Update on 560 would Not Start

[Mark (EC,IN)]

I asked about a reduction starter for a 560 a few days ago in the post below.

I don't think I need one, but I wasn't used to the tractor not starting (I was pissed).

As I mentioned in the previous post, it moved snow one day and then, a couple of days later, it would not start.

This is what followed:

I load tested the battery, and it was not quite up to snuff; it was 9 years old, so I got a new battery.

Still no start (still pissed)

Decided what the ****, was going to give it a shot of ether.

Took the mushroon looking top off the air cleaner, and sprayed starting fluid right down the intake pipe above the hood ..................still no start (still pissed)
Figured I had an electrical problem, was sure the tractor would have fired on ether (the good Deere 80%) ............(still pissed)

The temperature was still in single digits.................. called neighbor to scrape my driveway!

I'd put two bottles of HEAT in it when I put it up in November, but I put another bottle in this morning.

Warmed up to the twenties this afternoon, and it started.

I learned two things out of this deal:

1. Two bottles of HEAT is not enough

2. And, ether will not pass through an oil bath air filter

I'd wondered about the aircleaner, and so I Googled it, and Google AI said: no I could not do it the way I did, it needed to go behind the air cleaner (between the air cleaner and the carburetor).

Today it started like is should with a little choke and fired right up.

Anyway, I can move snow.

 

https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/166707-560-wouldnt-start/

 

[Reichow7120]

12 minutes ago, Mark (EC,IN) said:

I asked about a reduction starter for a 560 a few days ago in the post below.

I don't think I need one, but I wasn't used to the tractor not starting (I was pissed).

As I mentioned in the previous post, it moved snow one day and then, a couple of days later, it would not start.

This is what followed:

I load tested the battery, and it was not quite up to snuff; it was 9 years old, so I got a new battery.

Still no start (still pissed)

Decided what the ****, was going to give it a shot of ether.

Took the mushroon looking top off the air cleaner, and sprayed starting fluid right down the intake pipe above the hood ..................still no start (still pissed)
Figured I had an electrical problem, was sure the tractor would have fired on ether (the good Deere 80%) ............(still pissed)

The temperature was still in single digits.................. called neighbor to scrape my driveway!

I'd put two bottles of HEAT in it when I put it up in November, but I put another bottle in this morning.

Warmed up to the twenties this afternoon, and it started.

I learned two things out of this deal:

1. Two bottles of HEAT is not enough

2. And, ether will not pass through an oil bath air filter

I'd wondered about the aircleaner, and so I Googled it, and Google AI said: no I could not do it the way I did, it needed to go behind the air cleaner (between the air cleaner and the carburetor).

Today it started like is should with a little choke and fired right up.

Anyway, I can move snow.

 

https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/166707-560-wouldnt-start/

 

It's a pain but I usually slide the rubber hose behind the choke butterfly on the carburetor and spray in there if im giving it some ether.

Know your pain. 

Couple weeks ago I was wanting to use my H to load a semi load of corn to go to town. Granted it was -2 that morning. Think i could get it running that morning? Nope. Wouldn't start. I had it running the day before with no issues. 

Ended up that whole morning ended up being a cluster and between everything. Never got any corn hauled. ( place i was hauling to closed at noon that day)

Went and fooled with it a little more after lunch and it fired right up. Haven't had a issue since. Go figure. 

[stronger800]

Ether will absolutely pass through an oil bath air cleaner. I probably have not used a full can in the last 20 years, but when I spray it, it’s through the top of an oil bath system.   I’m a  big fan of tank style block  heaters. Spreading manure and feeding cows growing up, no starts were not really an option 

[brahamfireman]

1 hour ago, stronger800 said:

Ether will absolutely pass through an oil bath air cleaner. I probably have not used a full can in the last 20 years, but when I spray it, it’s through the top of an oil bath system.   I’m a  big fan of tank style block  heaters. Spreading manure and feeding cows growing up, no starts were not really an option 

Spray our 1650 oliver all the time and it goes right in through the oil bath too. It takes awhile longer than no filter but it does get there. 

