Jump to content


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


Everything posted by KWRB

  1. Also, FYI, CNH uses SKF seals in my experience. Napa seals are SKF also. There's an SKF seals interchange guide online, and I have a copy. If you need seals too, you can save money and time both by using Napa and buying the SKF numbers. If you want, send me the seal numbers and I'll get the SKF/Napa numbers for you
  2. @DWV, You could very well be right, I don't know anything more than what I found on the CNH parts site. Those two diagrams were shown together and one says right on the picture FBK501-34887. I only assumed the next picture was the later serials. @Frank H, buying a parts book is definitely the way to go. In all the iterations of the website, stuff has definitely gotten lost over the years, but the parts book is complete. There are multiple online sources for them, but I've gotten mine from Binder Books. I just don't have one for an M, as I don't own one, yet. If you pull your bearings and keep track of where they came from, and send me the part numbers (they may have a ########R91 or similar format), I'll cross those numbers for ya. The ST numbers are the catch-all numbers that IH used for replacements and stocking purposes. They called them "IH Key Part Numbers". They usually interchange with multiple of the longer format bearing numbers. I gave you a ton of info -nearly everything I could find actually. But typically I just look up the dimensions and construction configuration in the bearing book, and find an SKF or Timken that matches. I am fond of SKF/Timken bearings for these older tractors. They're good quality and I don't expect to have any problems with them. They're often USA made, but it's not a guarantee. If you wanted to go less expensive, you can see in the lists, the general part number formats. These are all standard bearings, and you could get a cheaper one from McMaster or whatever. Just no guess on the quality.
  3. You're welcome. I enjoy it. A fellow forum member, @hillman sold me the bearing bible and I made the promise to him to help folks out when able. Keep in mind it's not complete. This application in particular is a little hairy. My post is long but read it all the way through. You'll need your serial number, and if you're in the later serial group, you'll need both to measure a bore for one bearing and to find an old parts book with the missing part number for the other bearing.
  4. If they changed to more balls, it would be to increase radial load capacity. Generally the bearing manufacturers refer to that as "full complement". That is, the highest numbers of balls that the space between the races allows. There are two ways of manufacturing ball bearings. One is to offset the inner race relative to the outer and feed the balls into the wide gap between the two (sometimes called Conrad. IDK why.). One can only fit so many this way, because as you install more balls, the races have to get concentric to accommodate, thus reducing the size of that gap until it's too small to fit a ball through. In order to install more balls, a different way of assembling includes a loading slot added to the race. This allows for inserting balls with the races aligned concentrically. This loading slot increases radial capacity, but decreases axial capacity (to virtually zero in some cases). In the case of a bull pinion, a full complement with a loading slot is just fine -probably ideal. Usually a steel cage is added with a full complement of balls, because the chances of them contacting and damaging the bearing is increased. The relevant parts diagram is serial-number-dependent. Maybe this running change was the change you are thinking of. I have no idea. Either way, we can find out which bearings apply to yours. What is the serial number? For Serials FBK501-34887: Bearing 7, ST269A: (Per the IH Bearing Book, this is a ball bearing, Light series with 60mm bore, and limited, non-loading groove configuration) West Pullman C260 (IH Bearing Book) RHP 6212 (IH Bearing Book) Fafnir 212-K (IH Bearing Book) Fischer 6212 (IH Bearing Book) SNR (France) 6212 (IH Bearing Book) SKF 6212 (IH Bearing Book) New Departure 3212 (IH Bearing Book) Bearing 10, ST223: note that the IH bearing book only shows ST223A. Unsure if they're the same bearing (Per the IH Bearing Book, this is a ball bearing, Light series with 70mm bore, and max fill/loading groove configuration) West Pullman L270 (IH Bearing Book, for ST223A) Fafnir 214-W (IH Bearing Book, for ST223A) TRW Marlin Rockwell 214-M (IH Bearing Book, for ST223A) New Departure 1214 (IH Bearing Book, for ST223A) SKF 214-A (IH