed a new bench grinder. Didn’t think I’d find one of those that was reasonably priced but I did. Sunex. Two months after I bought that it seems they move some manufacturing overseas including my bench grinder. 
I tried. Still not bad purchases, both have been good investments just wish I had bought them a little sooner. 

[mike newman]

4 hours ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

After S-K Tools was bought out by a Chinese company, I was still buying them as they were still USA made. I went to get a few sockets the other day and they were no longer USA. I bought Wright instead because they said USA on them. I have a lot of S-K stuff, but I doubt I’ll be buying much of it anymore. 

DFP....I have a bunch of Sherman  -Klove  tools...some my Dad brought around 1950 when the HD5  Allis crawler arrived...

I haunt the second hand shops for American tools...and now have a bunch of stuff procured this way....All good American names..and proudly living in a big  portable tool box ...in fact there is a ridiculous amount of stuff  that an old bloke will never wear out !!!

I was helping a neighbour with his usual   disasters  at hay time, a few years gone....He had some ring  / open end spanners made in India...of all places..I was using a 3/4 spanner , with the ''ring'' end  and although just an average size  bloke, I broke that piece of excrement with my right arm, trying to undo a  stud on his mower...

...thats why I collect American tools...which new, are few and far between for sale in NZ, these   daze....

Mike

[756puller]

I just trust Pedro more than yo ming.

[lotsaIHCs]

There is very little you buy in this day and age that is 100% designed, manufactured, assembled and owned by a USA company. The company I work for is based in Korea, has US design and company headquarters in California and manufacturing in Alabama as well as plants all over the world. I don't know what percentage of what money goes to whom in which country. I do know that they employ thousands of people in the USA and their distribution and dealer networks employ thousands more. I'm guessing that there are many seemingly American  businesses and manufacturers that are partly or wholly owned by a foreign company. I like to buy US but sometimes you just don't know.

[ComancheStarFarms]

Probably time to figure out what’s the new definition of Patriotism - - and where each of us are in the lineup.

[Ihfan4life]

1 hour ago, ComancheStarFarms said:

Probably time to figure out what’s the new definition of Patriotism - - and where each of us are in the lineup.

Isn’t it defined by how many zeros are after the dollar sign? Seems like that is the deciding factor anyway…

[Ian Beale]

4 hours ago, mike newman said:

DFP....I have a bunch of Sherman  -Klove  tools...some my Dad brought around 1950 when the HD5  Allis crawler arrived...

I haunt the second hand shops for American tools...and now have a bunch of stuff procured this way....All good American names..and proudly living in a big  portable tool box ...in fact there is a ridiculous amount of stuff  that an old bloke will never wear out !!!

I was helping a neighbour with his usual   disasters  at hay time, a few years gone....He had some ring  / open end spanners made in India...of all places..I was using a 3/4 spanner , with the ''ring'' end  and although just an average size  bloke, I broke that piece of excrement with my right arm, trying to undo a  stud on his mower...

...thats why I collect American tools...which new, are few and far between for sale in NZ, these   daze....

Mike

Mike

A repeat of my complaint about fencing pliers.  My step up from Henry Boker and Elliot and Lucas was a pair of Utica's in 1964.  Then to USA made Crescents until a couple of years ago when I found the new pair was made in Taiwan.  They rolled the cutters in about 100 m of fence on the Tyeasy high tensile that we use a lot.  The replacement pair wasn't much better.

They look pretty similar to Kincrome ones.

[sd186man]

4 minutes ago, Ian Beale said:

Mike

A repeat of my complaint about fencing pliers.  My step up from Henry Boker and Elliot and Lucas was a pair of Utica's in 1964.  Then to USA made Crescents until a couple of years ago when I found the new pair was made in Taiwan.  They rolled the cutters in about 100 m of fence on the Tyeasy high tensile that we use a lot.  The replacement pair wasn't much better.

They look pretty similar to Kincrome ones.

Moore maker is the best fence pliers I can find here, no idea where made

[brewcrew]

There has been a lot of talk lately about tariffs ( perhaps you have heard as well…) and how it will raise prices of everything. Currently there are two options- buy cheap imported junk, or buy expensive junk. Nobody even bothers to make good quality because it would be priced out by the competition. I just hope if these tariffs come to be, that not only will companies offer made in America again, but will take some pride in their products. That seems to be severely lacking lately!

[JaredT]

1 hour ago, brewcrew said:

There has been a lot of talk lately about tariffs ( perhaps you have heard as well…) and how it will raise prices of everything. Currently there are two options- buy cheap imported junk, or buy expensive junk. Nobody even bothers to make good quality because it would be priced out by the competition. I just hope if these tariffs come to be, that not only will companies offer made in America again, but will take some pride in their products. That seems to be severely lacking lately!

X2, my hope but seriously doubted

[KWRB]

1 hour ago, brewcrew said:

There has been a lot of talk lately about tariffs ( perhaps you have heard as well…) and how it will raise prices of everything. Currently there are two options- buy cheap imported junk, or buy expensive junk. Nobody even bothers to make good quality because it would be priced out by the competition. I just hope if these tariffs come to be, that not only will companies offer made in America again, but will take some pride in their products. That seems to be severely lacking lately!

I tried to keep the original post relatively low in opinion.

My opinion on this is, it's a darn shame that quality doesn't seem to sell well enough that a higher priced, higher product can't seem to survive in the American market... I hope an overall "rising tide" in the economy will bring more people away from the margin, where they can justify paying for quality, rather than "just enough to get by."