450vs560

[DT Fan]

18 hours ago, Farming Enthusiast said:

With all of the talk about a 450 having as much or more pulling power than a 560, I wonder if the rear end trouble was due to bigger tillage equipment. My dad pulled     4-16s with his 560s. He never had any trouble with the 560s but I've never seen any bigger than a 3 bottom on a 450

I have seen video of Don Rimathe pulling 5, (I assume) 14's with his 400, in good old Iowa black dirt. It's rather impressive. Have also witnessed him pulling a 4, (again I assume) 14 No. 16 IH with his 460 gas in concrete Kalsem dirt. 3rd T/A. I will be at Don's tomorrow. Maybe I can get him to play the video again, it's on VHS. I'll shoot a phone video, Yeah, the quality ought to be great!

I really look forward to plowing with my 450, and 400 for that matter.

[Big Bud guy]

5 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  When the 60 series debuted in 1958 the 560 was close in power to the Oliver 880 and JD 730.  IH did not have to face a clear cut higher HP competitor at that point but things would soon change.

There was time when it was the 450 vs the 720.  JD had the hp advantage in that one. 

[MacAR]

8 hours ago, bitty said:

I thought it was even a super M with the M&W stroker kit and accessories. I read the story on this website before 

Good, I'm glad I'm not the only one that remembers it.  I just wish I could find it again! 

53 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

It is a story by SuperMpuller.  Once you got him to tell the “rest of the story” he admitted 4010 was a gasser.  The MW kit actually gave the M more displacement than the 4010.  326 cubes vs 302 on the 4010.  So it’s not a far fetched story unless you leave out the 4010 being a gasser part. 

It's still a good story, even you have to admit that. 

33 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

There was time when it was the 450 vs the 720.  JD had the hp advantage in that one. 

Yea, a whole 2.16 HP.... 

I think I'd sacrifice two horsepower for a foot clutch and all around more comfortable tractor to operate. 

[Big Bud guy]

38 minutes ago, MacAR said:

Good, I'm glad I'm not the only one that remembers it.  I just wish I could find it again! 

It's still a good story, even you have to admit that. 

Yea, a whole 2.16 HP.... 

I think I'd sacrifice two horsepower for a foot clutch and all around more comfortable tractor to operate. 

Look up the diesel numbers.  Diesels were starting to outsell gassers and that’s were IH was losing ground hence why the 560 was rushed into production.  And I don’t consider SuperMs story impressive.  First I’m on record saying JD gas engines post 2 cylinder are junk.  Second  I’ve been around enough tractors of that vintage to know big displacement long stroke engines will out lug 6 cylinder engines of equal or smaller displacement. You have some guys in this thread claiming a 450 will keep up with a 560. What’s that tell you?  If you want to run with that story more power to you.  I’d leave out the 4010 gas part though 

[MacAR]

7 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

Look up the diesel numbers.

Ok... 

So a whopping 6.36 drawbar horsepower difference.... boy, that's a lot... you'd have to drop a bottom off the 450 so it could keep up with the JD. You'll also note that there is a whole 87lbs difference in the pull test. You can say whatever you want to, but I'm gonna bet we could put a 450D and a 720D side by each in the field hooked to the exact same plow, and everyone here would agree after watching that one pulled just as good as the other. 

15 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

You have some guys in this thread claiming a 450 will keep up with a 560. What’s that tell you?

That a 450 is a much better tractor than a 560 or a 4010.... IH should've canned the entire 40/60 lineup and rushed development on the 06's. But the didn't and we've got the redheaded stepchildren. The could've ran the 50 series out a little longer and saved all that R&D money too. 

[Big Bud guy]

49 minutes ago, MacAR said:

Ok... 

 

 

So a whopping 6.36 drawbar horsepower difference.... boy, that's a lot

 

That’s 15% more hp. But don’t tell farmers that because IH was losing ground to JD and in fact according to TD the 720 outsold the 450.  For the moment I’ll disregard that fact just because.  Let’s hook a 5 bottom up to each tractor weigh them up and see which one goes further even if we have to use 1st gear. 

[766 Man]

48 minutes ago, MacAR said:

Ok... 

So a whopping 6.36 drawbar horsepower difference.... boy, that's a lot... you'd have to drop a bottom off the 450 so it could keep up with the JD. You'll also note that there is a whole 87lbs difference in the pull test. You can say whatever you want to, but I'm gonna bet we could put a 450D and a 720D side by each in the field hooked to the exact same plow, and everyone here would agree after watching that one pulled just as good as the other. 

That a 450 is a much better tractor than a 560 or a 4010.... IH should've canned the entire 40/60 lineup and rushed development on the 06's. But the didn't and we've got the redheaded stepchildren. The could've ran the 50 series out a little longer and saved all that R&D money too. 