Bearing Book, for ST223A) SKF-214-J (SKF Interchange, for both ST223 and ST223A)(Light Series single row ball bearing, 70mm bore, hardened steel cage (which usually implies full complement)) BCA/Federal Mogul Bearing 1214 (IH Bearing Book) RIV-SKF (Italy) 11-4 (IH Bearing Book) Timken 1214AG (Timken Interchange) NOTE: (I had a similar bearing bearing in my project, a 12xxAG that I had to contact Timken about. The AG is a steel cage and likely therefore a max fill, the 14 is a 70mm bore. This number corresponds directly to the SKF 214-J, per both interchanges) Presumably, the other diagram is for Serial 34888 and up, though it doesn't say so explicitly Bearing 5, shows two part numbers: ST218A (65mm bore) and ST227B (60mm bore). You'll need to know the shaft diameter (the bore diameter) in order to determine which of these is appropriate. ST218A (Per IH Bearing Book, this is a Ball Bearing, Light Series, Max Fill (full complement)) West Pullman L265 (IH Bearing Book) (Loading Groove assy, light series, 65mm bore) TRW Marlin Rockwell 213-M (IH Bearing Book) New Departure 1213 (IH Bearing Book) RHP (England) M213-J (IH Bearing Book) SKF Australia 213-A (IH Bearing Book) SKF 213-J (SKF Interchange) -->Timken 1213A (Timken interchange, from SKF 213J) RIV-SKF (Italy) 10-A (IH Bearing Book) Fafnir 213-W (IH Bearing Book) ST227B (Per IH Bearing Book, this is a Ball Bearing, Light Series, Max Fill, 70mm Bore) West Pullman L260 (IH Bearing Book) (Loading Groove assy, light series, 70mm Bore) Fafnir 212-W (IH Bearing Book) TRW Marlin Rockwell 212-M (IH Bearing Book) SKF 212-J (IH Bearing Book) RHP (England) M212-J (IH Bearing Book) RIV-SKF (Italy) 9-A (IH Bearing Book) Timken 1212AG (Timken Interchange) Bearing 12, not shown in online parts diagram. If you have a parts book and get me the number I'll get you the interchanges.
  5. Sure this wasn't southern hemisphere? Judging by the upside down photos, I'm thinking maybe
  6. I can't say for certain, but there may be 1) trapped air taking up space when you're filling. 2) trapped oil that isn't draining. If this is the case, there won't be anything you can do about it. Either way, I'd fill it to the mark, run it around for a bit, and then see if it takes any more.
  7. @farmalldr beat me to the punch. I have a C-199 book if you want pictures. I am also on the hunt for a few parts to complete mine. I *think* I just need the brackets that attach to the axle, but I haven't tried to fit it up yet. Kinda need a completed tractor to do that!
  8. Looks like NTN 1214 will interchange, the 1200 series is their "light" metric standard max fill single row ball bearing, 14 is 70mm bore, and all their max fill single rows have cages.
  9. Bold, underlined numbers are the part numbers shown in the parts catalog online. I started with these when I did the interchange Plain, underlined numbers are the interchangeable alternatives for that bearing (source of interchange is shown in parentheses)(part number decode is also shown) Inner Bearing is element 3 in figure above. Outer bearing is element 6. Outer seal is element 7. Inner Bearing, figure no. 3, ST-223A: Identified as a ball bearing, light series, max fill. The catalog also indicates that this is interchangeable with IH part number 23276H Interchangeable with the following: West Pullman L 270 (IH Bearing Book) (Loading Groove Assembly(required for max fill), light series, 70 mm bore) New Departure 1214 (IH Bearing Book) (70mm bore, Light series, single row max fill) SKF 214-J (SKF Interchange) (Light Series, Max fill type, 70mm bore, steel cage) Timken 1214AG (Timken Interchange) (I can't find out what the AG suffix means, But I'm guessing it means max fill, with a cage) IH 375215R91 (CASEIH Website part catalog) --> which in turn crosses to Bower MSN 1214 EAL (IH bearing book) IH 272575R91 (IH Book) --> Timken 1214AG (Timken Interchange) --> SKF 214-J (SKF Interchange) --> Fafnir 214-L (IH Book) (Single row ball brg, light series, 70mm bore, one mechanical seal) in IH bearing book IH 304657C91 (IH Book) --> Timken 1214AG (Timken Interchange) --> SKF 214-J (SKF Interchange) IH 306858C91 (IH Book) --> Timken 1214AG (Timken Interchange) --> SKF 214-J (SKF Interchange) IH 372185R91 (IH Book) --> Timken 1214AG (Timken Interchange) --> SKF 214-J (SKF Interchange) IH 372186R91 (IH Book) --> Timken 1214AG (Timken Interchange) --> SKF 214-J (SKF Interchange) IH 842951R91 (IH Book) --> Timken 1214AG (Timken Interchange) --> SKF 214-J (SKF Interchange) --> RIV SKF Italy 11-A (I wasn't able to confirm the decode here) Curiously, I started with looking up ST-675, per @DWV's post above, and got the WP, ND numbers above