Learning alot, but want more info

[Guest J.COINTE GAP SOUTH OF FRANCE]

Great article , i've said "essential" in other topic...

well written , very clear.

[Dave911]

I live northeast of Fort Wayne. Fort Wayne was the home of the big IH truck plant on the east side of town. The complex is huge and is now occupied but over a hundred smaller businesses. I moved to the FW area after the production was moved from FW to Springfield Ohio plant as Navistar. And Navistar still has a good size engineering group here and I have known some of the engineers who work there also.

I used to work for GM in the 70's and early 80's. Much of the same issues I saw at GM I heard about at IH. The same Union vs Management thing. The same abuse from Management to Union and back again. The constant infighting etc. That is the same thing that has really damaged GM and put them into bankruptcy. I'm not blaming either the Union or the Management. It is what it is. This "style" of management is left over from the turbulent 40's and 50's when the unions had to confront the management to stop employee abuse. And believe me, I saw that happen also when I was at GM. It went both ways.

When companies came along that did not have such core problems, they ate GM's lunch. I suspect the same thing is at the core of what IH's problems were. How can you be nimble and quick at responding to market demands when the Union and Management can't have a decent discussion? The us vs. them philosophy doesn't work any longer.

I have a couple of IH trucks and when I go to local IH dealer and give them the SN and the Model number for a 1970 truck they can look up exactly the right part on that particular truck. Their organization is impressive in that respect. But still they tend to kick employees around a lot.

I don't know on anyone who can say that working for IH or Navistar was a very stable situation.

I started @ FARMALL in OCt. '76 after I got out of college. I actually hired in during a Wildcat strike @ FARMALL. I worked a couple weeks and got bumped onto 2nd shift which I really didn't like. I was doing subassembly on the wide frt axles for the 86-series. I'd get bored and would talk to other people in the dept. and eventually got to know how to do Their jobs as well as the stuff I was supposed to do. Main thing was I'd assemble the steering cylinders & hoses to keep the Guys assembling the axle extensions and tirerods, etc. running. They were running the main line on 1st & 2nd shift then so everything We ran went straight to the line. After about 10-12 weeks I got laid-off when assembly dropped down from 175/day to 145-150/day and 2nd shift assembly was stopped.

My Union Steward came by that night and told Me I could get on @ the East Moline plant which I did for six weeks being a helper on an 8 ft Cincinnati metal cutting shear, cutting & slitting steel sheet into strips & blanks for parts. I really didn't care for that plant like I did FARMALL so I'd keep going back to FARMALL and trying to get back on there. Finally I got hired for My Production Scheduler job, expediting & scheduling gears & shafts thru a gear machining dept. I really enjoyed that. Job lasted 8-9 months and I was laid-off again in Oct.'77. I was lucky enough to get on with UPS for X-mas help and got called back full time mid-Febuary '78 @ UPS.

About 7:30 PM on a Saturday night Dec. 19th, 1978 the phone rings, HR Mgr. @ FARMALL asks if I could come back to work MONDAY....NOBODY quits UPS 2-3 days before Christmas so He said I could start Monday Jan. 3rd. 1979. I was in Material Scheduling, chasing parts into the plant at first from IH. E.Moline, Canton, Shadyside, Ohio, Melrose Pk, IL, and seems like I had some stuff from Memphis Fdy. After 3-4 months they reorganized the department and I was the new Scheduler on the TIRE Desk. MAN I loved that job! And I was REALLY good at it. Along with the tire & rim/wheel suppliers I released paint, couple stampings from a place in Dubuque, IA, engine clutch disc's & pressure plates from Rockford Clutch Div. of Borg-Warner, and O-Rings from National Oil Seal in California and a Minority supplier from Indy.

About 10 months later was the BIG Strike, I got choosen to work in the Mat'l Handling dept. because of My prior truck driving experience to drive the semi-tractor the company leased to move trailers around the plant. I was working six 10 & 12 hr days per week. Strike ended and We started building tractors again, plus getting ready for the 88-series release. We also built ALL the Taco Tractors, big orders of specially equipped 986,1086, & 1486's for Mexico. There were 1200-1500 tractors per batch. All tractors were supposed to have GY tires with mounted duals so there were a HUGE amount of extra tires to keep track of.

