HELP 8010 feeder house will not turn off!!!!!

[MBman]

Hi,  today we were busy harvesting oats, and things were going amazingly. I shut the feeder off one time as I moved across the field a little ways and noticed it would not turn off. This was the sequence of events that followed. 

Shut the feeder off using the switch. The reel stopped, but the drapes, center auger, and feeder house kept going.

Shut the separator off; the feeder kept going.

Shut the engine off, the feeder stopped and jerked in relation to the engine back lash

Started engine 

The feeder was off, but the engine load read 45% at idle

Started separator, engine load decreased to 39% +/-

Started feeder
Engine load decreased even further to 23% +/-

Turned off the feeder and only the reel stopped.

The only way to stop the feeder after engagement was with the key switch/engine off.

After restarting the combine, I would go outside with everything off, and I could hear the engine lugging a bit, as tho there was extra load on it, and when the feeder came on the load always dropped to 23%. So definitely seems the feeder is pulling a load when it is off, but it only is off after initial engine start, as soon as you turn it on with the feeder switch you can't turn it off except with the key. 

I harvested a bit more yet like this then got a lump of mud in and it plugged up the feeder, It did seem to stop then and allowed me to reverse the header but as soon as I quit reversing and moved the feeder switch into the Neutral (middle) position, the feeder went straight back to forward. Then no amount of forward, neutral or reverse switch inputs did anything. 

I talked to a couple of local techs, and they both thought the clutch disc was probably warped in the feeder CVT drive. But they also both said they had never seen that before. And maybe I have another issue, like control pressure. I did have one code that I found using my EST the was 162.01 control pressure sensor.  

Checked all fuses all checked OK.

 

Any ideas out there?

[jass1660]

@SDman

[bwop2017]

Its been a while but there is a feeder clutch and a separator clutch. It's entirely possible that your feeder clutch is warped. We have a local 7120 that is. the feeder sit there and creeps when it run. I thought there was an external adjustment you could make on the feeder clutch brake to try and hold it but if its warped you're SOL. I would maybe check your feeder clutch solenoid for uncommanded power, or we've had a couple get debris in the solenoid and it sticks open and the feeder get stuck on. 

 

What's your regulated/control pressure?

[SDman]

First off, this is an 8010 with a variable-speed (CVT) feeder drive? The reason I ask is that there are 8010s out there without a feeder CVT....and I could see them in Canada. If all a customer wanted was a combine for a MacDon or grain header, you could get an 8010 with a CVT delete for the feeder. I have a dealer about an hour northwest of me that sold several that way...no variable-speed feeder.

If it has the CVT feeder drive, there are 2 clutches involved in the CVT...the RTF(ring-to-frame) clutch, and the ETR (engine-to-ring) clutch. Think of the ETR clutch as a PTO clutch...it connects that engine's power to the feeder drive line when engaged. The RTF clutch is primarily thought of as the PTO brake clutch, but it comes into play for other functions, too. When you reverse the feeder, the RTF clutch is engaged so that the CVT hydro can operate the CVT in reverse to clear the slug. Also, when you first engage the feeder, the RTF clutch is engaged so that the CVT hydro can get the feeder to start moving. When the feeder gets to proper speed, the RTF clutch is released and the ETR clutch is engaged, connecting the engine's power to the feeder drive.

I would advise starting with looking at the feeder clutch valve, item $4 in the first picture...it sits just under the CVT for the feeder. Make sure both solenoids work properly, and make sure the spool in the valve works freely and is clean.

What it sounds like to me when you start it up is as follows. The RTF clutch should be engaged at startup to act as a brake on the feeder. Once the CCM(Combine Control Module....one of 3 under the buddy seat) sees feeder RPM, it cuts power to the RTF solenoid....so the engine power consumed will be less.

[MBman]

11 hours ago, SDman said:

First off, this is an 8010 with a variable-speed (CVT) feeder drive? The reason I ask is that there are 8010s out there without a feeder CVT....and I could see them in Canada. If all a customer wanted was a combine for a MacDon or grain header, you could get an 8010 with a CVT delete for the feeder. I have a dealer about an hour northwest of me that sold several that way...no variable-speed feeder.