[rustred]

3 hours ago, Mark (EC,IN) said:

I asked about a reduction starter for a 560 a few days ago in the post below.

I don't think I need one, but I wasn't used to the tractor not starting (I was pissed).

As I mentioned in the previous post, it moved snow one day and then, a couple of days later, it would not start.

This is what followed:

I load tested the battery, and it was not quite up to snuff; it was 9 years old, so I got a new battery.

Still no start (still pissed)

Decided what the ****, was going to give it a shot of ether.

Took the mushroon looking top off the air cleaner, and sprayed starting fluid right down the intake pipe above the hood ..................still no start (still pissed)
Figured I had an electrical problem, was sure the tractor would have fired on ether (the good Deere 80%) ............(still pissed)

The temperature was still in single digits.................. called neighbor to scrape my driveway!

I'd put two bottles of HEAT in it when I put it up in November, but I put another bottle in this morning.

Warmed up to the twenties this afternoon, and it started.

I learned two things out of this deal:

1. Two bottles of HEAT is not enough

2. And, ether will not pass through an oil bath air filter

I'd wondered about the aircleaner, and so I Googled it, and Google AI said: no I could not do it the way I did, it needed to go behind the air cleaner (between the air cleaner and the carburetor).

Today it started like is should with a little choke and fired right up.

Anyway, I can move snow.

 

https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/166707-560-wouldnt-start/

 

total crock,... when u use starting fliud you spray it in the intake above the hood.  but that stuff should not be used anyhow, lucky it was not a diesel engine with glow plugs. in cold weather they need to be plugged in or warmed up somehow like in a shop .  cant blame the tractor. A I is wrong also ! ihc was out long before AI.

[stronger800]

I have used glow plugs and either….in a pinch.  Just gotta let the plugs cycle and be out, and the engine cranking Before you squirt the bad stuff 

[HydroTek]

D-282 Glow plugs and ether every other day , feeding in the winter 
just gotta learn how much to use 

[Mark (EC,IN)]

7 hours ago, rustred said:

total crock,... when u use starting fliud you spray it in the intake above the hood.  but that stuff should not be used anyhow, lucky it was not a diesel engine with glow plugs. in cold weather they need to be plugged in or warmed up somehow like in a shop .  cant blame the tractor. A I is wrong also ! ihc was out long before AI.

I've had others say that you can shoot ether through an oil bath,  so I guess that wasn't it. I just figured that when I shot ether into the intake, and the tractor didn't react at all, I didn't have a spark.

Whatever,  it's running now.

[Diesel Doctor]

If I remember right, Heet is nothing more than ethanol or methanol.

But ethanol will also draw humidity out of the air and it then collects in your tank. 

When saturated, the water will separate and settle to the bottom of the tank and freeze.

So yes, Heet will melt ice in your system, to a point. 

Then it causes problems itself.

As others have said, ether goes through an oil bath air cleaner.

No start on ether means no spark.

It may be time for a tune-up.

If you don't burn a tank of fuel a year, drain the tank every fall and use the gas in something else.

Then put in a fresh supply of non-ethanol and it should run fine all winter, gas wise.

Take it from a lot of us, Getting pissed don't help. We have tried and know all about it?

 

[560Dennis]

I find it takes extreme temperature to sort the issues , I have had my share of issues, but just makes me a better problem solver when it comes up again. 
A cup of hot cocoa and English muffin and time to enjoy the enlightenment.

[Mark (EC,IN)]

2 hours ago, Diesel Doctor said:

 

No start on ether means no spark.

 

 

That was my first thought.......obviously I was wrong 

I took the mushroom-looking top off and sprayed a solid stream of Deere 80 proof right down the pipe into the air cleaner.  The tractor never fired once.

