For the water supply experts

[New Englander]

I know there are qualified municipal water system operators here so I'm asking for comments.

We live very close to the former Pease AFB. During its life the base used plenty of firefighting foam both for practice and for actual events. The PFAS in the foam is just one of the many contaminates released into the environment during the cold war but it's the only ones that are classified as forever chemicals. We have two shallow wells: one supplies the house and the other is a former irrigation well that just fills the pool now. Since the house well is shallow and subject to bacteria we have UV sterilization along with a sediment filter. An Air Force contractor regularly tests the house well for PFAS and two monitoring wells they installed on the property. We don't currently have any exceedance the last one marginally over EPA limits occurred in 2018. The Air Force is under pressure to finalize all remediation.

We've been offered two solutions:

They'll hook us up to municipal water which is the Portsmouth city system. I don't think they realize the difficulty and extent of that solution as it's over 1000' to the supply and the line that they say will be buried 5' below grade will have to go under two culverts on the causeway that's the ROW drive to our house. They estimate the water bill will be $500. +/- per year. Most government estimates are usually wrong by half in my experience.

The second solution is they'll install a POE system consisting of three tanks with carbon filters. After installation future monitoring and filter replacements will be on us with an estimated annual cost approaching nine grand/year!

I suspect we could get a lawyer involved but the municipal hookup seems the best option especially when we finally decide to sell.

I have reservations about the municipal system as the hydrant at the street is a red top or low pressure. They are green, yellow or red. I'm going to call the water manager today. He's an acquaintance and should give me the straight scoop. Municipal water line was installed around 1960.

Thoughts?

[hardtail]

I'd do municipal supply, activated charcoal can remove some things but I wouldn't trust toxic chemicals. 

[brahamfireman]

I'd take the municipal water in a heartbeat.  I'm guessing the air force base is footing the bill to get you water? I wouldn’t care how hard it is to get it there,  if it's in the AF dime.

[Mudfly]

As a second opinion, I'd call a local water treatment company.  We just had one out to the house and while they were willing to sell us pretty much anything under the sun ($20k whole house reverse osmosis, etc), but in the end we are likely just going to go with a water softener to take the calcium out of our well water.  They could at least take a closer look at the options presented and maybe provide alternatives that you could potentially bring back to your Air Force contacts.

If that doesn't work out, as much as I hate to say it, I would also go municipal and then have some treatment or filter to remove the fluoride and anything else from the water.  I dislike any hook ups to the 'grid', but probably the better option in you situation.  PFAS is nothing to mess around with.

[acem]

If possible, get the city water for the house and keep the well water for garden, etc.  You could still use it in an emergency.

Don't trust the city water to be safe either.  Stuff happens.  But city water is by and large very safe.  

From a documentary named Dr Strangelove

 

[vtfireman85]

@dale560

[dale560]

The red top hydrant just denotes the flow not pressure. If my memory is right red is 500 gpm and orange is 1000 gpm.

the municipal water would be best but their treatment technique might not remove pfas/pfos particles. And from experience bill will probably be 100 a month. Usually a initial fee of 50 or so a month then extra water used tacked on,

as far as whole house the reverse osmosis is the only way so far I think to remove particles. There are different types of filtration all called RO. The first two stages micro filtration and ultra filtration are not going to remove it because of pore size. Nano filtration is a higher pressure smaller pore size. And then RO is the best but only used for seawater and brackish water because of expense. 
the plant I run now uses chemical coagulation and precipitation of minerals and particles, then a anthracite sand filter, then 80% of water is sent to nano skids with around 20% bypass to system. 
 

with this arrangement we add chemicals like baking soda, soda ash and caustic soda to raise ph and alkalinity that was removed in the process.

the water I send out the door is tested by me every day or coworker on off days. The total dissolved solids are around 280 mg/l. This is the purity or cloudiness of suspended particles and ph of 7.5, 0ppm of iron or fe, 0.02 of manganese. 

if you can check out the water supply water quality it ccr report. They are required to have it posted usually online. Snap a pic and put it up here I will explain it. Or when I have time I will look it up.

again I would go with the water hook up. With trenchless boring nowadays length of cut doesn’t matter.

