Crawler Flexplates

[Binderdan]

I picked up a new toy. Its a 1972 International 100C crawler loader. Has a powershift trans, 4 in 1 bucket, and rippers.

The mechanic who was working on it said it needed a torque converter, but after talking with the owner I am not so sure I agree. I asked him what happened and he said he was using the machine and he heard a noise and all movement stopped. I asked if hydraulics for the loader quit too and he said yes. Since the hydraulic pump is directly driven by the torque converter, not driven through it, and the fact that torque converters usually don't fail suddenly I suspect that the flexplate broke.

I had to work out of town for a while after I got it home so haven't had a chance to take it apart yet, so this is still just speculative. I did some searching for a replacement flexplate. The flexplate (PN# 619966C2) is common to IH TD-7C/100C, TD-7E/100E, TD-8C/125C, and TD-8E/125E. From my searching it seems this part is in demand and cracking is not uncommon. I did find a good used flexplate and got it bought. This flexplate is just flat with holes in it not a complex stamping like automotive ones. I could have my local machine shop copy my good flexplate to keep a spare around since they are getting hard to find. I hear there are specialty places that make flexplates that I could have copy this one and make a few. I could keep one and sell the rest.

According to the IH service manual if the flexplate cracks or breaks there must be an alignment problem that needs to be corrected, and the manual gives a set of measurements that must be taken with a dial indicator to ensure the engine, bell housing, and flywheel are all in alignment. I suspect worn or failing bearings that support the torque converter could also cause misalignment. Of course I will inspect all of this once apart.

However I feel like OEM manuals are written with a 10 or less year old machine in mind. Not a machine with 51 years of abuse and metal fatigue. So the possibility of failure from abuse and metal fatigue were not mentioned in the manual but I suspect at this point is a good possibility in machines of this age.

Question #1: Does my abuse and metal fatigue theory hold any merit that would make so many of these flexplates crack/break these days?

Question #2: Anyone know of companies that specialize in making flexplates for machinery that would do a small run of 10 or so? So far my searches have only turned up automotive and racing stuff.

If you want to see more on this loader check out the video on my channel. There will be more to come once I tear into it.

 

[mike newman]

...I would be in total agreement with your   diagnosis  of cracked/ broken out flex plate......

...I have no such experience with those   particular  American made IH power shift little crawlers ...but have seen many odd failures of parts over the years from age /fatigue and abuse....

I had two 6x4 Mercedes   Benz    dump trucks.....(among others ...)      We fitted a 16 speed Spicer G /Box into one of them...It removed one   of the two clutch plate    centers after a few days ....replaced the clutch plate ......ditto again after a few days....so did extensive measuring with dial gauge micrometers etc...found the   ''adaptor'  plate to mount the Spicer onto the Merc engine was but a few thousands of an inch out...and that combined with curious shape ''bell housing '' on the Merc block...which needed removed and planed...made the heavy Spicer box hang down.....just a tiny bit ..but enough misalignment   to take out the clutch plate center...Talking just maybe 20 thou of the inch  but after the ''realignment'...no further issues.....

Thus your thoughts re a few worn bearings etc   could well cause sufficient misalignment ...and...throw in those fifty years  of use......I think you could be right on the money there....

I noticed when you pulled the Crawler over the pivot point onto that bloody nice trailer...the chains bound up on the stone guards.....guess the  chains by the look of grouser spacing have run their race.....nice tidy tractor though....!!

Mike

[hardtail]

Nice save, very handy sized machine ♥️

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

It looks like you have a good assortment of IH industrial equipment @Binderdan

[Binderdan]

Thanks for your input Mike! Its surprising such a fast clutch failure with such a small misalignment in your Mercedes. Guess it doesn't take much.

Thanks Hardtail and Dirt_Floor! I do have a few IH Payline toys. And a couple more that may happen yet this year if the deal works out.