The 88-series started production in late Oct. or Sept. if I remember right.....After problems with the pilot run were resolved, things were going good We thought. My Wife and I were expecting Our first child around Thanksgiving, but turns out He was late. On Monday Dec. 7th everybody in Our group gets called into a conference room and We're notified again that all but two of the 13 of Us were being laid-off AGAIN..... My Son was born of Friday Dec. 11th @ 7:04 AM, good excuse for being late Your last day at work I thought.

With the company time I had We weren't sure if I would even be laid-off but the cutback was bigger than anyone expected and eventually I worked My way back up to about third on the call-back list. But never got back.

But FARMALL was a great place to work, There were some people who weren't happy there but that's true of every workplace. On the street where Wife & I bought Our first house in five houses,, next door Neighbor was a General Foreman @ E. Moline, then Me, other next door neighbor was an Inspector at JD Parts Distribution Center in Milan, Next Neighbor was an IT person as various JD plants while We lived there, His Wife was in Production Control @ JD Plow-Planter, Neighbor next to Him was a lead person in Accounting @ Farmall. My Boss and His wife actually lived less than a block away from Us two streets over.

Being in the Quad-Cities which was REALLY biased towards JD I thnk a lot of the IH people worked harder to make sure that the 6000-7000 IH employees in the area made sure JD knew IH was still around. Seems like nothing good was ever in the local papers about IH, and nothing BAD ever written about JD. Sound familiar?

There was probably a HUNDRED suppliers & machine shops who depended on FARMALL to keep their doors open. Companies like Sears Mfg. who made the seats for the 86-series and some of the seats for the 88-series depended on the volume of business with FARMALL. Add all the seats for the E.Molne Plant & JD Harvester works together then double it and You still wouldn't equal the number of seats FARMALL would use in the same period. The local trucking companies bent over backwards to make sure We always got Our freight on time. Just on My tires, wheels, & rims I needed 16 to 18 semi-truck loads of parts A DAY to keep the plant running. Plus there were three semi-truck loads of engines every day from Melrose, and daily shipments from E.Moline to FARMALL ran between two and four truckloads a day, plus two from Canton Plt. Company I ended up driving over-the-road for had the cab contract for hauling cabs from E.Moline to FARMALL. Think there was 7 or 8 cabs per load, so 18 loads of cabs a day. Company later bought 48 ft trailers special for that job, then they could haul nine cabs, so only 16 loads required.

Since that time, having worked for several small manufacturing companies from 25 to 350 people I realize how totally great IH was at manufacturing. They had processes & procedures for EVERYTHING. And this is 20-25 yrs before ISO 9000. I had My first FAX machine in 1979, most companies didn't discover the FAX till the mid-1980's. We had a private IHC only satelite phone sytem where We could call from anywhere TO anywhere and charge the call to Our personal work phone number. IH truely was world class. Their computer system for the whole corporation was centered around FARMALL. Each plant had a plant ID number, FARMALL was #1, E.Moline was #3. We could send e-mails or "Instant Messages to people any in the plant or any other IH plant. I could go into the other side of the computer system and see by part number WHERE parts were, how many there were, how m,any that place used, who the supplier was, costs, etc. Didn't make a difference if it was a truck part, Cub Cadet, You name it. And this was at least 10-12 yrs before Al Gore invented the Internet. The computer systems small and even mid-sized companies use now are primitive in comparison to what IHC had 30 yrs ago.

There really are dozens of reasons why IHC had to sell off divisions to survive. Any one or two reasons they could have dealt with but combine them ALL and they're lucky to still be around. It wasn't Archie's fault, or the UAW, or the Russian Grain Embargo and resulting ag. depression, or the 20+% intersst rates of the early 1980's, Heck, The company had survived much worse in the 80 yrs since IHC had been formed.

I'm kinda biased, having driven My Dad's '51 M when I was about four years old standing between Dad on the seat and the steering wheel.....But IH was VERY good at what they did. And people enjoyed working there. And they got paid very well for working there. And they were treated with respect, at least while there, some of that other ag equipment company's people didn't care for Us but then the feeling was mutual in most cases. And I'm not talking about people at the two J.I.Case plants or two CAT plants that were around the Q-C's.