[dale560]

As far as keeping old systems. Most water supply systems require check valves now. So your old system would just be on standby and when needed flip witch to turn it on.

i know our system here in North Dakota supplies the meter, pressure adj valve and check valve. Most plumbers just find a spot where original water was and hook on right there in house or we use meter pits and anything after the pit is your deal. 
 

Don’t worry about Flouride in water that is one of the safest but now with crazy people out there the most vilified chemical in water. The polymer that almost every system uses to settle water needs an actual cancer causing report every year. That and caustic soda(lye,drain cleaner) or hydrochloric acids used for cleaning or ph control are worse than Flouride. Although the Flouride acid is dangerous before dilution

[just Dave]

RO systems use a lot of filters that need monthly changing in some cases. I have only worked with very large RO s so residential could be a bit better. Typically a 1” line , soft copper, is run to the house. You might need a bit larger for 1000’. Make a strong effort to get the meter pit at your house so any leaks are not on your bill! The municipal supply is required to put out an annual water quality report, and that will list all controlled contaminants and there quantity. 

[Lars (midessa)]

As much as I detest government, I’d go with the municipal tap. I would insist on copper line from the main, all the way to your structure, do not settle for any type of pvc, cpvc, pex, etc. And install an RO filtration for your living quarters. No need for a ‘whole house system, just a couple drinking water taps is sufficient.

Be sure, on your monthly bill, you do not get charged for sewer, unless you hook up to the municipal sewer system also.

[dale560]

You are not going to get anybody  to run a 1000 ft copper line. They use all poly for the line leads and for something that long they would run a 2 inch to meter pit tha a 1 inch supply to house. A 2 inch would give you ample supply for another hookup on that line . Maybe the government in a situation like yours would run copper, but it is frowned upon know there is copper and lead tests for water.

Here in North Dakota where the freeze thaw cycles get violent on pvc pipe the newer poly holds up well. There is a new product called munici pex that is made in a different mode than normal pex to always return to original form.

the pvc pipe from 1975 is what fails in our system. Most of the 2 inch was plowed in but the glue joints fail. Not from the glue but the bell will break where it expands from original pipe diameter. Always breaks from flexing at a glued bell joint. Or if pipe lies on a rock it will eventually crack. 

[New Englander]

9 hours ago, dale560 said:

You are not going to get anybody  to run a 1000 ft copper line. They use all poly for the line leads and for something that long they would run a 2 inch to meter pit tha a 1 inch supply to house. A 2 inch would give you ample supply for another hookup on that line . Maybe the government in a situation like yours would run copper, but it is frowned upon know there is copper and lead tests for water.

Here in North Dakota where the freeze thaw cycles get violent on pvc pipe the newer poly holds up well. There is a new product called munici pex that is made in a different mode than normal pex to always return to original form.

the pvc pipe from 1975 is what fails in our system. Most of the 2 inch was plowed in but the glue joints fail. Not from the glue but the bell will break where it expands from original pipe diameter. Always breaks from flexing at a glued bell joint. Or if pipe lies on a rock it will eventually crack. 

My acquaintance in Portsmouth works is well versed in the issue and answered my questions.

He, as everyone here said, go with the municipal connection as you don't want a water treatment setup in your basement. He said my town, Newington, will insist on a 1.5" copper. He said not to worry about crossing the water, they'll find a way. He's familiar with our house as our daughters were on the same teams and we alternated driving, etc.

Portsmouth water rates are competitive, here's an estimate. I'll find a quality report and post it. We may not have the expense of the softener. There's no sewer connection.

 

 

[New Englander]

16 hours ago, dale560 said:

The red top hydrant just denotes the flow not pressure. If my memory is right red is 500 gpm and orange is 1000 gpm.

the municipal water would be best but their treatment technique might not remove pfas/pfos particles. And from experience bill will probably be 100 a month. Usually a initial fee of 50 or so a month then extra water used tacked on,

as far as whole house the reverse osmosis is the only way so far I think to remove particles. There are different types of filtration all called RO. The first two stages micro filtration and ultra filtration are not going to remove it because of pore size. Nano filtration is a higher pressure smaller pore size. And then RO is the best but only used for seawater and brackish water because of expense. 
the plant I run now uses chemical coagulation and precipitation of minerals and particles, then a anthracite sand filter, then 80% of water is sent to nano skids with around 20% bypass to system. 
 

with this arrangement we add chemicals like baking soda, soda ash and caustic soda to raise ph and alkalinity that was removed in the process.

the water I send out the door is tested by me every day or coworker on off days. The total dissolved solids are around 280 mg/l. This is the purity or cloudiness of suspended particles and ph of 7.5, 0ppm of iron or fe, 0.02 of manganese. 

if you can check out the water supply water quality it ccr report. They are required to have it posted usually online. Snap a pic and put it up here I will explain it. Or when I have time I will look it up.

again I would go with the water hook up. With trenchless boring nowadays length of cut doesn’t matter.

