Reasonable Land Rent Vs. Crop Budgeting

[766 Man]

14 minutes ago, cjf711 said:

I wouldnt have the balls to approach a landlord about a rent reduction this close to planting a crop,  All these variables were known months ago and winter was the time this should have been discussed,  OR last summer or fall late so there was ample time for you to decide and or remarket the land if needed.   

At 145 an acre you are already giving him the land really,   At least as far as land goes around here.   If its not working at that rate then the solution is probably not reducing rent. There isnt a rule that says every acre of farmable land needs or should be farmed,  especially in this marketing environment right now.

If he walks away you can always market it with a reduced year 1 rate to attract more short notice renters that may be better long term options.   But yeh,  The time frame of this I would find really annoying if I were you.

 

 

 

 

  Like I said up page most likely a third party such as a bank gummed things up.  Seems like this would have happened in March but maybe the tenant had hoped for a solution and it failed to materialize.  Things can change between last fall and now especially when the creditor calls the shots.  I've dealt with the fallout when a bank changes ownership which can happen at any time during the year.  Everybody is looking to pull out ground from the other guy so if viable replacements were waiting in the wings the OP would be calling them instead of seeking advice on an old equipment forum.

[oldtech]

1 hour ago, TroyDairy said:

Exactly.  Whats the entire story.

Im calling it into question because the input cost he showed me seems a little outrageous, doesnt it?

He does not have much wiggle room.  He wants me to lower the rent by 1/3 but does not want to consider changing his practices.  He has his own equipment but does not use it because he simply doesnt have the time with a day job and his hog operation.  I had not idea he was going to bring in all these 3rd parties.  The standard way that small farmers have maintained a cost buffer is to provide their own labor and hold fixed costs down.  He does not have that.  See my previous post about row width and fertilizer.

In total he runs a couple hundred acres I dont know the full extent but in my neighborhood its mostly this type of marginal low land.  I think the best field he has is my north field which is high and well drained.   Yet he barely broke even on that.  I should have asked if he was asking his other landowners for the same thing.  I may do that yet.

The guy who sold me this place stopped in for a Sunday visit yesterday.  He recently sold the last of his land.  I asked him what he was getting for it before he sold it.  It was $175 which is still less than County average.  Its on a par with my better field.  If I charged the tenant that price he would be under water with that field too.

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

8 minutes ago, oldtech said:

How do you feel about wide row vs. drilled beans?

What are you calling wide rows, 30”? I would say at least half the beans here are in 30” rows and almost all the other are in 15”. Soybean special drills are popular here, but they are 15”. There is basically no 7.5” soybeans drilled here. My personal opinion is that a 30” planter is the best choice to plant beans with. There is very little tillage here and a bean crop will need plenty of weed control no matter how wide the rows are. We personally use 0 liquid fertilizer. I have tried foliar feeding corn and beans many times with the sprayer and I don’t think it has ever done anything other than increasing the input bill. 

[766 Man]

12 minutes ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

What are you calling wide rows, 30”? I would say at least half the beans here are in 30” rows and almost all the other are in 15”. Soybean special drills are popular here, but they are 15”. There is basically no 7.5” soybeans drilled here. My personal opinion is that a 30” planter is the best choice to plant beans with. There is very little tillage here and a bean crop will need plenty of weed control no matter how wide the rows are. We personally use 0 liquid fertilizer. I have tried foliar feeding corn and beans many times with the sprayer and I don’t think it has ever done anything other than increasing the input bill. 

  7.5 inch spacing is fading as white mold has become a major problem.  I plant 30 inches to minimize the impact of crusting soil when seed is emerging.  Would like to do 20-22 inches to have an earlier canopy date but another machine to purchase with minimal acres for a payback.  Whether organic or chemical weeds will be a problem in row crops and require control by implement or spray.  Soybeans require fertility meaning whatever has been applied prior to the planting season such as potash during the prior fall.  Spring fertilizers seem to have very minimal impact and as you have noted foliar feeding has very little benefit.  

[oldtech]

2 minutes ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

What are you calling wide rows, 30”? I would say at least half the beans here are in 30” rows and almost all the other are in 15”. Soybean special drills are popular here, but they are 15”. There is basically no 7.5” soybeans drilled here. My personal opinion is that a 30” planter is the best choice to plant beans with. There is very little tillage here and a bean crop will need plenty of weed control no matter how wide the rows are. We personally use 0 liquid fertilizer. I have tried foliar feeding corn and beans many times with the sprayer and I don’t think it has ever done anything other than increasing the input bill. 

Dont know the exact width.  Its probably 30.  see the pic.