[lawcobuilders]

The more I read about and learn about the IH tractors, especially the 88's built towards the end, the more I'm amazed by just how many innovations they had. I think the 88 series tractors still look cool today.

Great stories from Dr Evil.

[OLD 10-20]

It seems like the current situation in the auto industry has some parallels to the IH story.

And in the early 1980's a lot of Us at FARMALL were watching the first Chrysler Bail-Out REAL close. There was a little talk about IH asking for help like Ioccoca did. I heard it didn't happen because IH only employed 35,000 company wide. Chrysler was about ten times that many then.

I wouldnt care if chrysler was ten times larger . Wasnt IH the top agri buisness leader over John Deere ? I dont think international even bothered to ask our government for help .

[DR.EVIL]

I wouldnt care if chrysler was ten times larger . Wasnt IH the top agri buisness leader over John Deere ? I dont think international even bothered to ask our government for help .

IH was "Bigger" in gross annual sales, just over $5 Billion compared to JD at maybe $4+ Billion but AG was a bigger portion of JD's sales than IH's. IH had truck, construction, SOLAR, Cub Cadet, and "Components" which was their engine & casting business. JD had ag, construction, lawn care, and a small timber business in skidders which now is actually included in construction, and their components or engine/transmission business which was small compared to IH, and JD had no trucks.

But Your correct, IH never even asked for Gov't help in '80, '81.

I still remember the frt page headlines in the Moline, IL paper in the fall of '81 that JD predicted '82 sales would be 20% greater in Tonnage (instead of Dollars because of the effect of the out-of-control inflation at the time) than '81 sales. Yeah.... What were THOSE marketing people smoking?

[oldtanker]

I really should not be offering my 2 cents worth.......but, I was a city kid, Red bank NJ. Dad retired from the army and we moved to Mn and onto a farm in 71. About the only way for a male teen to make money here at the time was by doing farm work. This area was real red. You saw few JD's even though a dealer was in a local town (8miles east) or Fords (8 miles west) again a local dealer. The next nearest dealers were 15 (AC) to 20 or more miles away. IH had a lot of dealers. Sometime in the early 70's they started closing the smaller dealers. When I myself joined the Army in 74 the area was still very red and with the exception of 3 farmers in a 10 miles radius all the newer tractors were red. When I returned from Germany in 78 I was shocked. The local JD dealership had changed hands and most of the newer equipment in the area was green. Seems a lot of the local farmers got mad about having to drive farther for parts and service for IH and they got even by trading into Deere at the local now very good dealer. Now you can drive from my home 50 miles in any direction and only 1 small dealer (Agco) is still under the same ownership. That guy gets a lot of business because he still knows how to take care of his customers.

I'm sure customer loyalty had something to do with the downfall.

Rick

[Cheif]

Dr. Evil: You are a Wealth of information, Thanks I learned a lot I didn't know.

[Grateful11]

This thread is an excellent read. Somehow it has eluded me. I don't post here a lot, so much

has happened to me and my family over past year and half. I really enjoyed this entire thread

just now. I like reading stories like this if anyone else has more info. on the subject please clue us in.

Thanks!

[Roberto_Rivero]

Hi guys!! I don't often post on this board, but I noticed that Dr Evil metioned the Chrysler loan in the early 80's. I worked for Chrysler from 76 until Jan 79. I was pretty young, but the organization didn't impress me much. Sounds like IH really had a better system for inventory. Chrysler built every car for a "sales bank" - we ran all white cars one day, blue the next, and so on. They really couldn't build a car to order for a customer. A lot of options on a Chrysler were dealer installed - the assembly guys would throw things in the trunk for the dealer to do. They ended up with a huge inventory that almost killed them. It was a good place to work. I think in that time period, Chrysler had about 150K employees, about 50K in Detroit proper. I really don't think that the number of employees was the reason Chrysler got the loan from the government. It was pretty much a Lee Iococaa show, all the way. For example, when he took over, Chrysler had 19 vp's. He fired Every single One. He basically took over everything in the corporation. He went to Washington, did the lobbying, went on tv, did ads, negotiated with the union - simply told the union that this was the deal, take it or leave it. The UAW really had no recourse, he had all the cards. Without him, there was no future, and they knew it. Lee Iococaa was a tremendous salesman, and a true leader. And very tough. Maybe if IH had somebody like him, there would still be Farmalls being made. Just think - "If you can find a better tractor, buy it!!" Looking both hystories form here south america, i agree with that. the IHC company needed a Lee Iacocca in its team, i think that if Iacocca had not been arrived in Chrysler when he did may be the n