  The 60 series was all about economics and was profitable for IH to build as the engines came from the truck division with the charge off already made in terms of R & D.  All manufacturers of farm tractors in the US and Canada at the time made minimal changes in the name of profit.  JD was canny in that it used the wide profit margin in its 2 cylinder tractors to develop a new product which would not be available until several years into the future.  Worse for JD's competition was they could sell them at rock bottom prices so even a farmer who disliked the 2 cylinder tractors had to think about them when considering the bottom line.  So until the time the 2 cylinders went into permanent retirement they were a strong factor in the new tractor market.  

[MacAR]

16 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

Let’s hook a 5 bottom up to each tractor weigh them up and see which one goes further even if we have to use 1st gear. 

Ok, sounds good to me. You bring a 720D and I'll see if I can find a 450D and we'll hook 'em to whatever plow you want to hook to. If that glorified popcorn popper really walks off from the 50 then I can be surprised and you can say I told you so. Just let me know when you want to hook 'em up. 

[MacAR]

16 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  The 60 series was all about economics and was profitable for IH to build as the engines came from the truck division with the charge off already made in terms of R & D.  All manufacturers of farm tractors in the US and Canada at the time made minimal changes in the name of profit.  JD was canny in that it used the wide profit margin in its 2 cylinder tractors to develop a new product which would not be available until several years into the future.  Worse for JD's competition was they could sell them at rock bottom prices so even a farmer who disliked the 2 cylinder tractors had to think about them when considering the bottom line.  So until the time the 2 cylinders went into permanent retirement they were a strong factor in the new tractor market.  

That's very interesting, I did not know that. It makes perfect sense though, and it's pretty darn good business I do admit. When you consider that most farmers (me included) are so tight they squeak, they get color blind really quick when it comes to price. 

[rustred]

i have the 560 international standard tractor and the 450 standard tractor , both diesels. i know the 560 will pull more than the 450. its the same deal in the antique tractor pulls.   

[Farming Enthusiast]

4 hours ago, DT Fan said:

I have seen video of Don Rimathe pulling 5, (I assume) 14's with his 400, in good old Iowa black dirt. It's rather impressive. Have also witnessed him pulling a 4, (again I assume) 14 No. 16 IH with his 460 gas in concrete Kalsem dirt. 3rd T/A. I will be at Don's tomorrow. Maybe I can get him to play the video again, it's on VHS. I'll shoot a phone video, Yeah, the quality ought to be great!

I really look forward to plowing with my 450, and 400 for that matter.

That's a little aggressive to me but would be interesting to see

[Farming Enthusiast]

3 hours ago, MacAR said:

Ok... 

So a whopping 6.36 drawbar horsepower difference.... boy, that's a lot... you'd have to drop a bottom off the 450 so it could keep up with the JD. You'll also note that there is a whole 87lbs difference in the pull test. You can say whatever you want to, but I'm gonna bet we could put a 450D and a 720D side by each in the field hooked to the exact same plow, and everyone here would agree after watching that one pulled just as good as the other. 

That a 450 is a much better tractor than a 560 or a 4010.... IH should've canned the entire 40/60 lineup and rushed development on the 06's. But the didn't and we've got the redheaded stepchildren. The could've ran the 50 series out a little longer and saved all that R&D money too. 

I agree something should've been done in the 50s but my remedy would be to can the letter series 4-5 years earlier and get the 00 series started by 1950. Even if you don't have the TA ready yet, you'd have IPTO and more power instead of just doing 3-5 hp increments to give the salesmen something to talk about and making the farmers believe they're getting something a significantly better. I think the 60 series was a good step in the right direction with the six cylinder engines. IH just got caught with their pants down doing business as usual when Oliver and JD had a big jump in mind. Just my opinion

[766 Man]

1 hour ago, Farming Enthusiast said:

I agree something should've been done in the 50s but my remedy would be to can the letter series 4-5 years earlier and get the 00 series started by 1950. Even if you don't have the TA ready yet, you'd have IPTO and more power instead of just doing 3-5 hp increments to give the salesmen something to talk about and making the farmers believe they're getting something a significantly better. I think the 60 series was a good step in the right direction with the six cylinder engines. IH just got caught with their pants down doing business as usual when Oliver and JD had a big jump in mind. Just my opinion

  The trouble is the only thing that matters is economics.  Especially, if your current and future product are low margin for the industry.  JD got around this using a basic design that had been around for decades and Ford crossed sourced an amazing number of components for its N series tractors from its automotive division.  Oliver would have been more of a factor during the 1950's (number one in diesel row crop tractors during the early 1950's) but lacked the dealer base to capitalize on its products.  Around here Oliver had half the number of dealers of what IH had and kind of guess that was true in many areas across the US and Canada.  

