Learning alot, but want more info

[660 driver]

Bingo Farmall400! Why in the heck would you hire a copy machine exec to run an ag based company? You couldn't find two industries that were further apart in those days. Refresh my memory here boys but which McCormick donated all that money to art institutes and other useless crap like that? I wanna say I heard it was fowler.

[234-IA]

660: you're probably thinking of brooks mc cormick. he graduated from yale with a degree in english, of all things. and though the history says he worked his way up through the company, i think the only reason he was there at all is because it was the family business.

but for what it's worth, there isn't anything wrong with art institutes - just means brooks probably should have quit harvester much sooner than he did and spent his time looking at paintings and riding horses

Edited January 29, 2013 by 234-IA

[Bulldogred]

The demise began with Fowler and his policy of trying to take down Cat,along with investing in refridgeration.All that money should have been put into R&D for better farm equipment,plus Fowler was a part time CEO,spent more time in Europe than Chicago.He had the "too big to fail philosophy early".

[fivesix]

This is one of the most interesting threads I have read in a long time. I cant believe I only found this place again recently!

[Bobcat698]

Good reading thanks all!

[oldtech]

A friend of mine used to own an IH dealership here in eastern Wisconsin and before that was a block man for IH. He has worked for other dealerships since and was part owner of a parts re-distributor I also worked for so be bleeds red and has lots of stories of those days.

Everybody can remember what bad old days the 80s were in farming.

Regardless of your political beliefs its not disputable that Reagan was cutting ag programs and slashing price supports while going to the "fence row to fence row" policy which increased supply but also dropped prices.

We had also had a series of really bad crop years here in Wisconsin at least so farming was bad here. I quit in 87.

According to my friend the CEO of IH took this particular time to pick a fight with the union with the actual intent of breaking them.

He tells me that it was totally unnecessary since IH ruled the land at that time. JD had waited too long to change over from the 2 cyl days and the 10 and 20 series tractors werent selling well.

What was significant of that time was that the CEO chose it because it was when they were retooling for the 86 series. The strike delayed that line and starved the dealers from having product to sell.

Meanwhile JD had worked out a lot of their problems with the xx20s and had plenty tractors to sell.

By the time IH was again producing and had the new line out many people had switched brands and sales never recovered.

With farming in a huge recession and farms for sale all over and interest rates in the low 20% range it was hard enough to sell a tractor of any kind.

The one-two punch of the idiotic strike and the farm recession hit IH hard and lead to the sale to Case.

Of course Case had plenty of money since they were owned by Tenneco (Tennessee Oil Co.) and needed the advanced manufacturing and technology that IH had.

Lots of companies had invested in ag in the 70s. At one time New Holland was even owned by of all companies, Sperry (Univac) the computer company!

But when the recession hit they started to unload them and Tenneco was no different.

My friend closed his dealership around 89 after suffering too much damage.

The CASE/IH brand was taken over by the local Allis dealer.

Its just never been the same since.

I noticed that one of the farmers that crops my land has now switched to green too. I know he had problems with that big red unit and more than once found him broken down in my field with the hood off.

The local John Deere dealer has expanded to 5 locations now.

Really sad story in corporate arrogance, shifting politics and bad luck.

[oldtech]

Bingo Farmall400! Why in the heck would you hire a copy machine exec to run an ag based company? You couldn't find two industries that were further apart in those days. Refresh my memory here boys but which McCormick donated all that money to art institutes and other useless crap like that? I wanna say I heard it was fowler.

Yeah, you saw the same thing with J.C. Penny's recently where they hired a CEO out of cyberspace to turn that company around.

He put them right in the tank!

He came in and didnt understand the customers at all. It seems women like all those sales. We as men probably cant understand it either since its all a stupid game of cat and mouse but women love that kind of stuff.

So he gets rid of all the sales and other long traditions there and they go down like a rock in a pond.

It happens more than we know.

The whole high paid CEO thing is increasingly out of control. Their pals on the board give them bonuses even when the company is bleeding money.