If it has the CVT feeder drive, there are 2 clutches involved in the CVT...the RTF(ring-to-frame) clutch, and the ETR (engine-to-ring) clutch. Think of the ETR clutch as a PTO clutch...it connects that engine's power to the feeder drive line when engaged. The RTF clutch is primarily thought of as the PTO brake clutch, but it comes into play for other functions, too. When you reverse the feeder, the RTF clutch is engaged so that the CVT hydro can operate the CVT in reverse to clear the slug. Also, when you first engage the feeder, the RTF clutch is engaged so that the CVT hydro can get the feeder to start moving. When the feeder gets to proper speed, the RTF clutch is released and the ETR clutch is engaged, connecting the engine's power to the feeder drive.

I would advise starting with looking at the feeder clutch valve, item $4 in the first picture...it sits just under the CVT for the feeder. Make sure both solenoids work properly, and make sure the spool in the valve works freely and is clean.

What it sounds like to me when you start it up is as follows. The RTF clutch should be engaged at startup to act as a brake on the feeder. Once the CCM(Combine Control Module....one of 3 under the buddy seat) sees feeder RPM, it cuts power to the RTF solenoid....so the engine power consumed will be less.

So how do I tell if it is variable. I do have the variable speed controls in the cab. I think it is.... Serial is HAJ202864

[SDman]

18 minutes ago, MBman said:

So how do I tell if it is variable. I do have the variable speed controls in the cab. I think it is.... Serial is HAJ202864

If you have the variable-speed controls in the cab, it should have the CVT feeder drive. The ones I have been around that have a fixed-speed feeder drive have a plastic plug where the potentiometer should be that changes the speed of the feeder in the RH console....should be located right next the auto/manual feeder speed selector rocker switch, which also should be covered with a plastic cover on a fixed-speed feeder drive machine, since you can't adjust the feeder speed anyway. Should be items # 5 and #6 in the picture.

 

 

[1967806]

We have an 8010. Not sure I understand that labeling. 1 and 2 toggle switches is all I can see that makes sense. The rest of the stuff ???? Number 7 puts in highway mode on ours but their are very few roads that you can stand to run it that fast around here.  

[MBman]

1 hour ago, SDman said:

If you have the variable-speed controls in the cab, it should have the CVT feeder drive. The ones I have been around that have a fixed-speed feeder drive have a plastic plug where the potentiometer should be that changes the speed of the feeder in the RH console....should be located right next the auto/manual feeder speed selector rocker switch, which also should be covered with a plastic cover on a fixed-speed feeder drive machine, since you can't adjust the feeder speed anyway. Should be items # 5 and #6 in the picture.

 

 

Yes that is exactly how mine is and I believe on my pickup head when i turned #5 the feeder slowed down too. I would say it is variable 100%

[MBman]

So, if I understand how this works, in essence, RTF and ETR should never be activated at the same time. But in my situation it could be that they are activated together at startup, and this would be because the ETR valve might be stuck open.  RTF is essentially holding the feeder stationary, and the ETR engages the clutch to turn the feeder house. But if the ETR fails it would constantly be trying to engage the feeder and the RTF is holding it stationary. So once you engage the feeder the RTF lets go and the ETR gets full pressure and one switchoff the RTF is not strong enough to overpower the ETR.......


Is that the right conclusion?

 A simple way to test if I understand this is to ensure the RTF has no oil on startup. You should also have the feeder engage with the engine start if the ETR is stuck open.  So in the attached pictures I should be able to disconnect the line with the orange zip tie and cap both ends and that would isolate the RTF. is that correct? The line with the orange zip tie corresponds to number 4. Right?

[SDman]

12 hours ago, 1967806 said:

We have an 8010. Not sure I understand that labeling. 1 and 2 toggle switches is all I can see that makes sense. The rest of the stuff ???? Number 7 puts in highway mode on ours but their are very few roads that you can stand to run it that fast around here.  

Dan, I apologize. I chopped off the top of that page that the other list of controls is referring to. You are correct on the layout of the controls.

10 hours ago, MBman said:

So, if I understand how this works, in essence, RTF and ETR should never be activated at the same time. But in my situation it could be that they are activated together at startup, and this would be because the ETR valve might be stuck open.  RTF is essentially holding the feeder stationary, and the ETR engages the clutch to turn the feeder house. But if the ETR fails it would constantly be trying to engage the feeder and the RTF is holding it stationary. So once you engage the feeder the RTF lets go and the ETR gets full pressure and one switchoff the RTF is not strong enough to overpower the ETR.......