hystory would have been different, thanks to him we could have the minivans, and a lot of nice cars made by Chrysler, if in IHC were somebody like him who knows....all the evolution that the XX88 coul have had, may be we coul have had today a2+2 magnum but with an IH engine DTA466.

Any way i thin the hystori could be better than i was.

[fallnhorse]

As a mechanic i was dumbfounded. For Case to end up with the international name. The 2290, 1370 or any power shift were disasters of tractors. If your help left them in the reverse range while using a blower your just torn the planetary gears out of your tractor transmission. They shifted bad, noisy trany, just a bad tractor. Cheap hp used but you got a pile of junk.

Goes to show you having the better tractor does not mean you will be the one to strive.

[keithinar]

I know this is not the thread to argue and I am not bashing anyone. We own a 5488 and a 5288. We also own a 2594 and a 2590 Case. The 2594 with the 6 speed power shift was the smoothest shifting power shift made, and the 2590 was smoother shifting than a 4840 JD. The only time we have opened up the rear end on the Cases was to replace brake disc's. The Case tractors we have are more reliable that the 50 series IH. I am not a mechanic I am just a farmer who owns both brands of tractors. For you to say Case tractors are junk just tells me you do not know what you are talking about.

[pete23]

I personally never liked the Case line of tractors, but, after the merger, all of a sudden I found myself to be a Case mechanic along with IH, then Steiger. Truth is , I got stretched too thin. Lot of case customers liked their tractors just fine. I found lot of problems with them in my rather short time working on them, about ten years. Their hitch hydraulics draft control mechanism was a total, well enough. Their later electric controled hitches weren't too bad. Engines flying apart, hydraulics, rear ends, that power shift. Mixed up parts , wern't supposed to be used in the model you found them in. That cab dog house over rear of engine made one quit cussing the fuel tank over the engine that IH had all those years. As far as going broke, well, fact is Case went belly up long before IH did, why do you suppose Tenaco owned the co. Seems co. was in hands of receivers for some time before that happened. In all honesty though, it is familiarity that really comes into play. I was just a lot more comfortable working on the IH line because I was familiar with them. Spent four years , just before retirement working on John Deere. Learned a lot about them, forgot most of it already. You know what. They go to heck big time also, but those boys who own those green machines are very, very loyal to that color. Much more than I found in Case or IH. That is one reason I really enjoy this site as it really brings out the RED in people. (most anyway)

[keithinar]

We have been IH since the 40's when grandpa bought our first M. I like our 5488 and our 806 is the finest tractor IH ever built dad bought it new in 1967 and the engine and rear end never has been touched. Our Case tractors give good service too the 504 engine is unrivaled in pulling power and fuel economy. The 66 and 86 series is what soured me on IH tractors. Bottom line is I wish IH was still around they were on their way back to #1 in the mid 80's. I would have loved to have a 72 or 7488. It would of been nice to see HI push Deere back to #2. And by the way we have owned John Deere tractors and combines.

[Ben Towe]

I know this is not the thread to argue and I am not bashing anyone. We own a 5488 and a 5288. We also own a 2594 and a 2590 Case. The 2594 with the 6 speed power shift was the smoothest shifting power shift made, and the 2590 was smoother shifting than a 4840 JD. The only time we have opened up the rear end on the Cases was to replace brake disc's. The Case tractors we have are more reliable that the 50 series IH. I am not a mechanic I am just a farmer who owns both brands of tractors. For you to say Case tractors are junk just tells me you do not know what you are talking about.

Maybe you're just lucky or something but I've never seen a Case that was anything but trouble. A lot of the big tobacco farmers around here buy them because they're so cheap. Usually they ain't worth it. Apparently they inherited quality control and innovation from IH, of course many of the first CaseIH tractors were rebadged IHs so the quality got a major boost right off the bat. I always thought it was a shame the IH name had to take a back seat to Case though.