I then waited a couple of days, it warmed up twenty-some degrees,  and dumped another bottle of Heat in it,  and it fired right off a few hours later.

Not sure what the problem was,  but I have moved some stuff around, so it is now in a shed with electricity.

Also,  it gets 75-100 hours a year, so it goes through several tanks of fuel........the fuel does have ethanol in it though.

[Binderoid]

Or, it was already  flooded...

[HydroTek]

Give half throttle -- pull the choke -- then crank
Should fire in a couple or three compressions
Push the choke in and crank again
Be ready to "feather" the choke to get past the initial warm up 

Most gas engines will use this procedure -- we all been there 

Also the drip hole on the bottom of the carb needs to work
there is a felt filter in there that will gun up and become a solid plug
This needs to allow the excess fuel to drain 

[stronger800]

Idk anything about a gas tractor, but it seems to me that he had no spark, then on a warmer day he did.  Frost and cold effecting an ignition part perhaps? I grew up just pro active putting cap/rotor/wires/condenser on gas vehicles every so often. 

[TroyDairy]

Its ok mark.  My 464 gas is crap starting vs any diesel we have on farm here.  Flood, miss, no fire, finally snort of either and maybe will get going.  4 or 5 mechanic (all well respected onnolder gas) and new engine, 2 carbs, maybe 3, points, pertronix, 2 wire sets, 8 12 maybe plugs, valve checks, timing checks, several batteries etc etc.  It never is a promise it will run ever.  Dads 1st new tractor.  When he is gone we may just sell it since nearly useless

[Mark (EC,IN)]

1 hour ago, TroyDairy said:

Its ok mark.  My 464 gas is crap starting vs any diesel we have on farm here.  Flood, miss, no fire, finally snort of either and maybe will get going.  4 or 5 mechanic (all well respected onnolder gas) and new engine, 2 carbs, maybe 3, points, pertronix, 2 wire sets, 8 12 maybe plugs, valve checks, timing checks, several batteries etc etc.  It never is a promise it will run ever.  Dads 1st new tractor.  When he is gone we may just sell it since nearly useless

That is part of what mystified me on this. I've owned this tractor for over 50 years, and this is the first time it has let me down in cold weather; it's always been the go-to in cold weather.  That, and the fact that it started just a couple of days prior, when it was around zero.

Several brought up ignition parts,  but it's had an electric ignition for years.     As many have said,  it's "cold-natured."  I'd have to use one hand for the throttle and the steering wheel,  and the other could not leave the choke for a while,  but it started and ran.

I thought it had to be something electrical when I shot starting fluid straight into the intake, and it didn't fire once,  just cranked like before. Then when it started a couple of days later, I assumed (incorrectly, I guess)  that the ether was not getting through the oil bath air cleaner.  

And then,  when it warmed to around twenty, it fired right off.....I'm sure the cold had something to do with it,   but not sure what.  

[rustred]

1 hour ago, Mark (EC,IN) said:

That is part of what mystified me on this. I've owned this tractor for over 50 years, and this is the first time it has let me down in cold weather; it's always been the go-to in cold weather.  That, and the fact that it started just a couple of days prior, when it was around zero.

Several brought up ignition parts,  but it's had an electric ignition for years.     As many have said,  it's "cold-natured."  I'd have to use one hand for the throttle and the steering wheel,  and the other could not leave the choke for a while,  but it started and ran.

I thought it had to be something electrical when I shot starting fluid straight into the intake, and it didn't fire once,  just cranked like before. Then when it started a couple of days later, I assumed (incorrectly, I guess)  that the ether was not getting through the oil bath air cleaner.  

And then,  when it warmed to around twenty, it fired right off.....I'm sure the cold had something to do with it,   but not sure what.  

i am sure the cold was your enemy. that's pretty cold for a gas tractor to start not being plugged in. diesel totally out of the question . and starting fluid has to spray in a fine mist to work.

