Learning alot, but want more info

[bbnk999]

I still remember where i was when I heard the news. was very young but still felt bad.

[bbnk999]

I spent a lot of hours curled up sleeping in the back window of Grandpas 886. I still remember the smell of it. I also remember the day he got his new 5088. it was heaven. Western cab, just so new and different! Still the best looking tractors ever made! and his 856 was my favorite of all to run. Ive run a lot of Deere equipment, but i would give anything to ride with my papa again on Red!

[farmer686d]

INTERNATIONAL stuck with it's old tractor designs far too long. A 40 series Deere and a 90 series Case were both much more advanced than a 86 series IH. Both had full or partial powershifts and were just as reliable as the IH models out at the same time.

This a good quote, not forgetting though that the quad range was the same synchro-smash trans from the 4010 with a plantery shift infront of it and TREMENDOUS overlap in speed ratios. And the 90 series Case, which auto shifted back to '1' when the clutch was pressed, and sounded like a bomb going off in the trans when the powershift changed speed. They both were hard to change ranges, just like IH, and they both had trans technology that dated to the early 60's. And don't forget, Deere did not design the 8 speed powershift, that was designed by and outside group, was first installed in the Select-O-Speed Fords in the 50's. The 86 was a pain to shift, but there was only one ratio that overlapped, its a shame the TA couldn't have been more reliable.

[keithinar]

"sounds like a bomb going off in the trans when the powershift changed speeds". Do you IH guys really believe everything you write about 90 and 94 series CASE tractors.

[pete23]

Actually I feel the Case guys talk a lot nastier about IH. I had to work on both but not long enough on the Case tractors to feel really comfortable. Being a mechanic at a dealership, you never saw either color just drive into the shop and the owner tells you it working great, I love it. He is usually there because of a problem and most of the time unhappy about having a problem.

[TroyDairy]

The "bomb" comment is a bit lofty BUT I recall helping my neighbor rake mow etc and when you hit that pedal and heard that thing slam back to 1 when moving. Yikes it crunched. I knwo one FOR SURE fact about the 90-94 Cases, there are none still in operation anywhere in my region. There were several till the mid 90s and they really started fading away. Now I cant even think of one farm using a Case for anything anymore. There are several 66 series around working hay fields still and a handfull of 186 Hydros feeding cows yet. A few 1026s digging tulips S of here. That being said, it is fair to say there are several 40-55 series JDs working as well in my region today.

Pete is right, they all break. Really JD and IH had good engines I know of 40 series with 20000 hrs on em and IHs with 20000 hrs on them. JD PTOs always sound a bit weaker and my friends prove it frequently. The nice thing about IH was a tough PTO you can remove and reinstall with a couple of blocks and a 3/4" and 9/16th wrench. Only $70 for a set of clutch disc and gasket and your off. I dont get why IH stuck with the non-syncro trans for so long. Straight gears are strong but man our 886 was a bugger. I believe the crawlers had powershift in the 60s didn't they? Why it did not come over to ag...? IH may have hung on too long with the 806 inspired design/platform too long but....if your driving by or blindfolded in a 30-60 series JD you cant tell the diff. btw generations besides the last years they had side mnt pipes. Not really a argument for JD ingenuity. It simply appears poor office policies led to lack of $ for R-n-D in the ag dept. Water under the bridge now. Fix up what ever floats your boat Keith. I am a equal opportunity, "have a beer with a lawn chair and yak old tractor stories all afternoon", man. Good times

[Bulldogred]

Actually I feel the Case guys talk a lot nastier about IH. I had to work on both but not long enough on the Case tractors to feel really comfortable. Being a mechanic at a dealership, you never saw either color just drive into the shop and the owner tells you it working great, I love it. He is usually there because of a problem and most of the time unhappy about having a problem.

I remember going to the Ih dealership in my hometown and sure there were 3-4 tractors always in there being worked on some being split,but no more than what was happening in the hometown JD dealership,the early 80's claimed both these dealerships.Case was non existant where I grew up,red and green dominated with blue in a strong 3rd.Ironically the only hometown dealership left is blue and does a hearty business.