The previous mechanic had pulled the radiator, hood, and started unbolting the engine to be removed. Manual says to pull engine and torque converter as one unit. Doesn't look like a good time but I have done worse. Previous owner and mechanic both commented on how well it ran. Debating if I will have to drop the belly pan to access some converter hoses. I think I would be wise to drop the belly pan to make removing hoses easier, not to mention clean out the 50 years of dirt and debris from the top side of it.

I think I would also be wise to take the torque converter apart while out to inspect it. I have found the gasket and seal kit, but the smaller thrst bearings are tough to find so far. 

I have put together most of a complete NOS decal kit. If I can find the remaining few I plan to get them scanned and made available to others in new correct sets for TD-7C/100C and TD-8C/125C machines. Kind of exciting for myself and others!

I am still searching for these pictured below. If you or anyone has even a nice original example on their machine to photograph, I need it! Otherwise I will have to resort to expensive and time consuming methods. Lubrication Table (dozer or loader, need both), "INTERNATIONAL" on instrument panel, and "INTERNATIONAL" on nose.

[mmi]

That transport went WAY too EASY.

Have had 2 trucks chained together ,blocks and pusher, still drug everything under the load with 100' of cable and 3 blocks.Almost same to unload.

Only #10500 scaled ,dead weight .

Thats why we need to build a no ramp trailer

[hardtail]

Hopefully someone has equipment brochures that might have an operator station pic of that model, can't be many that aren't long gone now

[Binderdan]

A little update for anyone who cares...

Started getting the engine and torque converter assembly ready to pull on the 100C. With all the extra frame of the crawler loader, and the older "large transmission" it leaves a lot to be desired for room when working under the floor. Got the belly pans pulled to clean them out and make it easier to access hoses to remove them. They were FULL of dirt, rat poop, and pine cones.

Removing the U joint bolts has been one of the most challenging things so far. Hard to access, and can only fit one arm in at a time. Then figuring out how to hold the yoke while I break the allen head bolts loose on the U joint was difficult. Took me 3.5 hours to get 4 U joint bolts out.

Removing the flywheel access cover I think I can confirm my suspicion. The torque converter spins freely with one finger while the flywheel sits still. With a flashlight I can see the crack in the flexplate. 

[mmi]

One of another club has had so many issues with a d6, he has a 4' deep pit for working ,all was going ok with no rain 2mo, then didnt stop for a week,parts floated right out.

Every system is going to be new before it stops,would have been cheaper to stake the chains and roll a new body on top 2yrs $15 K ago.

 

[hardtail]

Always a bit of archeology taking out the belly pans, surprised you didn't turn up some tools, looks like an accurate assessment and your on track, looks very clean really.

[louie figone]

11 hours ago, Binderdan said:

A little update for anyone who cares...

Started getting the engine and torque converter assembly ready to pull on the 100C. With all the extra frame of the crawler loader, and the older "large transmission" it leaves a lot to be desired for room when working under the floor. Got the belly pans pulled to clean them out and make it easier to access hoses to remove them. They were FULL of dirt, rat poop, and pine cones.

Removing the U joint bolts has been one of the most challenging things so far. Hard to access, and can only fit one arm in at a time. Then figuring out how to hold the yoke while I break the allen head bolts loose on the U joint was difficult. Took me 3.5 hours to get 4 U joint bolts out.

Removing the flywheel access cover I think I can confirm my suspicion. The torque converter spins freely with one finger while the flywheel sits still. With a flashlight I can see the crack in the flexplate. 

Dan, I have the twin to your 100C, it's a 1972 model I bought in '76, I had the torque convertor spring a leak in '84, we pulled the engine to remove the torque converter, I don't remember it being a bad job, I did lengthen the loader safety bar to lock the bucket higher, we used a cherry picker to remove the engine through the front, it was a close fit between the bucket and the top of the grill. They are great little tractors, we have not had any major problems with the tractor, it still runs great.

[Binderdan]

Louie that's a nice looking machine!

Finally got the engine ready to lift. I left the two pumps attached to the tractor and unbolted them from the torque converter housing. Manual says dash panel needs to come out but I left it in place as a couple bolts were not going to cooperate. The 510 Payloader was selected for lifting duty. It lifted just high enough to clear the bucket cylinder.