[keithinar]

If you want to talk about a tractor lacking quality control we could talk about the 86 series IH and also the 50 series. I will say one thing the people on this website are true blue IH like the JD people are true blue JD. If any body wants to know why IH was on the verge of bankruptcy it was because of their antiquated tractor designs from the 1970's mainly the 66 and 86 series tractors. Those two series of tractors is what drove us to Case and it has been the best business decision we ever made.

[pete23]

Being a mechanic and not an owner operator puts me in a different perspective than others on this board. I never saw someone drive his tractor in to the shop or call us to have us come out and work on it or haul it in because it was working just great. He was having some kind of a problem or needed some maintenance performed. Funny how an 806 transmisson and final drive can be so good and a 66 series so bad when most of the parts are interchangable or an updated version. Just like the super m had a great reputation and the 400 was considered a dog, in its day, but now is great. Take off the hoods and hydraulics and they were the same tractor. Like I said before, some times one gets a bad taste in his mouth from a particular model, brand or even a dealership and it turns him off permanent. That is what makes the world go around. Different strokes for different folks. IH stuck to some ideas way to long, (like same ta in a 706 as 1486) and you don't have to be too smart to figure more problems will occur with all the additional horsepower. Then Case, well, 3 heads on one engine with one piece water header, intake manifold and exhaust manifolds that have to be all kept in alignment. O-rings in the block instead of on the sleeve so when they cavitate out you machine out the block, no job for an amateur. Jerking, jumping power shift that changes the way it shifts with the weather. Need a blinky box mounted permanently on those to adjust daily. John Deere has more parts in their power steering units on the 4010 and 20 models than some tractors have in the whole hydraulic system. The SCV that , yes do usually hold up a loaded cyl, but are one of the biggest money making repair jobs a dealer had. Could go on forever. One thing I did learn early on, company's were not very interested in hearing from mechanics, if customers kept buying, they kept making. When sales started slowing down they brought out the newest latest and greatest. Some times it was, usually it was just a makeover, all colors included.

[keithinar]

I agree. We have had very little rear end trouble with any of our IH tractors and that includes the 806 and the 1066 we still have. Every brand of tractor has it good and bad points. During the 70's IH could of done much better than they did the 50 series proves that.

[Bulldogred]

I know this is not the thread to argue and I am not bashing anyone. We own a 5488 and a 5288. We also own a 2594 and a 2590 Case. The 2594 with the 6 speed power shift was the smoothest shifting power shift made, and the 2590 was smoother shifting than a 4840 JD. The only time we have opened up the rear end on the Cases was to replace brake disc's. The Case tractors we have are more reliable that the 50 series IH. I am not a mechanic I am just a farmer who owns both brands of tractors. For you to say Case tractors are junk just tells me you do not know what you are talking about.

Maybe you're just lucky or something but I've never seen a Case that was anything but trouble. A lot of the big tobacco farmers around here buy them because they're so cheap. Usually they ain't worth it. Apparently they inherited quality control and innovation from IH, of course many of the first CaseIH tractors were rebadged IHs so the quality got a major boost right off the bat. I always thought it was a shame the IH name had to take a back seat to Case though.

You got it backwards Ben,the first Case-IH tractors offered for sale were re-badged Case tractors that were painted red.

[Bulldogred]

We have been IH since the 40's when grandpa bought our first M. I like our 5488 and our 806 is the finest tractor IH ever built dad bought it new in 1967 and the engine and rear end never has been touched. Our Case tractors give good service too the 504 engine is unrivaled in pulling power and fuel economy. The 66 and 86 series is what soured me on IH tractors. Bottom line is I wish IH was still around they were on their way back to #1 in the mid 80's. I would have loved to have a 72 or 7488. It would of been nice to see HI push Deere back to #2. And by the way we have owned John Deere tractors and combines.

