Baler knotter tool

[Binderoid]

Was wondering if there was any of you with an extensive library could find the part number of this tool. 
   Just stumbled upon a YouTube video  with this device ... I never knew such a thing existed. 
   I still can't transfer URL numbers from my phone , I would appreciate it if you googled this video. 

[Gearclash]

Live link to what I found.

Very different techniques to check and adjust these knotters than what is used for the more modern knotter with a knife/scraper arm.

 

[cumminstinkerer]

I'll follow, didn't watch the vid but anything to make setting up the knotters easier I am game for, I have a 47 with the later twine knife setup, plus there are a couple of 430 around me that I work on from time to time, oh and a 46 with the old school knives

[Binderoid]

1 hour ago, cumminstinkerer said:

I'll follow, didn't watch the vid but anything to make setting up the knotters easier I am game for, I have a 47 with the later twine knife setup, plus there are a couple of 430 around me that I work on from time to time, oh and a 46 with the old school knives

It really wouldn't be impossible to make one , doesn't look like much more than a hacksaw blade with a bunch of notches cut in it, that fit in various gaps and distances... as long as you have a perfectly set up and operational baler... I already knew some the dimensions as they were going through the procedure; I thought I might make a simpler version of it. 
   That, and I'd like to find that little holder for mower guards so you can pound the ledger pin out. 
  Have to shake my head sometimes at the theories floated as to why they don't tie. Never saw a more misunderstood device with so few moving parts. 

[Matt Kirsch]

2 hours ago, Binderoid said:

Have to shake my head sometimes at the theories floated as to why they don't tie. Never saw a more misunderstood device with so few moving parts.

Well I wish someone at the dealer had understood them when we owned an IH baler.

Then again how do you troubleshoot when the baler is literally doing EVERYTHING in the troubleshooting section of the manual at the same time?

I wish you'd been around to take a crack at our balers when we had them.

 

[Binderoid]

23 minutes ago, Matt Kirsch said:

Well I wish someone at the dealer had understood them when we owned an IH baler.

Then again how do you troubleshoot when the baler is literally doing EVERYTHING in the troubleshooting section of the manual at the same time?

I wish you'd been around to take a crack at our balers when we had them.

 

I find that troubling as well... the number of  people that  are claiming that their dealers were clueless. 
   I had one tech tell me that the reason my baler wasn't trying was because of the kinks in the twine... you know, some places in the ball there are these fine, evenly spaced kinks from the winding process... the kind that disappear as soon as the twine passes through the tensioner...

...so what was I supposed to do, unwind half a ball of twine to get the kinks out... ?  

[HydroTek]

They guys that know how to work on these balers are gonna be in their 70's

the kids won't have a clue

[Matt Kirsch]

6 minutes ago, HydroTek said:

They guys that know how to work on these balers are gonna be in their 70's

the kids won't have a clue

They didn't have a clue in the 80's or the 90's either.

[Absent Minded Farmer]

16 hours ago, Binderoid said:

Was wondering if there was any of you with an extensive library could find the part number of this tool. 
   Just stumbled upon a YouTube video  with this device ... I never knew such a thing existed. 
   I still can't transfer URL numbers from my phone , I would appreciate it if you googled this video. 

I've searched & searched since posting that vid & nothing. Heard from a couple old servicemen that recall them & only one that used one. Otherwise, no part number, no one still has one laying in their tool box. The only guy that may find one/ might have run across one wants nothing to do with it.

Also, they don't work with the 45, 50T, 55T, 425 &/or maybe All-Twines, from what little I have learned about it.

Best that can be done is to have one fab'd up. If you or someone wants to recreate one & would like a better picture, let me know & I'll post a scan.

Mike

[Matt Kirsch]

You know, this whole time I thought we were talking about the dynamite and the detonator....

[hippy5488]

4 hours ago, Binderoid said:

I find that troubling as well... the number of  people that  are claiming that their dealers were clueless. 
   I had one tech tell me that the reason my baler wasn't trying was because of the kinks in the twine... you know, some places in the ball there are these fine, evenly spaced kinks from the winding process... the kind that disappear as soon as the twine passes through the tensioner...

...so what was I supposed to do, unwind half a ball of twine to get the kinks out... ?  

been around ih balers my whole life. in the last  10 years ive thrown more balls of twine away so baler wouldnt miss a tie. than i have had to adjust anything on the baler for it to tie

[Chester5732]

4 minutes ago, hippy5488 said:

been around ih balers my whole life. in the last  10 years ive thrown more balls of twine away so baler wouldnt miss a tie. than i have had to adjust anything on the baler for it to tie

I quit buying the cheap twine years ago and eliminated the twine problem.  