Is that the right conclusion?

 A simple way to test if I understand this is to ensure the RTF has no oil on startup. You should also have the feeder engage with the engine start if the ETR is stuck open.  So in the attached pictures I should be able to disconnect the line with the orange zip tie and cap both ends and that would isolate the RTF. is that correct? The line with the orange zip tie corresponds to number 4. Right?

Correct on the first part. My concern is that there is something possibly wrong in that control valve that is causing both clutches to be engaged at the same time...which should never happen. Could be a solenoid valve sticking....something in the valve causing the spool to not shift properly, etc. Just want to double-check before you move on. Now, I will be honest with you....I'm guessing that both RTF and ETR clutches are damaged by now the way you are describing. They're both pretty good-sized clutches built to take a lot of power....if they are simultaneously engaged, nothing good will happen. I suppose the ETR clutch may have just slipped to begin it all...but I would have a tough time believing a pickup header would do that. The thing that usually causes feeder driveline issues the most are chopping corn heads; they take a LOT of power.

As far as the RTF clutch....it should be engaged whenever the feeder is not in regular running mode. It should come on pretty quick at engine startup to work with the feeder CVT hydro to keep the feeder from creeping/turning when it shouldn't be moving(see my fourth page for "feeder disengaged" under "control valve operations) . Its also used when reversing the feeder, as well as when the feeder is first engaged. It works with the feeder CVT hydro to get the feeder to start turning. Once the feeder gets to a certain speed in that mode, then the RTF clutch is disengaged while the ETR clutch is engaged, allowing engine power to run the feeder. One of the solenoids should be powered up at all times...depending on which mode the feeder is in determines which solenoid should be engaged at what time.

Like the other poster mentioned...what is control pressure during all of this? It should be a bare minimum of 295psi at low idle with everything engaged. The electronics should shut off the separator if it gets below 270psi IIRC. Should be 315-320 psi with everything shut off and with hot oil.

Another thing as far as that feeder control valve is concerned...the rotor drive CVT has the same valve, same solenoids, pretty much operates in the same manner. Both CVTs use a lot of parts commonality...although they are not the same thing.

[1967806]

10 hours ago, SDman said:

Dan, I apologize. I chopped off the top of that page that the other list of controls is referring to. You are correct on the layout of the controls.

Correct on the first part. My concern is that there is something possibly wrong in that control valve that is causing both clutches to be engaged at the same time...which should never happen. Could be a solenoid valve sticking....something in the valve causing the spool to not shift properly, etc. Just want to double-check before you move on. Now, I will be honest with you....I'm guessing that both RTF and ETR clutches are damaged by now the way you are describing. They're both pretty good-sized clutches built to take a lot of power....if they are simultaneously engaged, nothing good will happen. I suppose the ETR clutch may have just slipped to begin it all...but I would have a tough time believing a pickup header would do that. The thing that usually causes feeder driveline issues the most are chopping corn heads; they take a LOT of power.

As far as the RTF clutch....it should be engaged whenever the feeder is not in regular running mode. It should come on pretty quick at engine startup to work with the feeder CVT hydro to keep the feeder from creeping/turning when it shouldn't be moving(see my fourth page for "feeder disengaged" under "control valve operations) . Its also used when reversing the feeder, as well as when the feeder is first engaged. It works with the feeder CVT hydro to get the feeder to start turning. Once the feeder gets to a certain speed in that mode, then the RTF clutch is disengaged while the ETR clutch is engaged, allowing engine power to run the feeder. One of the solenoids should be powered up at all times...depending on which mode the feeder is in determines which solenoid should be engaged at what time.

Like the other poster mentioned...what is control pressure during all of this? It should be a bare minimum of 295psi at low idle with everything engaged. The electronics should shut off the separator if it gets below 270psi IIRC. Should be 315-320 psi with everything shut off and with hot oil.

Another thing as far as that feeder control valve is concerned...the rotor drive CVT has the same valve, same solenoids, pretty much operates in the same manner. Both CVTs use a lot of parts commonality...although they are not the same thing.

Got a warning on our 8010 one time going down the road in highway mode that said hydraulic oil was over heating. Went back to non highway mode and it quit alarming. Pulled up the screen to check temperature and it was cooling off after I went out of Highway mode. Not sure why it would run hotter in highway mode than regular mode.