I don't know Keith,to me,the 1066 in the seventies were a bread and butter model for IH,like the M in the 40's and 50's.The 1066 was a well balanced reliable tractor{if maintained correctly}many were abused by farmers that ran the crap out of them in overloaded condition.What was amazing about the 1066,was if maintained properly it would take the abuse many years before a major problem.I currently own a 1066 and I don't even farm.It resides on my uncle's farm and is still earning it's keep.I'll retire soon and Im going to restore it and pull it some.At one time my family owned 5 open station 1066's and 3 cabbed 1086's.The only thing I liked better on the 86 vs the 66 was the air-conditioned cab,the 66's didn't have one.The 66 series rode much better than the 86's and of course shifting was a dream compared to 86's.I left the farm in the early 80's to pursue a career in aviation maintenance and IMO back then JD did not have a tractor that would pull with a 66 or 86 IH including the 4640.JD made a Cadillac of a tractor,but did a lousy job engineering and developing a good strong efficient diesel to go in it.Simply put,IH should have developed and put the 88 series on the market in the early seventies,but,my gosh,there were so many things IH should have done then,I still don't believe the 88 series would have saved them alone without doing the other things.Every IH enthusiast should own and read "A CORPORATE TRAGEDY",you need to arm yourself with the facts when you hear other people talk crap about IH.I don't know why I am such an enthusiast for IH other than the fact that my grandpa chose red in 1949 when he traded 2 mules in on a new Farmall A.I have ran a wide horsepower range of IH's from a 130 to a 1086,my cousin has a 5288,but I've never had an opportunity to run it.Red may not have lasted and maybe they weren't the best,but they were,are and always will be the best to me.The red paint and the IH logo make me think of my Grandpa and recently departed dear uncle,and they weren't fools.

[Ben Towe]

I know this is not the thread to argue and I am not bashing anyone. We own a 5488 and a 5288. We also own a 2594 and a 2590 Case. The 2594 with the 6 speed power shift was the smoothest shifting power shift made, and the 2590 was smoother shifting than a 4840 JD. The only time we have opened up the rear end on the Cases was to replace brake disc's. The Case tractors we have are more reliable that the 50 series IH. I am not a mechanic I am just a farmer who owns both brands of tractors. For you to say Case tractors are junk just tells me you do not know what you are talking about.

Maybe you're just lucky or something but I've never seen a Case that was anything but trouble. A lot of the big tobacco farmers around here buy them because they're so cheap. Usually they ain't worth it. Apparently they inherited quality control and innovation from IH, of course many of the first CaseIH tractors were rebadged IHs so the quality got a major boost right off the bat. I always thought it was a shame the IH name had to take a back seat to Case though.

You got it backwards Ben,the first Case-IH tractors offered for sale were re-badged Case tractors that were painted red.

Take a look at a 685 or an 885 sometime. The only thing that says Case International on them is the badge on the side. Every other part is stamped IH. They are a rebadged 84 series.

[Bulldogred]

I know this is not the thread to argue and I am not bashing anyone. We own a 5488 and a 5288. We also own a 2594 and a 2590 Case. The 2594 with the 6 speed power shift was the smoothest shifting power shift made, and the 2590 was smoother shifting than a 4840 JD. The only time we have opened up the rear end on the Cases was to replace brake disc's. The Case tractors we have are more reliable that the 50 series IH. I am not a mechanic I am just a farmer who owns both brands of tractors. For you to say Case tractors are junk just tells me you do not know what you are talking about.

Maybe you're just lucky or something but I've never seen a Case that was anything but trouble. A lot of the big tobacco farmers around here buy them because they're so cheap. Usually they ain't worth it. Apparently they inherited quality control and innovation from IH, of course many of the first CaseIH tractors were rebadged IHs so the quality got a major boost right off the bat. I always thought it was a shame the IH name had to take a back seat to Case though.

You got it backwards Ben,the first Case-IH tractors offered for sale were re-badged Case tractors that were painted red.

Take a look at a 685 or an 885 sometime. The only thing that says Case International on them is the badge on the side. Every other part is stamped IH. They are a rebadged 84 series.

Let me clarify my statement, I was referring to over 100hp tractors.