[GuyFay]

Starting to reada boo, The Rise and Fall of the US Auto Industry" by Brock Yates. The problems that IH had in the 70s and 80s were very similar to GM,

[Bermuda_Ken]

yes......except that IH didn't get a Gov't bail out and Chrysler did. Looks they both ended up together (kinda) in the end.....

[GuyFay]

yes......except that IH didn't get a Gov't bail out and Chrysler did. Looks they both ended up together (kinda) in the end.....

Errr....two bailouts....they did pay back every penny on the first one, government made a profit on the deal.

[BigBud guy]

INTERNATIONAL stuck with it's old tractor designs far too long. A 40 series Deere and a 90 series Case were both much more advanced than a 86 series IH. Both had full or partial powershifts and were just as reliable as the IH models out at the same time.

This a good quote, not forgetting though that the quad range was the same synchro-smash trans from the 4010 with a plantery shift infront of it and TREMENDOUS overlap in speed ratios. And the 90 series Case, which auto shifted back to '1' when the clutch was pressed, and sounded like a bomb going off in the trans when the powershift changed speed. They both were hard to change ranges, just like IH, and they both had trans technology that dated to the early 60's. And don't forget, Deere did not design the 8 speed powershift, that was designed by and outside group, was first installed in the Select-O-Speed Fords in the 50's. The 86 was a pain to shift, but there was only one ratio that overlapped, its a shame the TA couldn't have been more reliable.

The 8 speed PS was designed in house by JD engineers. Harold Brock lead the team that designed the Ford SOS. But it wasn't ready and Brock told uppermanagement the SOS would fail. Ford put it into production anyway and it did fail. Brock either quit Ford or left after that debacle and then was hired on by JD. Brock told JD not to worry about the SOS and then he led the team that designed the 8 speed. Those are the facts. I personally have never seen the insides of an SOS but have been told they work differently then the JD powershift.

[MacCrops]

Dr. Evil - WOW. Some nice insight. Thanks

[GuyFay]

Saw some interesting stuff in the archives today. IH took a massive financial downturn in the 69,70, 71 era which triggered the string of events that led up to 1085 ( and is still going today, for that matter). Digging into what happened in that era. Anybody know?

[GuyFay]

Finding lots more interesting stuff. The strike in 1979 was really only the final straw, the big ag downturn in 1980 would probably resulted in the same results. Better management 1977-1982 might have kept the company together, but still might have needed a miracle.

[tractorshark]

Not sure what would have happened then, can you give us any clues. I am a little young to remember.

I have always thought that IH was a victim of its own success, I say this without knowing any numbers, but there were hundreds of thousands of new tractors sold in the 60s and 70s, and then the down turn hit and they couldn't adjust fast enough. I know we can debate endlessly about the transmissions they were using, but I don't think they were behind in the technology they offered. I think they believed in the hydro, and were developing that, I wonder what a couple more years would have done on that end of things. Would they have been the first to have the modern CVT/IVT trans? Would that have changed some things, I think so. Haven't put many hours on our Fendt yet, but so far I can see where that transmission is a real advantage in certain applications. Just my thoughts. Thanks guys for the input, never thought my curiosity would provoke such good conversation.

[GuyFay]

Not sure what would have happened then, can you give us any clues. I am a little young to remember.

I have always thought that IH was a victim of its own success, I say this without knowing any numbers, but there were hundreds of thousands of new tractors sold in the 60s and 70s, and then the down turn hit and they couldn't adjust fast enough. I know we can debate endlessly about the transmissions they were using, but I don't think they were behind in the technology they offered. I think they believed in the hydro, and were developing that, I wonder what a couple more years would have done on that end of things. Would they have been the first to have the modern CVT/IVT trans? Would that have changed some things, I think so. Haven't put many hours on our Fendt yet, but so far I can see where that transmission is a real advantage in certain applications. Just my thoughts. Thanks guys for the input, never thought my curiosity would provoke such good conversation.

They certainly wanted to get into a CVT at least by 1960!