[acem]

I was using my neighbors New Holland 273 this summer and it was giving me fits.  The knots kept coming apart, breaking and all kinds of problems.

After fighting it for longer than I would like to admit, I decided to change out the twine.  I noticed that I had put round baler twine in.  After I put the round baler twine in it worked like a champ!.

Duh....

[cumminstinkerer]

19 hours ago, HydroTek said:

They guys that know how to work on these balers are gonna be in their 70's

the kids won't have a clue

I take offense to that, LOL, just kidding, I am 44 and have probably the best understanding of how to make knotters work of anyone around here, including dealers. I am not perfect by any means, trial by fire mostly. I will guarantee there aren't many younger than me that have a clue what a knotter even is, let alone how to work on them or make them work right. I still have to call on help from time to time, Gramps taught me a fair bit before his mind went, Dad is okay with them and gives good feedback too but sometimes you just try and go for broke, hopefully not any pieces of the knotter, LOL 

[HydroTek]

44 , on the tail end of the last generation with imagination .  A major part of being a Mechanic is the ability to 'see' in your mind how a device operates and follow thru the steps of operation with understanding -- this is a rare commodity these days with all the 'parts replacers' that  want to be called mechanic .. Maybe I am a bit jaded working at a dealership 47 years -- seen a lot of 'stuff' that was not right still make it out the door , at the customers expense .

Baler knotters are not rocket surgery , but do take a bit of imagination and understanding to get old parts to keep making good knots .. Consider the speed at which the knot is made, and the minimal failures in a day with 1000 bales on the wagons .

Someone mentioned twine -- yeah quality is not as good as it used to be in the sisal twines -- and the plastics are 'slicker' for the knotters to grab onto .. The twines have got smaller these days , I suppose part in trying to save money . Old 9000 is hard to find , but even a worn out baler will knot with that stuff .. Goto the 12k stuff and you will need the parts tightened up to get a reliable knot -- then there are those that try to use round bale twine

Real Mechanic work has a lot of artisan in it  -- if you have that ability - keep at it and I commend you

[cumminstinkerer]

Thank you @HydroTek it does indeed take all of the above. Seen some shady crap go out the door when i was at Case too, worst of that was he was the oldest guy in the shop, I think he was just coasting down maybe, not real sure. I hate doing things half azzed, I have done some patch jobs on my own time, never in the dealership to get a customer or even my own stuff by for a bit until time permitted doing it right. It is getting a bit tricky to get some stuff for my 47 baler but luckily I have a big lathe and a friend that three CNC mills so for the most part it if it breaks I can find a way to fix it. I need to rebuild the floor right at the end of the auger and the knifes, shes worn a bit thin but still works, guess that's what you get when you are the 4th generation to own it, unfortunately only the 3rd to use it, great grandpa died in a car wreck shortly after he got it.

[Gearclash]

3 hours ago, cumminstinkerer said:

, I am 44 and have probably the best understanding of how to make knotters work of anyone around here, i

I am a year younger and can probably say the same thing about knotters, at least the single knot knife arm type knotters.  Taught myself entirely on a NH D1000.  

[MacAR]

The tool would be neat to have, but I doubt seriously one will ever surface. Even if it did, it would be difficult to convince anyone to reproduce it. I would be a buyer if someone did though. 

The 37/47 baler knotters I understand... the rest I don't. I can make my 37 tie 98% of the time. The other 2% is over feeding or running it too fast. The best thing I ever did on my 37 was buy a set of twine knives that take replaceable razor blades; cut misses down 3/4ths once I figured it out and set it. I'm not going to tell you how old I am, but I could be y'alls younger brother! I will say there aren't many guys my age fooling with this old stuff. When it comes to balers, I learned a little from an old neighbor and a lot by reading manuals and doing. I'm mechanical enough that I can figure most problems out, and if not, I have enough books to consult I usually can get it done. If that don't work I just ask you guys here; y'all have never let me down!

Mac 

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

28 minutes ago, MacAR said:

If that don't work I just ask you guys here; y'all have never let me down!

If ya can't fix it with a hammer, the problem is electrical. 