[HydroTek]

Had a 400 that would not fire as long as I held the key in start position (switch was replaced) -- but soon as I let go , it would fire 

Too much draw on the starter to allow enough 'power' to the coil 

Wound up putting a relay on the ignition to bypass the tractor wiring when cranking
worked great , tho it was only a work around -- not a repair 

When I sold the tractor the relay was still on there -- temporarily permanent farm repair  

[Mark (EC,IN)]

3 hours ago, rustred said:

i am sure the cold was your enemy. that's pretty cold for a gas tractor to start not being plugged in. diesel totally out of the question . and starting fluid has to spray in a fine mist to work.

Off topic,  but I used to have the blade on a 1086 that started at 8 degrees one night without being plugged in or using starting fluid.  The wife and I came home, and the lane had drifted shut,  no snow, just wind.  My 4x4 truck struggled, and there was no way her car would have made it.  The 1086 sounded unhappy,  but it started at that temperature.

[Binderoid]

Did you  actually  confirm  that it had spark  at the time of the no- start? 

[Matt Kirsch]

No doubt this is a tuning issue. Like I said in the other thread, our 560 was depended on to start every day in all weather, and it was very reliable. The key is a good hot spark and a quick hand on the choke.

Was it ever determined if the tractor was cranking well?

[Mark (EC,IN)]

4 hours ago, Binderoid said:

Did you  actually  confirm  that it had spark  at the time of the no- start? 

Actually,  no.  By this time, I was cold and went to the house (it was close to zero outside).

I just assumed it didn't when it didn't so much as go  "blurp" when I filled its intake full of ether.

[Mark (EC,IN)]

1 hour ago, Matt Kirsch said:

No doubt this is a tuning issue. Like I said in the other thread, our 560 was depended on to start every day in all weather, and it was very reliable. The key is a good hot spark and a quick hand on the choke.

Was it ever determined if the tractor was cranking well?

Yes,  it was cranking alright. 

I said in the original post that it seemed a bit slow,  but when I load-checked the battery, it was alright.  I put a new one in it anyway,  because the old one was 9 years old.  I figured I had gotten my money's worth,  and no better than I liked rolling the heathouser back,  and taking the shields off,  I put a new one in while I was there.

That said,  it cranked about the same with the new battery.

As I said above,  Part of what mystified me on this. I've owned this tractor for over 50 years, and this is the first time it has let me down in cold weather; it's always been the go-to in cold weather.  That, and the fact that it started just a couple of days prior, when it was around zero.

Several brought up ignition parts,  but it's had an electric ignition for years.     As many have said,  it's "cold-natured."   I know that is true.  I had to use one hand for the throttle and the steering wheel,  and the other could not leave the choke for a while,  but before, it started and ran.

[IHC_1470]

There is a possibility that you have a soldier joint issue in the ignition system that is temp related. If it ever acts up again a few basic test would verify that.

[Binderoid]

3 hours ago, Mark (EC,IN) said:

Actually,  no.  By this time, I was cold and went to the house (it was close to zero outside).

I just assumed it didn't when it didn't so much as go  "blurp" when I filled its intake full of ether.

Just throwing it out there, there has been a couple  times  during  my life  where  electronic  stuff will seem to hibernate  in extreme  cold.  Most recently (this morning) my S10 with  the  2.2 will not start at zero ⁰ F.  It will roll over, albeit  pretty stiff,  with 10w oil, but  not fire. Have to put the jump  box on there for a couple  extra millivolts,  and she will  start. Happened  twice already  this week.  3 degrees,  no problem.  Also earlier this week,  I had the charger on it with a drop light for  an extension cord,  and I noticed that the led bulb  did not work.  It took so long to get it started that day that when  the temp got up to above zero, the light came  on. 

Conversely, the Super C is so stiff in this cold, it will come to a complete halt between compression strokes,  and start in about 1-1/2  revolutions..... with those nasty, 30- year old points.