IH 250B

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

I have a 250 track loader, series B I believe. The serial # is 6126. I was told it is a 1967, but have never verified that. I know this topic has come up before, but I don’t know how it has been handled as parts seem to be nonexistent. The bottom track rollers are completely shot. I have spent a lot of time calling and emailing different people/companies with no luck looking for anything new or used. I want to keep this machine going so I need some advice. I called Berco and the man I talked to was knowledgeable enough to tell me that they no longer supply any parts for this machine. My Komatsu PSR said they can’t get anything anymore. What have others done? Convert it to CAT rollers? Someone told me that TD20E rollers will fit with some modification. I have a CAT undercarriage conversion book for this machine, but some of the needed parts are NLA. Anyone have any actual experience with this problem that can say how they actually fixed it without guessing what I should do? I am located in the Kansas City, MO area in the USA. 

[farmalldr]

You might try here if you haven't already.  They are in California.  Good luck      Dennis

http://www.fpsmitheq.com/

[Broach1]

I was able to find some good used ones for my 250E at Weller tractor in Great Bend Kansas might be worth checking with them if you haven't already . Bradley

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

I called F P Smith early on in my search. They were unable to supply me with any. I will try Weller Tractor since that is someplace I have not tried yet. Even if I am able to source some good used ones, I don’t know what will happen with these machines in the future. 7.5” rails, sprockets and pads are impossible to find if I ever need them someday as well. I have called every place that I can think of looking for someone that can build up these rollers and all they tell me is that it is cheaper to buy new that to build them up. I tell them that may be true, but what if you can’t find new ones? Silence is all I have heard on the other end of the phone. 

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

Weller was unable to help, so I’m still looking. 

[farmalldr]

Here's another to try.  In Wisconsin

Thilltractor.com

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

Yes, I have talked to them. My Komatsu dealer recommended Blue Ridge Tractor in Illinois for possibly some new parts from Dressta. They could not come up with a good part number that was available or in interchange. 

[pede]

Your best bet is the cat conversion, what's NLA? guessing sprockets? I was in the same boat with the 20/250C's, Cat had everything, rollers and or track frame needed a little mod but could not find sprockets, even found a company that flame cuts them but they would not return my inquiries, think they wanted production runs not one off's. Bad part is, once you spend the 20grand or so to put new shoes on her, something else goes bang and your right back to this point.   

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

My CAT conversion book says to use 4S9051 single flange rollers and 8S2933 double flange rollers. Those roller numbers sub to a new roller that is still available from CAT. The only issue, that I assume could be addressed with the help of a good machine shop, is the book says to use holeless end collars. These are NLA. At one time CAT supplied the end collars for the rollers and then you could just drill them to fit the frame that you have. It does not mention having to modify the track frames to get the roller to fit. I have done some checking and it appears that these rollers were used on some older D7 machines and some 977 loaders. I have looked on machinery trader and there are lots of theses machines for parts. Maybe I would have some luck finding used cat parts instead?

The machine that I have has all double flange rollers. I assume this is not right, but perhaps it was all someone could find in the past. Does anyone know what the arrangement of double and single flange rollers should be on this machine? It has seven rollers on each side.

My conversion book says to switch rails to 8.5“ pitch D7 chain and use 6T4178 sprocket segments. There is a note that says extensive machining required. I checked and that is still a good number so I guess a sprocket could be fabricated using those parts if a guy was determined enough and brought enough money to the machine shop. The book only lists single grouser pads, so I don’t know if there is a double bar or triple bar that exists that would fit that chain. Maybe someone else knows that? Anyway, if I can just get some rollers figured out the rest of my parts will last me a while. 

[pede]

Chances are you'll have the same problem with used rollers, the hole less flange would be nice since anything drilled for a cat may not work, but could weld in the old and drill new. The problem I had frame was to narrow by like .25, so grind the flange or frame. Had the double/single discussion before(not here) and consensuses was to use all double, they seem to hold alignment better but maybe double front and back, single next to them then double and finish with the a single in the middle, single were always less money but the loader might suppose to be all doubles anyways. Find a used roller and see what you got to do. My conversion book also said extensive machining for sprocket, never looked into that. So now you've spent 30grand and have not only nice undercarriage but set up so it can be easily replaced down the road, but it's still IH and in 5 or 10 years what about the other parts you'll need, you know what it's like today. 