It sounds like you are going no-til?   That just doesnt work in this ground.  Its like trying to plant into concrete and it cold and wet so you get seed rot. They use a shovel type plow in the fall.  Spring plowing does not work.  All you get a bricks unless its bone dry. The only advantage  (if you could call it that) here is that the tillage is old school weed control but I would not call two passes with a harrow and following post plant with  a cultipacker a low cost option.  You need to roll it to crush all thel clay lumps.  

Your comment about foliar feeding is interesting and kind of what I suspected but then Im a little biased.  I dont see liquid as a great way to deliver P or K.  Its mostly an N medium right?  Beans dont need that.

[oldtech]

6 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  7.5 inch spacing is fading as white mold has become a major problem.  I plant 30 inches to minimize the impact of crusting soil when seed is emerging.  Would like to do 20-22 inches to have an earlier canopy date but another machine to purchase with minimal acres for a payback.  Whether organic or chemical weeds will be a problem in row crops and require control by implement or spray.  Soybeans require fertility meaning whatever has been applied prior to the planting season such as potash during the prior fall.  Spring fertilizers seem to have very minimal impact and as you have noted foliar feeding has very little benefit.  

He does not apply anything in fall at all.  No granular fertilizer at all that Ive seen.  It wasnt on his budget plan.  P on that field is terrible at 20 but thats common for wet clay as the calcium leaches it all way.  The only way to provide it is shallow spring application pre plant so there is at least some there that has not been leached out.  You simply cant bring the P up to snuff. on this kind of ground no matter how much you throw at it.  Manure is maybe the best option but he does not have any and would have to buy it from a dairy.

[Alan Dinan]

Dad used to foliar feed beans when spraying Cobra for weed control. It was a special mix that his fertilizer rep made per his soil samples. The beans got a darker green instead of turning brown from the Cobra. Or maybe it was Canopy instead of Cobra. Been too many years ago. 
Your original issue sounds like he has a lender issue. I don’t think I would cut my rent because he spends too much on inputs. If he owned the ground and was making payments on it, he wouldn’t be able to cut his payments to the lender.

[766 Man]

27 minutes ago, oldtech said:

He does not apply anything in fall at all.  No granular fertilizer at all that Ive seen.  It wasnt on his budget plan.  P on that field is terrible at 20 but thats common for wet clay as the calcium leaches it all way.  The only way to provide it is shallow spring application pre plant so there is at least some there that has not been leached out.  You simply cant bring the P up to snuff. on this kind of ground no matter how much you throw at it.  Manure is maybe the best option but he does not have any and would have to buy it from a dairy.

  Somebody either you or he needs to get with the local fertilizer supplier to see what can be done about P.  Used to be application of P was not recommended during the fall around here due to leaching but there are stabilizers available now but an expert should be consulted to see if that is a viable solution for your farm.  

[oldtech]

21 minutes ago, Alan Dinan said:

Dad used to foliar feed beans when spraying Cobra for weed control. It was a special mix that his fertilizer rep made per his soil samples. The beans got a darker green instead of turning brown from the Cobra. Or maybe it was Canopy instead of Cobra. Been too many years ago. 
Your original issue sounds like he has a lender issue. I don’t think I would cut my rent because he spends too much on inputs. If he owned the ground and was making payments on it, he wouldn’t be able to cut his payments to the lender.

Thats a good point on the rent.  But one of the advantages of renting especially when your lease is up is that you can walk away.  He seems to be saying thats what he would do.  But he also waited until the last minute to tell me this which is what has sent me scrambling.  Im between a rock and a hard place now with signup continuous CRP for next year already ended.  General is still open but its not the same and also competitive bid so it isnt sure Id get in.

Cant say that id blame him given then numbers he showed me but he ha all winter to discuss this with me.  Not happy with that.  My options are pretty limited as I dont even have an operational drill today and most all the others here have their crop plans in already.

I should also mention that he wants multiple installment payments too beyond the downpayment final payment.  Tells me he is having cash flow problems.

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

35 minutes ago, oldtech said:

It sounds like you are going no-til?

We haven’t worked any ground in over 30 years. It’s hard for me to believe it doesn’t work everywhere, but I have no experience in other region’s climate. Working wet bottom ground is the worst thing you can do here. You’ll end up with a mess. 

[oldtech]

20 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  Somebody either you or him needs to get with the local fertilizer supplier to see what can be done about P.  Used to be application of P was not recommended during the fall around here due to leeching but there are stabilizers available now but an expert should be consulted to see if that is a viable solution for your farm.  

Agreed. thats what Im saying.  Spring pre-plant for that very reason.  Im not going to stick my nose in his business with the coop.  I doubt I grow beans myself.  I think from info here Im a little out of touch with all that.  If I DIY it oats might be the best option.  I may talk to one of the local mills.