[JEAN COINTE FRANCE]

yes , this tranny was evoked in one of your books ,if my memory is correct ?

[GuyFay]

yes , this tranny was evoked in one of your books ,if my memory is correct ?

Discussed in a few.

Lookinglike a major factor in the trauma was unfunded pension liabilities.

[George 2]

Massey also had unfunded pension liabilities problem in the 1980's. Instead they setup the combines group to fail from lack of funding. The emplyees of Massey Combines never got a cent of pension when Massey Combines failed in 1986. They tried suing VARITY (the parent company) but VARITY slithered out without paying a nickel. Conrad Black eventually got his come uppance in Chicago (and did time in Florida), but Victor A. Rice (VARITY) got off scott free.

[Buford]

Extremely interesting info in this thread! I recently read where IH made their own bearings at their Pulman plant in SW Chicago until the 1980's. This plant has since been closed and demolished. Where has Case IH been getting bearings since? How is quality/ price?

[fatjack]

george 2 i thought all massy workers were uaw members so there pesion was vestied.i no the test track around the corner from me was uaw in the blue color portion.

[TroyDairy]

huh a union getting screwed......let me find a hanky to wipe my tears......IH should of hired so me of Massy office guys. Why would a man think someone else would take care of him and his family? How do you look in the mirror with that weakness as a man? BUT, the powershift from construction woulda been nicer than the 86 trans ever was. Used the 1066 pulling the tandem wagon last week. For sure ground a bit off of the 3-4th gears!

[fatjack]

no troy it was the workers on line that iam talking about.i worked i many auto plants and you erned your keep or were replaced.

[ghenges]

The demise of International Harvester began the day they threw out the last McCormick as CEO and replaced him with CEO McCaffrey who was an early adopter of the planned obsolescence concept.

It is easy to see the decline of engineering excellence as early as the mid to late 1950's.

I've worked on these tractors and you can hear the ghosts of the engineers muttering: " if they want to put out s#it like this, I ain't going to fight it ,,,,, let's go have a beer".

In Fowler McCormick's day a good engineer was one who could engineer a tractor to be as durable as technologically possible, yet easy to work on and inexpensive to maintain, delivering excellent customer value.

The testament to McCormick's genius is the millions of the A's, the B's, the C's, the H's and the M's still plugging along. May they never pass away, for they are a reminder of when 'Made in the USA' changed world agriculture for the betterment of all mankind...

McCaffery bent was to get the customer to buy a new tractor every five years or so by employing an early form of planned obsolescence.

Innovation in obsolescence became the Holy Grail..

Today an excellent engineer is one that can get his engineered product to consistently destruct 30 days out of the warranty period.

[1955farmall400]

The demise of International Harvester began the day they threw out the last McCormick as CEO and replaced him with CEO McCaffrey who was an early adopter of the planned obsolescence concept.

It is easy to see the decline of engineering excellence as early as the mid to late 1950's.

I've worked on these tractors and you can hear the ghosts of the engineers muttering: " if they want to put out s#it like this, I ain't going to fight it ,,,,, let's go have a beer".

In Fowler McCormick's day a good engineer was one who could engineer a tractor to be as durable as technologically possible, yet easy to work on and inexpensive to maintain, delivering excellent customer value.

The testament to McCormick's genius is the millions of the A's, the B's, the C's, the H's and the M's still plugging along. May they never pass away, for they are a reminder of when 'Made in the USA' changed world agriculture for the betterment of all mankind...

McCaffery bent was to get the customer to buy a new tractor every five years or so by employing an early form of planned obsolescence.

Innovation in obsolescence became the Holy Grail..

Today an excellent engineer is one that can get his engineered product to consistently destruct 30 days out of the warranty period.

The company took a turn for the worst when Archie Mccardell took over as the CEO of the company after Brooks McCormick. I know the times were getting hard for IH but a UAW strike under mccardell's authority and failure to sell equipment led to the IH demise. I feel that if Brooks would have stayed their or if they would have hired a good CEO IH would have made it through the hard times of the late 1970's and would still be around today, but that's what you get for hiring a Xerox executive to run a struggling agricultural equipment company.