[766 Man]

2 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  The trouble the only thing that matters is economics.  Especially, if your current and future product are low margin for the industry.  JD got around this using a basic design that had been around for decades and Ford crossed sourced an amazing number of components for its N series tractors from its automotive division.  Oliver would have been more of a factor during the 1950's (number one in diesel row crop tractors during the early 1950's) but lacked the dealer base to capitalize on its products.  Around here Oliver had half the number of dealers of what IH had and kind of guess that was true in many areas across the US and Canada.  

  When I think about the very local scene IH probably out numbered Oliver 4 to 1.  

[ky966boy]

18 hours ago, hillman said:

my experience is anecdotal and the seat of my pants dyno isn't accurate as I would like but I am sure a 560 won't pull 5-16s around here . 450 obsoletely will not pull 5-16s

My 5088 didn’t run away with 5 16 around here cousins hot 1486 did a little better but I was looking at the sky a lot.

[OFFTHEFARM]

1 hour ago, Farming Enthusiast said:

That's a little aggressive to me but would be interesting to see

Our 560D would pull a 5-14 semi mount in cropland. If you were breaking up sod or alfalfa it was a no go. It would pull a 4-14 hard ground pretty reliably.

[MacAR]

1 hour ago, OFFTHEFARM said:

Our 560D would pull a 5-14 semi mount in cropland. If you were breaking up sod or alfalfa it was a no go. It would pull a 4-14 hard ground pretty reliably.

I truly believe (regardless of marketing) that both the 450 and 560 are true four plow machines. Under the right conditions, they will pull five. But honestly, I think they're more "comfortable" at four bottoms. 

[ny bill o]

Regarding pulling 5 bottoms- 5-14s was a reasonable load for 60hp around here in the Susquehanna valley. 5-16s would have been 10 more inches of load, so more hp needed. 

One of my friends brings his JD 720 and a 5-14 trailer plow to plow day here.

[766 Man]

7 minutes ago, ny bill o said:

Regarding pulling 5 bottoms- 5-14s was a reasonable load for 60hp around here in the Susquehanna valley. 5-16s would have been 10 more inches of load, so more hp needed. 

One of my friends brings his JD 720 and a 5-14 trailer plow to plow day here.

  Axle mounted dual on the 720?

[OFFTHEFARM]

17 minutes ago, MacAR said:

I truly believe (regardless of marketing) that both the 450 and 560 are true four plow machines. Under the right conditions, they will pull five. But honestly, I think they're more "comfortable" at four bottoms. 

Ideally you are right if you don't want to grab the TA a bunch. I'm fairly certain Gramp's tinkered with the pump on our 560. Honestly when the 560 was full of weights it would pull almost what the 706D 282 would. I think the gearing and CG worked better on the 06 for max effort pulling.

[MacAR]

9 minutes ago, ny bill o said:

Regarding pulling 5 bottoms- 5-14s was a reasonable load for 60hp around here in the Susquehanna valley. 5-16s would have been 10 more inches of load, so more hp needed. 

One of my friends brings his JD 720 and a 5-14 trailer plow to plow day here.

Y'all must have good sandy loam like we do. Can't speak for you area, but our ground pulls pretty easy unless you get into some of the more mucky stuff around the creek bottoms. 

[MacAR]

Just now, OFFTHEFARM said:

Ideally you are right if you don't want to grab the TA a bunch. I'm fairly certain Gramp's tinkered with the pump on our 560. Honestly when the 560 was full of weights it would pull almost what the 706D 282 would. I think the gearing worked better on the 06 for max effort pulling.

You'd be right. The 06's had a better gear spread IMO, much easier to find the right gear for the work. Being in and out of the TA a lot doesn't bother me, but I'd rather just stick it in 3rd (or whatever) and roll. 

[DT Fan]

Isn't the title of this thread 450 vs 560? And now it's all about Deere, again!

[Binderoid]

What parts are in the N series  from  automotive  line? 

[766 Man]

24 minutes ago, Binderoid said:

What parts are in the N series  from  automotive  line? 

  Just about everything in the engine other than the block.  The block was only minimally different than what was used in cars and light trucks but could be made on the same production line.  The radiator with minimal change.  Clutch and brake shoes.  1 st and 2nd gear sets in the transmission.  The N series was carefully crafted by Ford to use as many pre-existing parts as possible from the automotive division and the directive originated with old Henry himself.  This allowed the 9N to debut at 595 dollars list price which is almost 200 dollars less than what the Farmall H did.  But the H could do things the 9N could not do.