[Ben Towe]

I know this is not the thread to argue and I am not bashing anyone. We own a 5488 and a 5288. We also own a 2594 and a 2590 Case. The 2594 with the 6 speed power shift was the smoothest shifting power shift made, and the 2590 was smoother shifting than a 4840 JD. The only time we have opened up the rear end on the Cases was to replace brake disc's. The Case tractors we have are more reliable that the 50 series IH. I am not a mechanic I am just a farmer who owns both brands of tractors. For you to say Case tractors are junk just tells me you do not know what you are talking about.

Maybe you're just lucky or something but I've never seen a Case that was anything but trouble. A lot of the big tobacco farmers around here buy them because they're so cheap. Usually they ain't worth it. Apparently they inherited quality control and innovation from IH, of course many of the first CaseIH tractors were rebadged IHs so the quality got a major boost right off the bat. I always thought it was a shame the IH name had to take a back seat to Case though.

You got it backwards Ben,the first Case-IH tractors offered for sale were re-badged Case tractors that were painted red.

Take a look at a 685 or an 885 sometime. The only thing that says Case International on them is the badge on the side. Every other part is stamped IH. They are a rebadged 84 series.

Let me clarify my statement, I was referring to over 100hp tractors.

I am not as familiar with those. We have a 5230 at work which would be the closest to that range I know a lot about. I think its around 100 horse. I'm more of a 56 series man myself, as you can see from my signature.

[ohio farmer]

In my part of the country, we had a lot of rear end and ta trouble with the 86 series.

People around here, that had been IH for as long as I can remember, started changeing to the 40 series Deeres.

46 and 4840's.

When the 50 series IH came out, I believed they had a tractor with the iron in the rear to hold up to any other brand. They didn't last long before Case bought them out, and dropped the 50 series in favor of their Case tractors being built in Racine, Wisconson.

We had a dealer in our area that had a fire sale on the last bunch of the Case units that were painted red.

I think he sold around 50-60 because Case was making deals that the more tractors dealers sold, the more thy would discount, so he was selling them at half price. I have neighbors that bought 2 because the price was so low. That was just before the 71 series magnums came out.

I got to tour the Racine plant and see the magnums being built. Very cool tour.

Also got to tour the combine plant in Moline on the same trip.

Sat at a table, for supper, with one of the original engineers of the rotor combine. He said that since Case had bought out IH, they had made all the changes to the combines that they wanted to make when IH owned the company, but did not have the money to make the upgrades.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bulldogred]

A basic fact that people are unaware of because they don't know the facts,is that Case did not buyout IH ag.Tenneco bought IH ag and merged it with Case to become Case-IH.This is what irritates me about people who refer to Case-IH equipment as Case.If you research Case -IH equipment today,there is very little Case heritage in it.Most of what they sell today are products designed by International Harvester some 30 odd years ago that have been upgraded and modernized over the years.Case brought very little to the table in the merger,if Tenneco hadn't been around there would not be a Case-IH brand,Case would have long been out of ag and without a buyer for IH ag,Navistar would not be here either.IH was absolutely desperate in 83 to keep from going bankrupt.they sold IH ag to TENNECO for about 550 million in cash and Tenneco stock. Get the book and read it for yourself.

[Ben Towe]

A basic fact that people are unaware of because they don't know the facts,is that Case did not buyout IH ag.Tenneco bought IH ag and merged it with Case to become Case-IH.This is what irritates me about people who refer to Case-IH equipment as Case.If you research Case -IH equipment today,there is very little Case heritage in it.Most of what they sell today are products designed by International Harvester some 30 odd years ago that have been upgraded and modernized over the years.Case brought very little to the table in the merger,if Tenneco hadn't been around there would not be a Case-IH brand,Case would have long been out of ag and without a buyer for IH ag,Navistar would not be here either.IH was absolutely desperate in 83 to keep from going bankrupt.they sold IH ag to TENNECO for about 550 million in cash and Tenneco stock. Get the book and read it for yourself.

You are right about that. J.I. Case was already through as its own company well before the downfall of IH. I'd say that Tenneco was as desperate to buy the Ag Division as International was to sell it. Without knowing the numbers I'd say that the Case tractors had virtually no market share by the mid 80s and they were operating the company without making any money to speak of. They needed IHs market share even though they had to reorganize the company. They simply had the capital to do it and IH did not. That's just my thoughts on it.