The flow markings were explained to me. Here's 2024, 2025 not found. PFAS mitigation system being installed.

 

[New Englander]

[Gearclash]

Not sure why copper is being recommended for water line. Municipal water implies the presence of chlorine treatment and chlorine will eventually erode through copper. 

[acem]

When I  suggested keeping your well for lawn/garden and backup I didn't mean to keep it hooked up to your house system.  Just having a frost proof hydrant with water available is very handy when the water goes off

[acem]

And I might add.

Since you will have a 100ft water line, install the pressure regulator at your house, not at the meter 1000 ft away. This will help maintain better water pressure at your house and give you the option of an unregulated water line. 

Unregulated water hoses at my place are over 100 psi. Very handy for washing down equipment. The water tower in on top of a big hill and my place is near the bottom of the system.

 

[AKwelder]

At work they have contamination issues from fire training along the pipeline. They are using charcoal filter (called GAC filters) and thuy do need maintenance on a periodic basis. Also one beca,e obsolete and had to be replaced. Go with the municipal water, it will be less cost to you in the long run.

 

we also install copper for water lines. Highly preferred over plastic, you can hook a thaw box to it if there are issues. And type K is tough. 
 

your frost may not be as severe but we run two line and make it so we can circulate water which eliminates freeze ups since moving water does not freeze. 
 

I would definitely keep the wells for washing cars and watering the lawn, but not connect to the house or water system

good luck

[dale560]

4 hours ago, New Englander said:

My acquaintance in Portsmouth works is well versed in the issue and answered my questions.

He, as everyone here said, go with the municipal connection as you don't want a water treatment setup in your basement. He said my town, Newington, will insist on a 1.5" copper. He said not to worry about crossing the water, they'll find a way. He's familiar with our house as our daughters were on the same teams and we alternated driving, etc.

Portsmouth water rates are competitive, here's an estimate. I'll find a quality report and post it. We may not have the expense of the softener. There's no sewer connection.

 

 

 I am surprised at the copper just for the price of the materials. In my hometown they want copper and it works well here for short runs. But all the towns north and west of us remove the copper as their soil conditions eat it up rapidly. Modern poly pipe is very strong one easy to work with.

[just Dave]

Service lines are copper for anti microbial properties.  The code was made before pex was born.  I do not doubt that there are plastics that are more durable than copper, especially in regards to corrosion. 
Our power/water provider was also my employer, pre retirement. I was based in power production, but my maintenance crews did some work for the water division, as a result I have seen the inside of large water lines, it’s something you can’t unsee. There is all kinds of stuff growing in about every old water pipe I’ve seen inside, plastic , iron and copper. 
I run a good sediment filter on my incoming potable line for peace of mind.

[dale560]

Running a water filter on a treated potable line can cause issues. On an untreated line or basic well line it will plug up often enough to be changed out regularly. On a treated filtered system unless you are religious on filter change intervals you will eventually have smell and taste problems where filter is getting full of organic and chlorine combo is killing it off.

we continually run into this problem. The system I work for sends water 60 to 90 miles one way. Through holding tanks and resorvoir stations with pumps. We treat with mono chloramine. Mono lasts longer in system than chlorine. I am responsible to keep the mono in the sweet spot of a 3.5 to 5 / 1 mix off ammonia and chlorine. The periodic table gives us the number of needed to mix. If you get it to high above 5:1 mix you make the tri and di chloromines which are smelly and lead to cancer causing stuff we test for.

[New Englander]

Good thoughts all. I'm thinking of leaving the well connected to the garage. I'm also thinking I'll leave the UV sterilizer connected to the house as it's cheap to maintain and does not restrict flow; I don't see a downside to killing any bacteria that slips through however unlikely. I've heard of boil water mandates in the news, never here but $hit happens.