and IH 23276H. When I then re-crossed the West Pullman number L270 in the same IH book, I got IH number ST-223A. ST-223A and ST-675 show interchangeability with the exact same West Pullman, New Departure, Timken and SKF numbers in the IH book and in the Timken and SKF guides. So, I take that to mean IH part number ST-265 and ST-223A are interchangeable. Lastly on this bearing, the CASEIH website, for ST223A shows available for $84, and shows a handful of interchanges that I've already captured above plus what appears to be a current inventory stock number of CaseIH 84330092, available for $118, and with this picture! You'll see that says "SKF" "214" and shows a steel cage. When you looks at the ball spacing, it's a max fill. Also, cages are often used on max fill bearings. So ST223A and 84330092 are the same bearing, but different part numbers and different prices. Go figure that. I then went to look up the other bearing, and I see the outer is listed as ST675, which per everything I wrote above, IS THE SAME BEARING! Only on the website, they list the dimensions in inches, whereas the other is shown in mm. Millimeter incrementing has been the standard for bearings even in the US for oh, about 100 years. As I explained above, these appear to be the exact same bearing and share all the interchanges above. ==================================================================================================================== Now for seals. With seals, I don't bother with anything other than SKF (which used to be Chicago Rawhide. CR was original equipment on my 1950 IH tractor seals, and I've always had good luck with them, and they're available at Napa. Outer Seal, figure no. 7, 360457R91: Interchangeable with SKF 27368 I hope this helps!! KWRB
  10. Funny you say that. I love Olivers' color scheme precisely BECAUSE it's ugly!! I think Deutz is an ugly green. I like the JD green. Commence beatdown!
  11. I agree, and that's what I do, because I can't afford restored tractors, and because I like the challenge and the pride of it. However, the restoration well isn't bottomless, and certain rarities can't be recreated, like experimentals, special serial numbers, certain provenance. Eventually, I'm probably going to end up buying a real nice O-4 or O-6, because I've never seen a great restoration candidate that would not require fabrication that's way beyond me, if the information (drawings, etc) even exists to perform the fabrication.
  12. This. An opportunity for someone else to build a high end collection. It can't be done unless someone else is willing to sell...
  13. Update: Called Hastings and they insisted I email them with tech support questions. Not ideal. It'll probably take a week to have a conversation that could could have been five minutes. Called Total Seal and they don't offer "those fat rings" anymore, but their tech support guy confirmed that the middle ring is "just a scraper, nothing more" and so profile isn't terribly significant. Very friendly guy and willing to talk and didn't get annoyed or rush me off the phone. I appreciate that. Called HeavyDutyPros who are my absolute authority on all things engine. I can't recommend these guys enough. As I said before, they're friendly, super knowledgeable and above all, resourceful. They can get all kinds of stuff that is unobtanium. Their sister company is the engine shop where I have my engine work done. They do everything from heavy duty diesels, to racecars. Anyway, they confirmed that a three ring setup is more common as designs are evolved but the kits contain those extra middle or extra oil rings, so they remain compatible with more pistons. We talked about bevels and profiles and more or less, they're not real concerned with the "reverse torsion" shape of the Hastings rings, relative to the traditional positive torsion design. Either way, it's an oil scraper to deal with oil missed by the oil ring. They're going to pursue Hastings and some others and get me a set. I'm going to replace all the rings while the engine is apart, and move on with my life.
  14. I'm fairly confident the engine had cast iron pistons originally. They were 3". I don't think iron pistons are even available, so I'm going to try my luck with these. I hadn't thought of that though, and so I called my engine shop. He gave a very fast and over my head explanation of why that engine's balance won't be affected by the switch to aluminum.
  15. It's the opposite situation. The piston has three grooves, and the kits come with four per piston. So, the piston would be full, but I'd have one left over. I'm leaning that way, but I don't know which profile to get.