[DIESELPOWER1466]

I really appriciate the honest posts speaking about the IH tractors from those who lived back then. What I mean is speaking pro's and con's of the old red we all love. One thing I never could deal with is people who eat sleep and breathe a certain color and won't ever speak anything against their favorite brand. For me and our family farm today we use the old IH's cause they're cheap to run and simple to work on.

It's nice to read how the major brands compared at the time of sale since I obviously wasn't around in those days. It would be nice to see some sort of graph showing tractor sales per brand for each year so as to compare who was leading the market at the time. At what point was the market swung over to John Deere?

IH was selling to Tenneco right around the time I was born so all I can do is read and talk to people to assess whats taken place. One thing i always wondered is how much of IH became part of the new company? When they bought the "AG" part of IH what all was transfered over? Was it just the rights to the designs and existing technology, or did they transfer much of the working engineers and so forth to CASE-IH?

In your opinion did the overall farming community benifit from this merger? Did CASE-IH improve the machinery available from then until now, or do you think IH would have done better on their own had they survived?

My Dad once told me that IH had their own approach and solution for everything. While I like much of what they produced, that doesnt always mean what they made is gold.

With John Deere growing like they have I'm curious to see where things will go. One thing I can attest to is Deere's vison of the "dealers of tomorrow". When I worked at the deere dealership that was presented in many of the company meetings. Here in Wisconsin the small Deere dealers are slowly being pushed out, as Corporate wants tighter control of their dealer network and the ability to set the price where they want. Going back to what I said above, Deere has their own solution for just about everything, but it is easy to see that they dont like to "conform" some of their technology to compatibility with other brands. I've seen some of this with ISO bus implement controls not working quite right.

[oldtech]

Case got the whole thing including the Rockford works.

Case and its current owners did not put innovation at a high priority.

I left farming in 87 so I didnt keep up but just looking at my friends and who has what Id have to say its obvious that IH became and also-ran that day.

For my part the M-H series set the standard for what a tractor should be.

I dont think you can say the same thing about the current units.

There is a farm equipment maker here that was trying to build some short line stuff for CASE-IH. I did some computer systems in CAD/CAM for them at that time.

Case/IH insisted on cutting the cost of the units so low that the early prototypes had to be redesigned because when they put them out on local farms the frames buckled!

You would have never seen that in the IH days.

[oldtech]

Its interesting you mentioned easy service.

Thats what attracted me to red.

There was very little you couldnt fix yourself short of major overhauls.

I had some JD stuff and man I just couldnt believe how $()W^)W*#%&*W$*! IMPOSSIBLE it was to do some really simple stuff like replace a sheer pin.

And that one 2 cyl I had could never be timed right.

Cost of parts played a role too. I hated to go to the JD dealer. Everything was more!

IH was good quality and designed right but not overbuilt either.

It was well balanced.

[DIESELPOWER1466]

We just went through this with our 5400 Deere SPFH. Its the only deere item we have with an engine. The 531 cooked in it last fall in corn so we replaced the engine with a reman 619. Needless to say my dad and I were less than impressed with what it took to remove and install the motor. We had to use a porta power to press the frame apart just to get the locating roll pins out of the engine block/frame. We also had to remove half of the left side of the engine just to get the block out of the narrow frame rails. Putting it in wasnt any more fun either. That and the huge hood over the engine is ONE BIG PIECE!

I told my dad we should have swapped a DT466 in!

I too was shocked at what things cost at the deere dealer. Once that JD is printed on the part its worth double it seems.

If Tenneco bought both Case and IH, why did and still does Case seem to have the big name and control? Such as Case New Holland? In your opinion will the IH part of CASEIH eventually dissapear as many other names in ag have?

[oldtech]

Ha!

How typical!

Its good to know they have not changed much.

I think they over engineer them and then just expect you to buy a new one and not fix it.

At the very least they are a welfare program for the dealers producing a lot of billed hours for the mechanics!

Its just baked into the way JD does things I guess.

Been that way for ever!