Worst case is I offer a one year contract at his price and hope for a CRP contract for 27.  Maybe I should put the whole place in it.  then I dont have to deal with this.

[Alan Dinan]

4 minutes ago, oldtech said:

Thats a good point on the rent.  But one of the advantages of renting especially when your lease is up is that you can walk away.  He seems to be saying thats what he would do.  But he also waited until the last minute to tell me this which is what has sent me scrambling.  Im between a rock and a hard place now with signup continuous CRP for next year already ended.  General is still open but its not the same and also competitive bid so it isnt sure Id get in.

Cant say that id blame him given then numbers he showed me but he ha all winter to discuss this with me.  Not happy with that.  My options are pretty limited as I dont even have an operational drill today and most all the others here have their crop plans in already.

I wouldn’t think that 40-50 acres would throw a monkey wrench in most farmers plans. If you tell him that you will not lower his rent, then he walks away, he broke the lease and can’t do anything toward you, and you are clear to call several neighbors who may be willing to rent it for the year 

[oldtech]

1 minute ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

We haven’t worked any ground in over 30 years. It’s hard for me to believe it doesn’t work everywhere, but I have no experience in other region’s climate. Working wet bottom ground is the worst thing you can do here. You’ll end up with a mess. 

Its the same thing here in that respect.  Thats why you have to fall plow, to get it dried out and warmed up.

[oldtech]

1 minute ago, Alan Dinan said:

I wouldn’t think that 40-50 acres would throw a monkey wrench in most farmers plans. If you tell him that you will not lower his rent, then he walks away, he broke the lease and can’t do anything toward you, and you are clear to call several neighbors who may be willing to rent it for the year 

Yeah but its a lost minute hassle I didnt expect to deal with.

He did not break the lease.  It had expired but still...  I should have pressed him earlier.  I had told  him verbally last fall that Id let the old lease ride but it was never agreed to in writing.

[Alan Dinan]

That’s probably why he waited so long to come to you.

[766 Man]

21 minutes ago, oldtech said:

Agreed. thats what Im saying.  Spring pre-plant for that very reason.  Im not going to stick my nose in his business with the coop.  I doubt I grow beans myself.  I think from info here Im a little out of touch with all that.  If I DIY it oats might be the best option.  I may talk to one of the local mills.

Worst case is I offer a one year contract at his price and hope for a CRP contract for 27.  Maybe I should put the whole place in it.  then I dont have to deal with this.

  I'd still investigate the fertility issue with an expert.  Spring applied P is quite questionable in terms of any benefit for soybeans  A solution for you might mean a better crop for whoever works whatever field on your farm leading to more profit for the tenant and higher rent collected for you.  Not insisting on having a signed agreement in place at the beginning of 2026 explains a lot.  I still think that you are working with him because nobody else has stepped up and on halfway decent ground there is normally more than one prospective tenant.  

[oldtech]

2 hours ago, 766 Man said:

  I'd still investigate the fertility issue with an expert.  Spring applied P is quite questionable in terms of any benefit for soybeans  A solution for you might mean a better crop for whoever works whatever field on your farm leading to more profit for the tenant and higher rent collected for you.  Not insisting on having a signed agreement in place at the beginning of 2026 explains a lot.  I still think that you are working with him because nobody else has stepped up and on halfway decent ground there is normally more than one prospective tenant.  

Given that we have decided to apply for 27 now it would be kind of a waste of time.  North field does not have that issue.  Best cure for this field is to just stop cropping it.  We dont need more product produced at a lost that we cant even sell.  In some small way Im helping everyone else out a microscopic bit.

It really is a good case study for this.  Im sure that everyone that has one of these fields around here has a good feel for what the issue is.

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

We have farmed over the years quite a few acres that we knew would not be farmland much longer. We never applied any p&k at all to those acres. Sometimes you fam them one year, sometimes plans get delayed and it might be 10 years, but we never knew before hand. I never did a single soil test on any of those acres because it wouldn’t have mattered anyway. I saw land in continuous beans for 10 years with 0 fertility work of any kind and I can’t say it made much difference in yield. The beans made around 50 when we started and were still making around 50 when the scrapers came in to level it. 

[766 Man]

1 hour ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

We have farmed over the years quite a few acres that we knew would not be farmland much longer. We never applied any p&k at all to those acres. Sometimes you fam them one year, sometimes plans get delayed and it might be 10 years, but we never knew before hand. I never did a single soil test on any of those acres because it wouldn’t have mattered anyway. I saw land in continuous beans for 10 years with 0 fertility work of any kind and I can’t say it made much difference in yield. The beans made around 50 when we started and were still making around 50 when the scrapers came in to level it. 