[MBman]

22 hours ago, SDman said:

Dan, I apologize. I chopped off the top of that page that the other list of controls is referring to. You are correct on the layout of the controls.

Correct on the first part. My concern is that there is something possibly wrong in that control valve that is causing both clutches to be engaged at the same time...which should never happen. Could be a solenoid valve sticking....something in the valve causing the spool to not shift properly, etc. Just want to double-check before you move on. Now, I will be honest with you....I'm guessing that both RTF and ETR clutches are damaged by now the way you are describing. They're both pretty good-sized clutches built to take a lot of power....if they are simultaneously engaged, nothing good will happen. I suppose the ETR clutch may have just slipped to begin it all...but I would have a tough time believing a pickup header would do that. The thing that usually causes feeder driveline issues the most are chopping corn heads; they take a LOT of power.

As far as the RTF clutch....it should be engaged whenever the feeder is not in regular running mode. It should come on pretty quick at engine startup to work with the feeder CVT hydro to keep the feeder from creeping/turning when it shouldn't be moving(see my fourth page for "feeder disengaged" under "control valve operations) . Its also used when reversing the feeder, as well as when the feeder is first engaged. It works with the feeder CVT hydro to get the feeder to start turning. Once the feeder gets to a certain speed in that mode, then the RTF clutch is disengaged while the ETR clutch is engaged, allowing engine power to run the feeder. One of the solenoids should be powered up at all times...depending on which mode the feeder is in determines which solenoid should be engaged at what time.

Like the other poster mentioned...what is control pressure during all of this? It should be a bare minimum of 295psi at low idle with everything engaged. The electronics should shut off the separator if it gets below 270psi IIRC. Should be 315-320 psi with everything shut off and with hot oil.

Another thing as far as that feeder control valve is concerned...the rotor drive CVT has the same valve, same solenoids, pretty much operates in the same manner. Both CVTs use a lot of parts commonality...although they are not the same thing.

OK so I disconnected both solenoid, ETR and RTF and then I started the combine. The feeder engaged right away so definitely have the ETR solenoid stuck open. 

At cold idle, air temp was 8°C over night control pressure with just the feeder turning as it does was 314 psi. 

[SDman]

22 hours ago, 1967806 said:

Got a warning on our 8010 one time going down the road in highway mode that said hydraulic oil was over heating. Went back to non highway mode and it quit alarming. Pulled up the screen to check temperature and it was cooling off after I went out of Highway mode. Not sure why it would run hotter in highway mode than regular mode.

I know this has changed over the years depending on software, but on most Flagship combines road speed is limited to 13(?)mph if the road mode switch is not engaged. To go faster than 13mph, the switch needs to be engaged. Depending on tire size and other factors, you should be able to get somewhere between 18-22mph road speed on a Flagship with the road mode switch engaged.

I would imagine it was not the hydraulic temperature that was giving you an alarm, it was probably the parameter "Hydro Motor Temperature" that was giving you an alarm. On a Flagship, the hydraulic system and the PTO drive system are 2 separate systems. The hydraulic system is for steering, header lift, most header functions that need hydraulic oil like reel lift/lower and reel fore/aft and reel drive, unloader swing, and Field Tracker. The PTO system is for the ground drive hydro, both feeder and rotor drive CVTs, and unloader and separator drive clutches. On the PTO system, the hydro motor temperature is watched since that is usually the location of the hottest oil in that system. Did your road speed drop when you disengaged road speed? 

[1967806]

11 hours ago, SDman said:

Did your road speed drop when you disengaged road speed? 

Yep, it did. Not many roads around here smooth enough to use that highway mode. Ours has 1100 LSW's on the front and tends to get a little bouncy. 

[MBman]

So pretty sure I got it all working again. This spool had a burr on it and was stuck in the "ON" position. The spring could not return it. The clutches looked good so I could have done it very easily without pulling the pumpkin apart. 

[SDman]

Good to hear....glad you got it fixed. That's not the first time debris has been found on that spool....that's why I suggested looking over the control valve parts first. Hopefully the clutches in both RTF and ETR functions didn't receive any major damage. Again, I wouldn't think a pickup header would take a lot of load on the feeder CVT, but maybe it takes more than I realize. Hopefully everything will be OK.