I avoid them even the lawn equipment for that reason.

I was showing a loyal Deere man my mower deck on my 149 and he commented all on his own how simple it was to change the belt compared to his.

Yep!

[oldtech]

What will happen to the brand?

Well its kind of like a soda brand I guess.

I think the old name is still worth something and the parts business is still profitable for them.

But I look around my area and I have to ask, where is all the red?

Very few of them in the field.

I see more Fendts than IH here.

Those that are, are the old ones.

I think the name will stick around but I dont think they will ever be what they were.

[DIESELPOWER1466]

It is interesting that you mention Fendt. I worked as a tech on them for about 7 years, I even got to train in Germany on them. I feel that they are the leading innovator as far as tractors these days much like IH was in days past. They revolutionized the ag world with the vario cvt, among other things like tractor management system"TMS" and teach in, front 3pt and PTO. It is a little known fact that Fendt began development of the extremely high efficiency hydro pumps and motors needed to make the vario practical. During the developmental stages what is now Sauer Danfoss approached Fendt as a partner in the process. Fendt released the first practical CVT and John Deere went straight to Sauer Danfoss and is using the same pump/motor Fendt designed in the IVT!

[DIESELPOWER1466]

The name is definately worth something. Ive noticed at Fleet Farm's in the area they have been marketing alot of IH clothing, stickers, hitch plugs, floor mats, mud flaps, etc. Not much Case stuff. Last time I was at Fleet I saw an M and an H full set of decals! That says something!

[oldtech]

The name is definately worth something. Ive noticed at Fleet Farm's in the area they have been marketing alot of IH clothing, stickers, hitch plugs, floor mats, mud flaps, etc. Not much Case stuff. Last time I was at Fleet I saw an M and an H full set of decals! That says something!

Yeah, Ive seen them there too.

Im going to need a set but would rather get them from the small shop here in St. Nazianz even if a bit more.

Did just see some on CL for $20. Dont know how much they usually run.

But yes, no case stuff is there?

No case colors on anything either.

Nobody bragging about their Case/IHs too much.

One guy that rents part of my land had one and last year I noted that he was stopping with the hood up fairly often.

And that he never really seemed to make much forward speed ever.

This year he is driving a green machine.

Pretty sad to see really.

[DIESELPOWER1466]

Gotta like Madsens. I go there for my cub parts most often.

The Fendt tractor is the only brand that can make a deere look silly. Thats why they are so popular around here. The R series really stepped it up, but the Fendt in my opinion is still the better machine.

[oldtech]

Well hey if you go there again stop in and see me!

I live just a couple miles from Nazianz. I can see the village lights at night.

North dead end of Greendale Rd!

The folks there are real nice and answer my stupid questions....

[DIESELPOWER1466]

I might just do that! If I can ever get away from workin' for more than 5 minutes! Farming and working full time cuts down on free play thats for sure!

Now If I only had a few billion dollars to throw around I would buy the IH name back and make it something again!

[656hydro]

All right you got me on that one I do not know of any quality control issues with the 86 series just poor shifting and a back breaking ride. By the early 80's we switched to a different brand and never looked back. Just answer a question for me. Why do people on this website like IH tractors so well for? I have never understood why.

I'm new to the forum and grew up w/ red tractors. What a great question tractorshark! You got a lot of worthwhile replies. I think we all wanted to know that. And keithnea, if you're not a big IH fan, your questions merits consideration. Speaking as an ih fan let me share my personal view & reason why many others feel the same. First consider the color red. I sell snow plows and have guys that don't want a yellow(Fisher- Western's sister or Meyer ), orange (Curtiss), white (Blizzard, Western's other sister) on the front of their pride & joy. If I was an equipment manufacturer first order of business would be red color. People are impressed w/ red. In Wisconsin most 20th century barns are red. In a crowd of women who stands out? The Lady in red. Ask singer Chris DeBurgh (Lady in Red). What color of collector cars are worth the most, esp small sports cars? Red. (Prince sang about Little Red Corvette, not Little blue or green, doesn't even sound right) Then maybe white & black comes next technical are not colors.