An issue not addressed yet is the pool water which we fill from a different well. They don't test it but have tested the pool water. I'd like them to continue that testing but I don't think it's a requirement they have. The thought on testing pool water is that apparently PFAS don't evaporate, truly forever chemicals, and will build to unacceptable levels over time as water is replaced.

The good thing is that remediation is taking place at the original sites - fire fighting practice and actual crash sites, so levels of PFAS should in theory drop.

[midnightman]

I hauled water from the local municipal well for years to our 2500 gallon in ground concrete cistern. Couldn’t wait to find a better solution as we’d either be running out at the most inconvenient time, or I would be cursing hauling ing the winter when it’s -30. 
South of town has the option of rural municipal hook up which was about $15000 at the time. With us being north of town and in close proximity to a large valley they said there would never be a line run our direction so we drilled a well. Ended up being 385’ deep with plenty of water, but has so much iron that I always joke that I could probably take it to the shop and weld it. Installed the biggest iron breaker and softener that our plumber has ever installed. Water is OK now, but not great by any means.  Looked into a whole house RO system. Going to be somewhere in the $20000 range.

If the opportunity was available, the municipal hookup would be a no brainer for me. Hopefully decent treated water at a cost per use. No maintenance, no unexpected bills when something goes wrong, and if something goes wrong I could make a phone call and let somebody else worry about fixing it.

We pump from the well into the old cistern as a reserve and settling tank before it is pumped into the house. This is what I have to start with before any treatment.

[dale560]

33 minutes ago, midnightman said:

I hauled water from the local municipal well for years to our 2500 gallon in ground concrete cistern. Couldn’t wait to find a better solution as we’d either be running out at the most inconvenient time, or I would be cursing hauling ing the winter when it’s -30. 
South of town has the option of rural municipal hook up which was about $15000 at the time. With us being north of town and in close proximity to a large valley they said there would never be a line run our direction so we drilled a well. Ended up being 385’ deep with plenty of water, but has so much iron that I always joke that I could probably take it to the shop and weld it. Installed the biggest iron breaker and softener that our plumber has ever installed. Water is OK now, but not great by any means.  Looked into a whole house RO system. Going to be somewhere in the $20000 range.

If the opportunity was available, the municipal hookup would be a no brainer for me. Hopefully decent treated water at a cost per use. No maintenance, no unexpected bills when something goes wrong, and if something goes wrong I could make a phone call and let somebody else worry about fixing it.

We pump from the well into the old cistern as a reserve and settling tank before it is pumped into the house. This is what I have to start with before any treatment.

Pump a bit of liquid chlorine into you settling tank. A small diaphragm pump a 50 gal tank of certified bleach and the looks of it 5 ppm will settle the iron faster. If you can build an aerator system before tank it will make iron settle . The water I treat is 5 ppm fe (iron) 1 ppm manganese and about 4 ppm hydrogen sulfide plus 1 ppm ammonia. The H2s and ammonia make any treatment harder. So I try to hit it with 4 to 6 ppm gas chlorine after areation this makes iron settle better.

[midnightman]

1 hour ago, dale560 said:

Pump a bit of liquid chlorine into you settling tank. A small diaphragm pump a 50 gal tank of certified bleach and the looks of it 5 ppm will settle the iron faster. If you can build an aerator system before tank it will make iron settle . The water I treat is 5 ppm fe (iron) 1 ppm manganese and about 4 ppm hydrogen sulfide plus 1 ppm ammonia. The H2s and ammonia make any treatment harder. So I try to hit it with 4 to 6 ppm gas chlorine after areation this makes iron settle better.

Thanks for the advice. I’ll try some experimenting with that in the warmer months. Right now everything is under 4’ of snow with only outdoor access to any part of that system. Right now it’s kinda set up so it gets a small amount of aeration as I’ve got the input hose from the well pump set up high in the tank so that it kinda sprays into the tank. I suppose that as a more permanent solution, I could put some sort of metering system on it for the chlorine as it is on a float switch.

The whole system was kinda added onto from both sides when we built our new house as all we had initially was the cistern with a jet pump in the old house.