With the engine safely on the ground I tried to block it up on the mounts but found the rear mount rubbers were completely deteriorated. The rubber was the consistency of Jello. So those will be added to the parts list. Made it difficult to stabilize on blocks.

The two pumps stayed in place and I got a photo for reference. I will hopefully power wash all the dirt and debris out before reassembly. A few of the wires and gauges looked to be damaged previously. The torque converter temperature sender had been cut. Its a bulb type like the coolant temp gauge. I think those can be repaired, but I'll look into it more. Going to replace all the cracked and questionable hoses while I'm in there.

[Binderdan]

Removed the strainer in the transmission to check and clean it. I was relieved to see nothing of concern, just what looked to be some grass, dirt, and a dead bug carcass or two. Nothing metallic or friction material looking. Makes me feel better about using the majority of the 55 gallon drum of Viscosity Ultraction I bought mostly for this machine.

I cleaned up the strainer cover and replaced the O-ring part number 285253R1 which is superseded to 69122 and readily available through Case IH.

I unbolted the flexplate from the flywheel and I used my little Hough HA with its boom attachment to lift the torque converter as I unbolted it. This went pretty smooth as I removed the torque converter assembly from the flywheel housing. Upon removal the diagnosis was clear! Broken flexplate! I grabbed the torque converter and wiggled and spun it. It spun smoothly with no wiggle movement. I saw no leaks coming from behind the torque converter so I see no reason to tear down the torque converter. I did find all the seals, gaskets, and bearings to do this but no reason to spend an extra $1,000 and many hours of labor if its not needed.

As I mentioned earlier the IH manual states that if the flexplate is broken to check for alignment issues. I will be following the procedure outlined in the book before reassembly but I am still thinking that the cause was abuse and 51+ years of metal fatigue and cracking.

A few areas of concern were the rear engine mounts, rear main seal, ring gear, some hoses and O rings. The rear engine mount rubber was completely deteriorated, the remaining rubber was as squishy as Jello. Unfortunately all of my sources showed none to be found, however I did find some new ones from Dressta in Poland that I will be ordering from a Dressta dealer in the US, part number 3136287R2. There was some oil in the flywheel housing, not much but enough that I will replace the rear main seal while I'm in here. The rubber may be getting hard after 51+ years. The rear main seal is still available through Case IH part number 3138701R91, and the gasket that goes on the piece that holds the rear main seal is also available through Case IH part number 3055215R1 supersedes to 3055215R4.

I will be replacing any cracking or damaged hoses, having them made locally. There is an O-ring sealing the pump drive face to the torque converter housing on both pumps. This is IH part number 468339R1 which supersedes to 87421147 and readily available through Case IH. I will also replace the rear seal on the torque converter just because its easy to do and the original is probably getting hard after 51+ years. The rear torque converter seal is part number 619982C91 and is available through Dressta as well as other after market sources.

The starter ring gear was still acceptable but did show some minor damage and deformed teeth. Book calls out a part number 304439R1 which supersedes to a 1818739C1 through Case IH but is discontinued. However is still available through Navistar (International Truck) but not cheap! The Dressta dealer mentioned this was a 124 tooth ring gear and there was also a 134 tooth ring gear part number 3144607R1, however I have not been able to find any reference to this or a reason for the difference. I will have to count my ring gear teeth and inspect to determine if it's worth the $400+ price tag to replace it at this time.

To my surprise the Dressta dealer informed me that new flexplates (part number 619966C2) are still available new through Dressta and they even had them in stock. And less than half the price I paid for the used one I got. 😒   I think I will abandon my plans to make a run of them at the machine shop and just buy a new one and keep the used one around as a spare in case they are discontinued someday.

There are rubber bushings on the fuel line connections where I disconnected them to remove the engine. These are part number 265204R1 and referred to a "sleeve" in the book. These are still readily available through Case IH.