Next, consider some things IH did over the years. When new products came out they let everyone know. For example, Super MTA, 1206 Turbo, 656 Hydro. On the side of each of these new models up front were bold big letters telling the world about this product. In contrast, some JD tractors had the model hide back where you get on the tractor. (10 & 20 series) In addition, IH made gold demonstrators, black stripe models, the contrasting white on the new 1206, & the granddaddy of it all -- the 68 series w/ their dual chrome stacks & chrome shields. How could you not miss that. Better yet, today these models are sought after by collectors. Everyone else had turbos, hydros, V8's, but IH was market savvy in capitalizing on letting everyone know about their product.

Furthermore, my experience w/ red fans is they want tractor & equipment that's simple, easy to work on. The tractors up to the 1980's were that. Many of you guys do you own major engine work, TA replacement, trans & rearend repairs. Or you have friends that do it. Recently I ran across a thread from a guy asking if he should stick several $1000's in a 706 for repairs. Overwhelming it was fix vs trade. I can't imagine anyone doing that to a nearly 40 year old tractor unless it was worth it. I grew up in the 60's & 70's and we had a few of ever manufacturer in the neighborhood. Today the red are about all that are left esp from the 1950's. Even JD from that era are not used much. I'm not saying they or others aren't being collected by enthusiasts, but what a testament to reliability when 60 year old tractors are still being used. Probably the biggest reason many aren't used more is they are not big enough (esp the trend here away from dairy to cash crops) and lack of options( LPTO, no 3 pt, ps, cabs, etc). Moreover, when you work on your own equipment, there becomes an attachment that isn't easily broken.

Here's my take on part of the downfall of IH. Farming in the 60's & 70's was changing rapidly. Few farms, farmers, bigger tractors, equipment, etc. The number of dealers, and pieces of equipment was getting less. Add in the fact many parts of the country were practicing reduced & no tillage, Haylage replaced baling, Combining grain corn replaced picking. (The farmer renting my land does one past tillage in the spring- & does a better job then we did 40 years ago w/ multiple passes.) Everything is done faster w/ less labor. So tractors & equipment probably lasts longer. All the major tractor manufacturers were in trouble except JD. A tribute to them and the quality of their product. Will IH ever be back on top? I doubt it. It seems there are more short line manufacturers then ever- building quality tillage, planting or harvesting equipment. The competition is too great.

So why is IH so popular? Maybe part of it is unjustified, but they built a lot of quality equipment that made farming easier. However, much of it has to do with the many comments found in this forum. I've found that no matter what you like in cars trucks, snow plows or tractors, some people will love a brand the next guy will curse. Much of it is perception. What a great forum. Thanks for letting me speak.

[FARMALL460/H]

Does anybody know if I.H. Made a cab for a farmall 460?

[oldtech]

I dont believe so. Ive seen after market stuff on units from that age but nothing factory.

That was when men were made of sterner stuff!

[Owen Aaland]

If you look in the parts books the first cabs show up for the 706/806 tractors.

[FARMALL460/H]

Do you guys think that cabs for bigger farmall's would be compatible with the 460 like the 806 cab or or 84-86 series cab?

[farmall666]

bull dog you mite be right, i now when they started the new ag group the new ceo was a man named green and they only gave him so mutch capitol to make it go.i think brooks mccormick had 3 children and 2 of them died before he did, he has a son named marck i think and he must have a bunch of money i think he is on the board of directors of northwestern university, and has a lot to do with the art institute in chicago.brooks st james farm was sold in 2005 or around that time for 43 million,this year his apartment in chicago sold for 4.5 millionj. i think brooks father was chunsey mccormick and his father was robert mccormick.

I JUST POSTED ON THE FAMILY ABOUT A MONTH AGO. I DID A SEARCH ONLINE ABOUT THE FAMILY. I DONT REMEMBER IT ALL RIGHT NOW. WHAT DID BARABA HAVE TIES WITH IH OR NOT?