TD-6 Diesel Side Runaway (Injection Pump Issues TD6)

[JeTFiN]

I just acquired a new 1944 International TD-6 (TD6) with IH injection pump that runs fine with one caveat - when you switch it to diesel it tries to rev itself up to Mars.  I'm going to use this thread to document what happens and possibly (likely) beg for advice on what to do with this issue.  According to the injector pump manual this may involve rebuilding the injector pump.




Some unrelated information - the hydraulic controller cylinder seal on the Bucyrus Erie dozer blade was leaking hydraulic fluid everywhere and was able to be dismantled by removing the cover on the rear, unscrewing cylinder from the (purposely) bent arm, then pulling it out the back and using a blunt screwdriver to remove all four seals.  The seals were brought to NAPA where they cross-referenced it to SKF 11067, a suitable replacement that has been keeping all the hydraulic fluid nice and warm.

I will include other minor fixes in this thread as they occur, attempting to include as many relevant keywords as possible so that others searching are able to easily find solutions to these problems.

[nomorejohndeere]

Is there a cover plate with access to the plungers?

get in there and lubricate and make sure they all move .......

[Ian Beale]

1 hour ago, nomorejohndeere said:

Is there a cover plate with access to the plungers?

get in there and lubricate and make sure they all move .......

IIRC

Those pumps work a bit differently.  Main injection pressure is from the plunger at the back, the ones under the injection pipes are metering valves.

Same advice though as they need to move and shut off.  

If it is over-reving the governor hasn't got things under control so same for the rack.

FWIW

 

[pede]

I watched my uncle's Cleveland trencher with a IH motor detonate from going wild, turned out to be leaking gas on the diesel side, funny thing.....well wasn't funny at the time as we were all trying to shut it down when all we needed to do was switch it back to gas, we were lost in the excitement of the moment.       

[JeTFiN]

I decided to take a couple photos of the pump with side cover removed to show what the governor spring and torque control lever are doing.  I'm unfamiliar with this assembly and governors in general but am eager to learn as the skills are clearly useful.  It doesn't appear that any arms or shafts are slipping on their splines, fortunately.  Please note the engine was neither warmed nor running for these photos.

Here is a photo with the engine speed control lever all the way down in the off position.


Here is a photo from the same angle with the engine speed control lever up at the 100% position.


Note the torque control lever has moved by a few degrees.  I'm not sure how to access the plungers and/or governor shaft without removing the pump, which I figure to be a likely step in this process, anyway.

[hardtail]

Search @M Dieselfor pump threads

[JeTFiN]

Thanks to @hardtail's tip, I was able to find extensive photography by @M Diesel in this thread.

Unfortunately, the issue I have wasn't covered in it, but the intuition was useful nonetheless.  It appears that the governor fork is totally jammed up, as shown in the photo below:


I'm not too sure how this assembly functions or whether there is a REALLY STRONG spring holding the fork in place.  Regardless, it seems odd to me that it isn't contacting the thrust bearing when the thrust bearing is all the way in the relaxed state and that with no amount of (careful) prying I can seem to get it to budge.  Please note, as shown below, that the governor spring and torque control levers have been removed so I don't think there should be any spring left holding the governor fork in place.



To remove the governor spring and torque control arm assembly, I used the steps outlined in section 7 in the IH DIESEL [INJECTION] PUMP SERVICE MANUAL which can be found, along with other TD-6 service manuals and relevant documentation in my TD-6 Google Drive Folder.

Does someone more knowledgeable than myself know what might be causing this to bind and maybe a way to fix it?  The shaft slides freely within the fork and I don't want to take it out for fear of losing a key in the fork.  It doesn't seem like the service manual covers the governor fork well.

[JeTFiN]

I've found a drawing in the injection pump service manual that gives what appears to be the only view of the governor fork  It looks like the governor fork may drive the Rack (as seen on the left drawing) which may be bound up.  When looking at this procedure on the service manual it doesn't appear to be easy.

[JeTFiN]

Good news!  I think I found the issue - the rack and plunger were clearly bound up.  I removed the plunger as per the guide M Diesel posted on the thread I linked to previously, then noticed neither rack nor plunger gear would actuate.  I placed the plunger assembly in a vise, got a flathead screwdriver, and a very small peen hammer and lightly tapped it loose, adding in some oil to help free things up.  To free the rack up, I used the rack adjusting rod nut, being careful to not spin the rack around to throw it out of adjustment.  When using the nut (pictured to the right of one of the images), the rack freed up nicely and the plunger wasn't too difficult to free up.  Now for reassembly!  I'll go to a hardware store and find some gasket material to make new gaskets for all the ones I tore off and ripped up, and hopefully soon it'll be running.  I've got to leave for most of the week this upcoming week starting Monday afternoon so if I'm not able to get it back together by then I suppose I'll have to wait until next week to see it run.