As far as the torque converter temperature gauge I found with the capillary tube broken, I found a NOS Dresser gauge with capillary tube for $50 so I got it bought! I may try to fix the original first before using it because someone on here can put new capillary tubes on temp gauges for tractor clusters, maybe they can fix this one. Roberts Tractor maybe? Anyone know?

[hardtail]

Well everything going fairly smoothly all things considered and majority of parts still available 😊 i would think with those rear motor mounts being that bad that might at minimum be contributing to the flexplate problem, nice to see your lineup in action, these machines are fortunate to find you and some others on here.

[Rawleigh99]

On a lot of motors you can heat the ring gear, remove it, flip it over and reinstall.  i don't know if yours will do that, but it might save you $400.00!  The back side looks to be in good shape!

[Binderdan]

The flipping of the ring gear may be possible.  I'll have to check closer but I think the damage is across the whole tooth.

If anyone cares here is a videos update.  Not quite as current as the thread on here.

 

[Binderdan]

An update on this project...

After calling the Dressta dealer I was dealing with to do a second follow up on the parts, the person I had talked to twice swore I had never talked to him before and he passed me to someone else who after some searching found the notes with the list of parts I had talked to them about. Unfortunately the ball had been dropped and no progress had been made in the month and a half of waiting, and some of the information I had gotten from them before was inaccurate... 😖

The new flexplate they supposedly had in stock was non existent, and they are not actually still available as I had been told. So I have taken my used one to a machine shop to have a run of them made. More to come on that...

The rear engine mounts they had told me were on order from Poland were actually discontinued... I have exhausted all of my sources for NOS parts. So I am working to remove all the pieces of my original mounts. I will be making an engineering drawing of them and sending the original shaft and outer shell off the be re-vulcanized. If the outer shell is machined rather than stamped metal I may make a few more of the metal pieces to be sent off and vulcanized as well to have new spares. I would love to get a used or NOS one for more accurate dimensions, but no luck yet. I considered machining polyurethane to fit where the rubber was but having experience with polyurethane engine mounts in automobiles they are harder and don't dampen vibration as well, however they do resist deterioration better. I'd prefer rubber like the originals.

The lower radiator hoses are also no longer available, so I will be trying to find a picture of an original and looking for an off the shelf automotive hose that can be trimmed to fit properly. I will post here when I find one. If anyone has a photo of a lower radiator hose for a TD-7C or 100C please post a photo of the lower hose for shape reference. My original was missing when I got the machine.

Thankfully the upper radiator hose, the outer radiator mount, torque converter seal, and hydraulic filter gasket are still available and have now been ordered.

I borrowed a friends steam cleaner and power washed the engine compartment and transmission areas. I think it will take a second cleaning before I am satisfied enough to reinstall the engine and torque converter.

On a happier note I went to look at a International 500C dozer with less than 200 original hours. Stay tuned for a video on it! But it had the front nose decal that should be the same as I need for my 100C. I got good photos and measurements of the decal! What a awesome time capsule of a machine! Only ever used to push snow, and kept inside since new!

Here is the video update of the engine removal and suction screen cleaning if anyone is interested. Still a bit outdated compared to this thread, but still entertaining. Who wouldn't want to see the 510 Payloader in action?

 

[hardtail]

I know their prices are high but does FP Smith have any of the obsolete items?

I take it the 500 isn't for sale?

[louie figone]

Dan, here is an OEM lower radiator hose for the 100C. Not for sale, it's my spare. 667267C1 is a Komatsu part number. I'll take it to our NAPA store tomorrow to see if they can match it up with something close.

[Binderdan]

Hardtail I did check with FP Smith and unfortunately no luck on those. They are one of my go-to places, but like you said kinda spendy.

The 500C is in a private collection belonging to a friend. I don't think he will part with it in his lifetime.

louie figone thank you for that photo! Gives me at least something to go off of. Hopefully one of us can come up with a off the shelf automotive solution. What is the inside diameter of the hose? Both ends same?