  Around here heavier ground has higher nutrient holding capability meaning a crop can work off of stored nutrients longer than a lighter soil.  But those nutrients need to be present to start with.  Fields that have been long term pasture or hay tend to contribute more nutrients when going to row crops than those already in a long term row crop plan.  I see this nearby to me with famers who rent a place where the previous operator never did much with their farm.  30, 40, 50 or more years into continuous hay then the previous operator gets too old or dies then a new farmer comes in.  Often the new guy pats himself on the back for the fantastic yields and brags how he puts down no more fertilizer than normal.  There is no such thing as magic or genius when it comes to managing fertility.  Nutrients need to be accounted for including micro-nutrients.  They are waiting in the soil or they are not.  Some crops such as corn are more capable of going down into the subsoil to obtain nutrients depending on things such as subsoil density and pH for example.  I get that long term work does not matter when the ground is going for new housing, retail or industrial use, or in the OP's case conservation.  But the rest of us with ground we know will get farmed need to worry about things such as fertility, soil compaction, and drainage for example.

[oldtech]

1 hour ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

We have farmed over the years quite a few acres that we knew would not be farmland much longer. We never applied any p&k at all to those acres. Sometimes you fam them one year, sometimes plans get delayed and it might be 10 years, but we never knew before hand. I never did a single soil test on any of those acres because it wouldn’t have mattered anyway. I saw land in continuous beans for 10 years with 0 fertility work of any kind and I can’t say it made much difference in yield. The beans made around 50 when we started and were still making around 50 when the scrapers came in to level it. 

Agreed.

He was full of talk about how he was going to build up the fertility here.  I wonder if that isnt part of his high costs.  The guy who had it in hay for for all those years never put anything on it and what he had in corn just got starter in the row.

7 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  Around here heavier ground has higher nutrient holding capability meaning a crop can work off of stored nutrients longer than a lighter soil.  But those nutrients need to be present to start with.  Fields that have been long term pasture or hay tend to contribute more nutrients when going to row crops than those already in a long term row crop plan.  I see this nearby to me with famers who rent a place where the previous operator never did much with their farm.  30, 40, 50 or more years into continuous hay then the previous operator gets too old or dies then a new farmer comes in.  Often the new guy pats himself on the back for the fantastic yields and brags how he puts down no more fertilizer than normal.  There is no such thing as magic or genius when it comes to managing fertility.  Nutrients need to be accounted for including micro-nutrients.  They are waiting in the soil or they are not.  Some crops such as corn are more capable of going down into the subsoil to obtain nutrients depending on things such as subsoil density and pH for example.  I get that long term work does not matter when the ground is going for new housing, retail or industrial use, or in the OP's case conservation.  But the rest of us with ground we know will get farmed need to worry about things such as fertility, soil compaction, and drainage for example.

Oh yes!  Here is the perfect example!  This is the same field 1st year after the hay.  It was 14' high in places!  I think the nutrients are not in the mineral part of the soil but in the organic matter of the root systems which is easily released back into the new crop.  But they dont last long.  Soil testing often does not reflect the differences.  This was a one year tenant I had in between the current one and the hay guy.  This was also a very dry year so there was no flooding to stunt the plants.

[oldtech]

I should add that corn silage will suck the nutrients out much faster as there is nothing left to put back into the soil such as the stalks.  Organic matter counts!

[766 Man]

1 minute ago, oldtech said:

I should add that corn silage will suck the nutrients out much faster as there is nothing left to put back into the soil such as the stalks.  Organic matter counts!

  Organic matter is real important in terms of nutrient and moisture retention.  At least around here heavier soils will have a significantly higher level of organic matter with good soil management practices versus a lighter soil such as a sand.  

[oldtech]

9 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  Organic matter is real important in terms of nutrient and moisture retention.  At least around here heavier soils will have a significantly higher level of organic matter with good soil management practices versus a lighter soil such as a sand.  

I already noted that manure works pretty will in these fields for the same reason I think.  He doesnt have any.  But really I hate the way these custom manure crews operate.  I wish they werent handling liquid but what can you do?  Ive never refused manure if someone wanted to apply it. I just insist they follow the rules so close to the creek and river here.

The old idea of the green revolution just keeps coming home.  Rotate your crops and use manure!

Thats why Wisconsin stopped being a wheat state.

[Lars (midessa)]

You mention your current renter is raising hogs, what does he do with that manure? How much distance is this land from his hog operation?

[sd186man]

4 hours ago, oldtech said:

Soil testing often does not reflect the differences. 

If I understand soil testing that is correct, all organic matter is separated from soil for test

 

5 hours ago, oldtech said:

Best cure for this field is to just stop cropping it. 

No offense to anyone, but that’s what I’m getting from this discussion, CRP, hay, pasture, or abandon it, but I doubt Wisconsin property taxes would allow the latter