[hardtail]

Thought it might be the rack, seems to be coming a more common issue with ULSD and periods of sitting

Racks are tricky things, stuck, loose, too big, too small🤔

[rustred]

On 8/21/2021 at 6:10 AM, pede said:

I watched my uncle's Cleveland trencher with a IH motor detonate from going wild, turned out to be leaking gas on the diesel side, funny thing.....well wasn't funny at the time as we were all trying to shut it down when all we needed to do was switch it back to gas, we were lost in the excitement of the moment.       

on diesel engines you keep a small piece of plywood handy to block off the air supply when not sure of the outcome.  but yes switching back to gas was the answer also on that engine.

[hardtail]

Switching back to diesel would be so simple and another great IH option others didn’t have, lots of DD runaways but I could see the panic in the heat of the moment 

[JeTFiN]

Yes, switching to gas is a very helpful option!  I had to learn that one quickly, and to kill the gas with a choke when anything goes out of control while still running on gas.  While I did get the injection pump mounted, it was only mounted about 15 minutes before I had to leave for the week so I hope I got enough diesel in the plunger to keep it from going bad for a few days.  It seems like the next thing I'll have to do is remove some air bubbles as my very basic bleeding was hampered early on when no diesel would come out of the A or B plugs as noted in the operator's manual.  I'd list the names of these plugs as written in the manuals but I'm a few hundred miles away from the operator's manual right now.  "A" is down at the bottom middle of the left side opening next to the first fitting from the fuel tank and "B" is on top of the fuel filter closest to the operator's seat.

Also, @hardtail good intuition, as the rack/plunger being stuck definitely seemed to be the issue.  Regardless of whether it was THE issue, it certainly was AN issue!

[JeTFiN]

Good news, it runs!  I took my time and lubricated EVERYTHING that is listed to be lubricated in the operator's manual and the dozer runs pretty well now.  The diesel side no longer runs away, but the governor seems slow to speed things back up when a load is introduced.  I'll have to investigate further and see if there are any potential reasons for this, the first of which will be to bring a tachometer and see that the low idle and high idle RPMs are correct (i.e. the engine speed control lever is on the right tooth on the spline), then look through the injection pump manual and look for possible reasons the engine doesn't ramp back up quickly enough.  I'm looking forward to next week when the gaskets come in for all the caps and I get to wash the machine off.

It feels like one of the steering clutches is a little harder to overcome than the other, which I expect to be a condition that improves with time and lubrication, as well as if the governor gets fixed to where it keeps the RPM steady.  The fan and water pump belt is also too worn so that will have to be replaced when the new one purchased here (Jensales IHS134) arrives in the mail soon.  Until then, I won't be running it for too long at a time, just long enough to work on timing tomorrow before diving too deep into potential governor issues.

[Farmall 1466]

1 hour ago, busted knuckles said:

Not sure why I can't see any of the pictures

Same over here, can't see the pictures unfortunately

[JeTFiN]

@busted knuckles @Farmall 1466 Are the images visible now?  Thanks for letting me know - it seems that pasting photos directly into the text only saves them in my local cache and doesn't allow others to see them.

I did some adjusting on the timing of the injection pump as listed in section 3 of the injector pump manual and the exhaust comes out clear after running for a while (see below image and video), the engine seems to die less often, and it feels more powerful.  While adjusting the timing I also a gasket out of McMaster Carr Part #8525T71 1/16" Buna Rubber Gasket Material for the cover over the timing adjustment on the front side of the crank case cover in front of the injection pump.



Video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dR6zsdQCEfnRYDiv9

I also tightened the fan/water pump belt until the maximum deflection was around 3/4"-1" as listed in the operator's manual (linked in a post above) which will hopefully prevent any cooling issues later.

[Farmall 1466]

I can see them now. Thanks for the fix! Your progress on this is very good

[JeTFiN]

5 hours ago, busted knuckles said:

You did clean the water separator and the screen in the pump inlet right?

 

No, I didn't, so I did just now.  They were both dirty and after cleaning I'm not able to tell if the dozer ran better or not.  I'm sure it does,  but I run into issues with it bogging down when going into higher gears.

[mmi]

 

 

2 hours ago, busted knuckles said:

Maybe it's not the motor, do you have a small hill that you can put it on and see if it rolls down it? Could be brakes, rollers bearing or anything causing resistance. Is the fuel pressure gauge missing, I didn't see one on the pump?

also still fuel delivery issue, ? but quite possible now internal timing vs gear vs actual engine

I would run for a while with continued conditioning/cleaning of system and functions  along with MB cats DETAILED instructions on proper timing and repair  then go back and 3x all the timing,just BC you put it back doesnt mean it was right to start with.