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

I agree with everything you have said pede. You sound like you have a lot of experience with the problems that I am just now experiencing. It is terrible what has happened to the parts and service of this once great brand. Do you have any experience with parts availability on the drive train on any of these models? I assume gears can be fabricated if needed, but what about clutch disks, pumps, etc? My exhaust manifold is in terrible shape and I have had no luck with parts for that. FP Smith has them for a later serial #, but it won’t work on this machine without some modifications and a different turbo at a minimum. Case IH or anyone else doesn’t even supply the exhaust gaskets anymore. I really enjoy keeping this old iron going, frustration and all. 

[pede]

Gears and stuff like that can usually be found in the bone yards, good list of them on this site, company has new clutch disks but the name escapes me, someone may chime in on that. Ahhhh, exhaust...something that no body can find, this is one of the last things I did to my 20 before it went to auction. We built one, did away with the problematic slip joints and went to the modern style ring clamps but took a ton of machining and fab work, I was lucky to have a good friend with a machine shop and did all the welding myself but I still had a lot of time and money in it. I use to have a good contact in Chicago that would send us blueprint copies of parts and sometimes even the last company that made them but sadly after the last sale all of that is locked up in a warehouse in Texas and last I knew no access.  

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

I appreciate the replies on here. I am new to this forum and am thankful for the help. I have lots of experience with older machinery, but all of it is farm machinery. I have had lots of problems with obsolete parts over the years. It can be frustrating. I have never had to give up on anything yet. Most of the problems have not been finding the solution, but coming up with enough money to apply the solution. Boards like this can be a real help with projects/repairs like this. It looks like I will have my work cut out for me whatever I decide to do. 
 

Farming is getting ready to get very busy and as that is how I make my living this project will most likely have to wait for a little while. I look forward in the future, given enough free time, to posting some pictures and updates on this machine. 

[hardtail]

https://www.hendersonmfgco.com/parts/parts_weld_on_sprocket_rims.htm

[farmalldr]

Happy farming.  Watch ebay for rollers.  Dennis

[ray54]

Roller you can weld them yourself. From what I have read and seen on youtube, seem they are better if you have it turning as you weld. A slow boring job but not real hard. During WW2 Cat put out instructions on welding undercarriage, they where available on the ACMOC web site.  Guys fixing old gas Cats had good luck with the process.

 

The steering clutch parts are available from General Gear in Idaho.

[Ian Beale]

1 hour ago, ray54 said:

Roller you can weld them yourself. From what I have read and seen on youtube, seem they are better if you have it turning as you weld.

IIRC Mike Newman had something on this not so far back

[Rawleigh99]

I have that cat brochure if you need a copy.

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

When I bought this machine three of the rollers were worn so much the inside flange is no longer attached to the rest of the roller. The roller flange is still there bouncing around unattached. I don’t think it was caused by mis-alignment, that is just how much “meat” is missing from the roller. Perhaps some of the other rollers could still be salvaged, but I don’t know if there is anything that can be done with those. The amount of welding that would be required on the rollers still in one piece would be significant. Everyone I have talked to has told me that welding that much on a roller this diameter is likely impossible due to problems from keeping it cool and likely shrinking the roller. I have not owned this machine long, but the condition it is in is typical of a lot of old machinery that I have seen. The previous owner just used it and used it until it was no longer operable and then “sent it on down the road”. I was well aware of the condition and paid accordingly.
 

I am not experienced in sourcing parts for IH crawlers and have been somewhat surprised with the difficulty. I knew it would be slow and somewhat difficult, but did not think so many parts would be completely obsolete and no longer obtainable even in the used market. This machine and maybe others like it seem to have no better parts availability than many of the Allis crawlers that I have heard so many people complain about over the years. As pede said earlier, I think some kind of a conversion with more readily available parts is the only thing that is going to keep this machine in service. Although I am still holding out hope that I will stumble across some parts that will make that unnecessary. 