Mike

[234-IA]

every square baler has its own "personality"- the knotter stack on our NH 273 isn't set up right at all, according to the book, but it ties pretty consistently for what little I do with it any more

 

I think a lot of the time the knotter is getting blamed for inconsistent windrow or feeding the baler too hard or just having the tension one or two turns too tight- and twine isn't quite what it used to be either

[MacAR]

1 hour ago, 234-IA said:

 

I think a lot of the time the knotter is getting blamed for inconsistent windrow or feeding the baler too hard or just having the tension one or two turns too tight- and twine isn't quite what it used to be either

I think you're exactly right. Dad always said put the boy on the baler and the man on the rake, meaning a good windrow makes good bales and a poor one likewise. Twine isn't good anymore as you said. I think I'll change to plastic next year and see what happens. It's at least more consistent. I've changed bale tension a dozen times in a day before; I'm not sure that's just part of it on the old balers. 

Mac

[Gearclash]

5 hours ago, 234-IA said:

I think a lot of the time the knotter is getting blamed for inconsistent windrow or feeding the baler too hard or just having the tension one or two turns too tight- and twine isn't quite what it used to be either

I don't really agree with that.  If the density is cranked up so high that the twine gets pulled out of the twine holder, ok, not the knotter's fault unless the twine holder springs are set to light, and that is something the knot tail will tell you.  Or if the bale is so tight that the string snaps at the base of the knot when the bale exits the chamber, that isn't a knotter's fault either.  In either case examining the twine will tell you what is going on.

The only other time I give the knotters a pass for mistying is if the material baled lodges in the needle spaces of the plunger and the needles push that material up into the knotters and said material interferes with the knotter.  The best adjusted knotter can't compensate for that.  Beyond that the knotters don't care how the material is being fed into the baler or what the moisture is.  

[JimG]

My Dad had a good baler man that worked for him years ago. I don't know  how many times that I went out with him on baler call when I 

was young but almost every time he would go out and kick and feel around  in the hay windrow . He would then come back to the baler and take

apart the twine disc and clean them out and adjust the inside scraper if needed, Check other adjustments out and put everything back run the baler cycle thru by hand 

and then have the farmer go out and try to bale.  Almost always worked first time. In my latter years after watching him I am convinced that his repairs were

many times made to give the hay time to dry to the proper moisture to bale. It was back when 9000 baler twine was better quality than now but I think that 

now most people do not  understand when hay is dry enough to bale with square baler. When you can bale hay with a round baler it probably will not bale

with a square baler. Just a thought to remember when a person is having problems with a square bales.

[Jeff-C-IL]

I can tell you from much experience that twine quality is very important on those older knotters - NEVER used anything but Lincoln 9000.   Anything else would not tie right.

And, for the comment above about kinky twine - your dealer tech was right.   We always pulled the first 50' out of every ball of twine - the very center was too kinked.   Take that out, and the rest of the ball would tie fine.    Give the 50' section to your wife to tie up her tomato cages.

Of course, the real solution to knotter problems is to sell the livestock and the hay equipment - and rent the hay ground to some young guy with more energy than sense!

[Gearclash]

Regarding the moisture of the hay and knotters -- it puzzles me that people lay so much blame for knotter problems on "the hay is too wet".  There is only one knotter malfunction I am aware of that can be attributed to elevated moistures levels, and  that is twine pulling out of the twine holder.  This is easy to identify as the loose string typically is too short and the #1 end will have a square cut and kinky look at the end inch; the #2 end will have a knot or an attempt at a knot.  The string will be too short overall.  The root of the problem is the friction of the twine sliding around the bale.  More moisture in the hay means the twine encounters more friction as it slides around the bale, both because the hay itself has more friction on the string and because in all probability the bales are getting packed tighter.  It is possible to tighten the twine holder to compensate for this problem but that can only be taken so far as there is an inverse relationship between twine holder tension and knot tail length.  At some point, as the twine holder tension is increased, the knot tail gets too short and the knot unravels when the bale tension is applied to it.  I know the knotters on our big square baler will function fine in hay that is 30% moisture -- and yes this is a single knot knotter like a small baler.  

And regarding that kinky first length of twine in a ball -- that makes me scratch my head too.  Should never be a problem.  If it is I strongly suspect the twine tension plates are not putting enough drag on the twine.  These are the spring loaded plates that the twine passes through shortly after it comes out of the twine ball.  These plates tend to get grooves in them and that can throw the drag tension off.