[JeTFiN]

8 hours ago, busted knuckles said:

Maybe it's not the motor, do you have a small hill that you can put it on and see if it rolls down it? Could be brakes, rollers bearing or anything causing resistance. Is the fuel pressure gauge missing, I didn't see one on the pump?

I'm not around any hills steep enough but I'll see if I can get something together.  As far as I know, there are no provisions for a fuel pressure gauge on this pump.  I'm not really sure why, but I'd like to mount one to it somehow.  I've found the gauge, I think on Steiner's, but I'm not sure where it was mounted exactly.

6 hours ago, mmi said:

 

 

also still fuel delivery issue, ? but quite possible now internal timing vs gear vs actual engine

I would run for a while with continued conditioning/cleaning of system and functions  along with MB cats DETAILED instructions on proper timing and repair  then go back and 3x all the timing,just BC you put it back doesnt mean it was right to start with.

Good tip on reading MB Cat's instructions.  I'll do this when I can get back to it.  For now I have to leave to work on my building site for a few days.

3 hours ago, busted knuckles said:

So if both of the screens and bowl were dirty, are the filters new??

I'm not sure.  I'll check those when I get back to it next time, assuming you're referring to the auxiliary and final fuel filters.

A side note: This is the first time I've ever fiddled with a diesel engine, nonetheless injection pump, etc, so thanks for the help so far.  I've had a diesel tractor for around a year now from a known previous owner that has required no repairs (I have performed maintenance as required) but this is my first time diving into it, really engines in general.  For some reason the only thing that breaks on my car is peripheral stuff (steering, brake pump, etc., not too bad for 350,000+ miles).

[JeTFiN]

On 9/2/2021 at 12:15 PM, busted knuckles said:

So if both of the screens and bowl were dirty, are the filters new??

It looks like the filters are indeed new.  Well, they're 10 years old but clean as a whistle.  

Next I will have to try fiddling with timing some more, as I'm unfamiliar with the process and probably did it wrong before.  I resolved a fluid leak I became aware of when I came back to an empty tank (convenient timing as I needed to inspect filters anyway, plus only a gallon or two lost) by tightening the water trap glass bowl's screw which was a little loose - oops.  The engine still dies when I go into 3rd gear or higher or try pushing any sort of load.

I did add headlights and partially restored the oil gauge today which was previously so dirty inside that it was impossible to read.  I feel like the lights add character and I'll wire them up eventually but that's a low priority.  I also added gaskets to all the fuel caps, hydraulic cap, etc.

[mmi]

has anyone mentioned confirm flipper is fully opening...?

and a while back a member had the linkages binding and installed wrong

[JeTFiN]

10 hours ago, mmi said:

has anyone mentioned confirm flipper is fully opening...?

and a while back a member had the linkages binding and installed wrong

Are you referring to the butterfly valve inside the intake manifold (Illust. 241) which is controlled by the compression release mechanism (Illust. 273)?  I'll measure and adjust/verify the dimensions as described in section 219 (Pg. 170) of the service manual.  Hopefully one will be wrong so no removal of the intake manifold is required.

EDIT:  It appears the adjustments on the compression release mechanisms (i.e. lever, not necessarily butterfly valve or anything else inside intake manifold) is adjusted and oriented properly.  I will look at MB Cat's injection pump timing guide in detail and see about that, then if that doesn't work I'll come back to the intake manifold and see if any butterfly valves are bound up.  Note: I don't suspect this to be the issue as when the compression release lever is switched in the up position the starter motor clearly has to work a lot harder to turn the engine over.

[hardtail]

That was one of MB Cats posts, he had another that was pure gold, for some reason I can only open his topics not his responses on other people’s threads🤔

[JeTFiN]

On 9/10/2021 at 8:03 PM, hardtail said:

That was one of MB Cats posts, he had another that was pure gold, for some reason I can only open his topics not his responses on other people’s threads🤔

https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/41366-wd-40-injection-pump/

Is this it?

Quote

First off we are referring to an engine that is in good operating condition. Not one with bad valves, worn rings ,or cracked head. One that we know that the injection system is in good condition and functioning correctly,

also new present day clean fuel with no additives, etc.

1-Set timing mark on fuel pump drive gear on the 0 mark.

2-Start engine and warm up; switch to diesel operation.

3-Warn the engine up until the coolant temp. is in the green zone.

4-Run engine at high idle, after about 15 sec.; observe exhaust smoke;

A-if exhaust has a lot of continious white smoke; engine is retarded to much.

B-if exhaust is just a light haze with no white puffs of smoke; engine is advanced to much.

5- As to what you find in 4; either advance or retard ½ mark at a time on the timing gear, until you get just a few white puffs, this is the point atwhich that engine will preform best.