I talked to a retired Dresser mechanic yesterday who confirmed the outer portion of the rear engine mounts are metal, and is driven into the bell housing. Meaning the outer shell is still in my bell housing and I have to find a way to remove it without destroying it. If I'm successful I may try to make a few inner and outer pieces on my lathe to send off to be vulcanized. Giving me a few new parts as spares or to sell.

[louie figone]

10 minutes ago, Binderdan said:

What is the inside diameter of the hose? Both ends same?

2 inch ID both ends.

[Binderdan]

An update with some good news! Louie Figone sent me some information on a radiator hose and I have been doing some searching. But I went home last weekend and spotted the 100C radiator hidden away(to prevent potential theft) I saw the lower radiator hose still on the radiator! Such a relief! So I removed it and went to a couple auto parts stores in hopes to find an automotive hose with similar size and curvature I could trim to make work on machines like these. No luck yet but I'm still looking.

I also attempted to remove the outer ring of the rear engine mount. Removing it without damaging it was not possible, so I finally took a Sawzall and carefully cut a groove in it so it would be able to be driven out. Once I had the cut in the outer ring it came out easily along with the plug behind it. So I was then able to get thorough measurements of the mounts and the bore they fit into.

As you can see the mount (seen above with ring around shaft) is not a complex design and the two metal pieces can be easily replicated on a lathe. In my mind the vulcanization process shouldn't be too bad as the metal parts themselves create almost a mold themselves.

I began to call around to see who would vulcanize my parts.  Unfortunately the very few I found who do the process, mostly for antique cars, were not interested in taking on anything new. One company was very informative and offered a few other solutions but none that would work for this particular piece. They told me the processes and costs involved in such a project and it was pretty disheartening. If I had 20 of these made and vulcanized I would have to sell the 18 extras for almost $1,000 each to come close to breaking even on such a small run due to custom tooling that would be required. The process involves a lot of heat, pressure, and nasty chemicals. Not something I could even attempt at home. Although I have one more place to call, its looking like vulcanized rubber is out...

So I reached out to a company that specializes in low production and prototyping of polyurethane materials. They were very informative and helpful. I had been reluctant to go with polyurethane because of mine, and most people's experience with polyurethane automotive engine mounts and suspension bushings. They tend to be much harder and not absorb vibrations and noise well. I was assured by the representative that urethane has come a long way and they could do a whole spectrum of durometer (hardness or softness) ratings to get something close to the original vulcanized rubber. Some added benefits to urethane over rubber would be its resistance to deterioration by contaminants like oil and chemicals, and a much longer service life. The best part was the tooling cost would likely be minimal for this particular job, and with a production run of 20 units I would be in the neighborhood of $250 to $400 each. I think I could sell these extras if I was in the $300 or less range and recover the costs. Then any additional runs would be even less. I am building some CAD drawings and specs to send off to him to get a better quote and we will see how it goes.

I have yet to hear back from the machine shop on the flexplate, but I will be following up next week.

Here is a updated picture after power washing the front of the transmission. Unfortunately it did expose a couple more hoses that need replaced while I'm in there. The small ones go to the shift lever and control direction and range. A couple were deteriorated.

[Rawleigh99]

As a wild long shot have you looked at marine motor mounts for an alternative?

[Binderdan]

Rawleigh that's a neat thought. Spent some time this morning looking at the marine engine mounts you mentioned. I think in a pinch something like that could be adapted to work.

Good news! Called the machine shop and they were done with my reproduction flexplates! IH/Dresser part number 619966C2 are in my hands! These are exact as original except made with 304 stainless steel. I had a run of 20 made and I am looking to recoup my costs. If you would like to buy one please reach out to me in a private message. I need to recover some expense soon so I can use that money toward a run of the engine mounts.

These flexplates fit International and Dresser TD-7C, TD-7E, TD-8C, TD-8E, 100C, 100E, 125C, and 125E. Possibly G series too but I'll have to check my parts books.

[mmi]

as the name implies.... do they? does the 304 have the same properties?

simply 2 pcs coupler needing a convenient name?