[pede]

I've welded up rollers for years, even built a jig to turn and cool with the mig gun fixed. This isn't as easy as it sounds, first thing is to have the right wire or rod, most will recommend buildup then hard face, we found a wire that worked for both but as time went by it got pricey. Next you'll need a welder that runs 100% duty cycle at around 300 amps. Last is the roller it's self, we've found that if you need to buildup more then 3/4 of an inch it get's tricky, most are considered junk at 1in, takes 7 or 8 passes to get that much on and what happens the shell will constrict even with cooling and stick. We never considered machining those as it was not cost effective at that time, today maybe but 2 big problems, if the flange is gone that is almost impossible to buildup and good luck finding seals.     

[hardtail]

7.5” pitch was used as the severe duty TD15C undercarriage which maybe still available, I would have to try and find specs for the roller widths as the 250 loader would have way bigger load ratings, need to check if this was used on others machines, this is jumping 2 machine sizes larger so doubtful, yours would be similar to TD25B and probably used double flange rollers being a loader, surprised the pitch isn’t in the 8” range....

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

The pitch on mine is definitely 7.5”. My understanding is that the rollers on a 250 loader are the same as a TD20 of the same vintage/year. I have been told that TD20’s used 7.5 or 8.5 pitch and 250’s at least earlier ones were all 7.5” I’m not sure about later models. If there is any new parts for this loader I have been unable to locate them or talk to anyone who knows anything about them. My Komatsu PSR did look for quite some time to come up with anything and they could not. Dressta said they didn’t supply anything. I live near Kansas City, Missouri and there is a very large Caterpillar dealer here and they wouldn’t even hardly talk to me until I came up with my own book that had the Caterpillar part numbers necessary for the conversion. I had no luck at all asking them to come up with part numbers based on specifications. Once I said International Harvester they had a blank look on their face. Their track shop advertises as being able to put Caterpillar brand tracks on anything, but that was not my experience. I picked up one new Caterpillar roller a few days ago to see if we can make it work. It is from their “Classic” Line of parts. CAT was the best deal I could find, mostly because there was no freight on stock order to the dealer. Cost me $327.01 for one D7 roller before tax. The OEM roller they tried to sell Me first were nearly $700 a piece. 

[pede]

Yes, early 20 had 7.5, later had 8.5, I had both, quick reference on the difference is the dash, older will be long and narrow and newer will be more square. I would think you'd have better luck at a Berco or ITP dealer but the key will be to find someone willing to do some research and not just a part number guy, good luck.   

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

I have been thinking of possibly putting some time in on this loader in the coming months. I wanted to try to get a game plan together. I thought it would probably be best to take the track frame(s) off and turn them upside down to try and retrofit the CAT rollers on. Is that the thing to do? Would it be better to modify the track frame or try to modify the end caps of the new rollers to fit the frame instead? Thoughts? The master pin on the chains has been welded in at some point. What is the best way to handle the removal? If I use a torch to blow out some of the center of the master pin are new ones even available? Also there are some pins that are loose in the links. Someone told me to just weld them so they won’t come out. Is that the best thing to do? Is there a way to repair them as no parts seem to be available? Any thoughts appreciated. @pedemaybe?
 

I did take it out and run it just a little bit this spring just to see if it was in good running condition. I pushed over some trees, it seemed very strong. It leaks gear oil out of the planetary covers on both sides like crazy though. I didn’t notice too many leaks on it, but I’m sure there’s more. I really am looking forward to being able to put it to work at some point after some repairs. I would need to invest in some very good hearing protection. That straight pipe was screaming, but I loved it.

[pede]

Welded pins are common, if anything other then the master is working out, got to be beyond shot. I've been out of it to long now so I got no idea on parts but use to be able to get pins and bushings, and never had a problem with gettin a master pin, best bet is to torch it out. If you got the lifting capabilities pulling the track frame is way easier, only 6 bolts. I got a couple of pages somewhere that show the cat conversion but the problem will always be with the sprocket, believe it states lots of machining required, need someone with roughly a 4ft swing lathe for a start. leaking from the 3 gear shafts on the planetary cover is common, seen lots of fixes over the years, green Loctite is you friend here but will require disassembly or weld a ring with a bolted plate over them. I had a tractor fender radio with head phones that saved most of my hearing, nothing better then rollin coal out the straight pipe on a 573.