  16. Factory pistons are looong gone, but the book shows options for pistons ((A): Gas/Distillate 3" four-ring gray iron pistons, (B) kerosene 3" four ring gray iron pistons, (C) gas/distillate 3-1/8" Aluminum Pistons and (D) Kerosene 3-1/8" four ring gray Iron. Mine are aluminum and 3" aftermarkets so automatically disqualified from matching anything in the book.
  17. I was older than I care to admit to you all when I almost flipped an OS-4 over backwards onto myself, believe it or not. I still don't know exactly how it happened, but I think it was a perfect storm of wrong gear, a furrow, too much throttle, hard on the clutch, and most importantly here, bravado and the ignorance of youth. For every one of the miserable crusty curmudgeons here saying "well I survived my youth", perhaps a moment to reflect on the irony of that statement is in order. Enough people, old and young, ignorant and experienced, have died in this country from farm accidents, including with tractors. Obviously those who died are not around to putz around on internet forums, but just because they can't say "it happened to me" doesn't mean it didn't happen. I come back time and time again to something a flight instructor told me when I proudly proclaimed that I'd read dozens of accident reports and they were almost exclusively pilot error. I'm paraphrasing, but he said "You're halfway to understanding. You have seen that the cause was pilot error, but you've neglected that in many of those cases the pilot had hundreds, if not thousands of hours of logged experience. So, yes it was pilot error, but if they can make those mistakes, so can you, so never let your guard down. Dumb mistake or not, don't think you're ever above making a 'dumb' mistake"
  18. Background: I purchased a Red Power sleeve and piston kit about ten years ago, prior to their being bought out by Reliance. I'm just now rebuilding the engine, my first engine build. I was assembling the pistons and rings over the weekend and mis-fit a ring to a piston (partially in two grooves). When I went to take it out, it broke. So, I'm on the hunt for a replacement. Not surprisingly a single ring is not readily available, but single cylinder sets are. So are four-cylinder sets. However, there are more questions at this point than answers. My kit has pistons with three grooves and three rings. The set has, for each cylinder, an oil control ring (three piece), a phosphated middle compression ring with a bevel on the upper inner, and an upper compression ring that's chromed. The kits that I'm finding all seem to have four rings. Question 1: What is more common generally in an engine, three rings or four? Question 2: Will my engine have any kind of degraded performance or noticeable issues by having a three-ring piston? I'm reading more than I ever thought I would about piston rings. I have read about "never, ever spiral a ring onto a piston". Well, I did, then I read this. So, I then removed one unbroken compression ring and there's noticeable wave to it when sitting on a flat surface. Question 3: If I "spiraled on" all of my rings, should I replace them all, or will it be negligible to performance? Cost is not a consideration here. Hastings and Total Seal each have kits available for this engine, albeit imperfect matches. Like I mentioned above, they look like they're for four-groove pistons. That in and of itself is not a huge concern. I don't mind chucking a ring as long as the kit contains the one (or ones) I need. However it appears Hastings offers kits with a "reverse torsion taper face" second (and third) compression ring that have bevels on the lower inner, whereas the one I broke was a conventional positive torsion ring with the bevel on the upper inner. I looked into the "reverse torsion taper face" and this appears to be unique to Hastings. I believe the Total Seal product is a conventional torsion ring with the bevel on the upper inner, as there's nothing mentioned in their documentation about "reverse torsion". Question 4: What are your thoughts and experiences with this "reverse torsion, tapered face"? Is it a gimmick? Question 5: What have I forgotten to ask?
  19. Post the IH part numbers here, and quote this post. I have an IH bearing book and a seal cross reference. I'll help you out if I can.
  20. I still think the idea of swapping around the plug wires is good. Nothing obvious to the eyes, easily reversed when you want to run the tractor.
  21. I broke a compression ring today. Does anyone know of a good source for a less-than-full-kit piston rings for a C113.
  22. My mother had a genuine fear of the narrow front Farmall C killing my father. And there were enough true stories going around of farmers killed on equipment, that I understood the risk at the base of that fear. I would start with a couple of true stories. Not to shatter their innocence necessarily, but because some honest fear is healthy -it'll keep one alive. Have they seen you operate the fuel shutoff? That would be a quick option. You could also swap around plug wires when you put it away. Looking over the tractor, they wouldn't really know what was wrong when they tried to fire it up and it coughs and sputters.
  • Create New...