Tier 4b Emission Controls on John Deere Tractors

[Big Bud guy]

Deere is also buying Cummins engines for the 9000 series 4WD tractors since early November. To my understanding the only tractors with Deere engines now are the 6000, 7000 and 8000 series tractors.

They started using Cummins when they updated the 9Rs in late 2014. Also, the only tractors with the Cummins is the 9620R and 9570R series. The rest use JD engines. And all the 5000s use JD engines too. What hasn't been mentioned is the 5000G series that use the Fiat engine aren't even sold in North America which is probably why the salesman from the other post didn't know about it.

Deere's build page list the Cummins QSX15 is used in 9570T 9570R 9570RX 9620RX 9620R only way to keep up with FPT 620 HP in Steiger

I believe I already said that. See were I bolded the text in my previous post? "What is funny is when the JD dropped the Cummins and went with their own 12.5 in the 9000 series, the red Steiger boys with their Cummins engines had a "field day" making fun of the little 12.5 and "no replacement for displacement" and on and on. Flash forward to now and Cummins engines are a "whatever" and that Iveco 12.9 is the king of the hill.

[George 2]

And strangely enough the 12.9 isn't king of the hill at FPT. They use the larger 15.9 in the CIH 9240 combine. I wonder why they don't use it in the 620 tractor instead of the smaller 12.9. Any ideas?

[Ian Beale]

And strangely enough the 12.9 isn't king of the hill at FPT. They use the larger 15.9 in the CIH 9240 combine. I wonder why they don't use it in the 620 tractor instead of the smaller 12.9. Any ideas?

Saving it for the next shot in the horsepower race?

[ST-470]

d**r* has always lagged in the HP race behind Steiger!! Rumor is, the "new" Steiger coming is 700+HP.

[DR.EVIL]

The old model articulated dump truck JD built at Davenport Works had a Mercedes V-8 diesel. When the new Tier 4 compliant model came out about 2 years ago they went back to a home built engine, 12.5L IIRC.

Must have hurt to have to import engines from Germany! Something else that will hurt is buying parts for that engine from your local Deere dealer in the future.

Wonder if Kinze will make a kit to swap an 855 Cummins in them in the next few years?

[jass1660]

The old model articulated dump truck JD built at Davenport Works had a Mercedes V-8 diesel. When the new Tier 4 compliant model came out about 2 years ago they went back to a home built engine, 12.5L IIRC.

Must have hurt to have to import engines from Germany! Something else that will hurt is buying parts for that engine from your local Deere dealer in the future.

Wonder if Kinze will make a kit to swap an 855 Cummins in them in the next few years?

Only problem is that engine and emissions has to be at the level that the model of year of vehicle is. Unfortunately I think glider trucks will be next on their hit list.

[SDman]

And strangely enough the 12.9 isn't king of the hill at FPT. They use the larger 15.9 in the CIH 9240 combine. I wonder why they don't use it in the 620 tractor instead of the smaller 12.9. Any ideas?

George, the current transmission offering is pretty much "maxxed out" with the 12.9L. The 16L is coming to the Steigers, though.

As far as the "FPT vs. Deere" argument of emissions, I think it is more of a "European thinking" vs. "North American thinking" issue when it comes to emissions strategy. Europe embraced DEF from the get-go; they've been using DEF for more than 10 years over there. In defense of Deere(wow, never thought I would ever say that!!!), most North American engine manufacturers tried to stay away from DEF as long as they could. Their answer tended to be "use more fuel". Going all the way back to Tier I emissions, NA engine manufacturers changed engine timing for emissions reasons. In order to maintain the same HP, they used more fuel. With advance of emissions, DPFs came along. How do they clean them? With unburned diesel fuel. I'm guessing some of the thinking here has to do with the cost of diesel fuel in Europe vs. North America. Europe's diesel costs are usually twice what it is in the US at any given time. If you remember here in North America back in 2007-2008, "DEF" was a dirty word. Now, it is pretty much accepted over here.

When CNHi/FPT brought the "DEF-only" engines over here to NA, they learned a few things. First off, our climate is different than it is in Europe, causing some problems with extreme cold weather operation in the northern half of North America. While its generally known that DEF freezes at 12 degrees Fahrenheit, the software people at FPT were a little slow at understanding how that all affected overall engine operation. It took them awhile to get the "software puzzle" solved on Tier IVa machines. This is in conjunction with Bosch from Germany since it is their equipment used for the DEF system on Tier IVa. Another thing that FPT learned about us in NA is that we tend to let our machines idle much more % than the Europeans do(perhaps due to the colder climate?). This also caused problems in both engine operation and DEF operation. If you look at CNHi/FPT engines for Tier IVb/final, you will see that one of the things they have installed is an exhaust flap.This more or less "chokes" the engine by allowing it not to breath under light loads, cuasing the engine to work harder, thus creating more heat. This allows for better overall engine/DEF operation.

One reason why CNHi/FPT's DEF percentage is higher on Tier IVb/final is because fuel consumption decreased due to higher injection pressures. There are a lot of factors for DEF consumption vs. fuel consumption. Overall engine load, engine RPMs, even ambient humidity % is a factor(all of CNHi/FPT's Tier IV engines have a humidity sensor in the engine intake system). Generally speaking, most of CNH's customers report DEF consumption as less than what they figured it would be. CNH's advertising factored in a "worst-case scenario" in regards to DEF consumption vs. fuel consumption. Remember, one gallon of DEF saves 2 gallons of fuel.

Some other factors to consider on Deere's system:

1) Increased oil dilution due to all the exhaust recirculation(20-30% of the intake air is exhaust that just came out the other side of the engine). Most North American engine manufacturers quietly increased the size of the oil sump due to this when EGR cooling started to be commonplace on diesels. This was done to deal with the extra dilution of the oil because of EGR.

2)Increased cooling system requirements. Nobody has ever figured out an "efficient" way to cool exhaust yet. This means more overall cooling system equipment-bigger coolers, more overall maintenance.

3)DPF filters. Deere customers are starting to see the same problem that everybody else with DPFs see-sooner or later the DPF assy. will have to be removed for cleaning. The regeneration cycle does not fully clean the DPF. Eventually it plugs up with ash, causing reduced engine performance.

4) Extra heat during regeneration. In some applications(combines are a prime example) the high EGTs create a very volatile, combustible environment. Some operators around here will not run their machines in sunflowers due to this.

[dale560]

You think after almost 40 years engineers would realize egr doesn't work well on a Diesel engine . Starting with gms 5.7 to fords 6.4 and everything in between with an egr valve or cooler. It has always been troublesome and causes a lot of engine damage when something fails.

[George 2]

SDman:

Thanks for a very enlightening discussion on the pros and cons of both systems. Much appreciated.

[Bermuda_Ken]

One more factor to note on the Brand X EGR system...............they require the use of LOW ASH Engine oil only or the DPF (trap) will plug up much faster!!!

The days of using Rotella, Schaefers, Cenpeco, Mobil, ect. or ??? oil brand because you have it on hand, your co-op or oil buddy sells it, are OVER unless the oil is are specifically formulated to be LOW ASH. Of course if you trade the machine off before this happens.....good for you!!!

[806 man]

SD Man,

I would like to get your thoughts on Cummins as to why the engine life is half of what it used to be. Back in the day with Cummins you could run 8-900k miles with no overhaul now I see countless 2003 and newer trucks for sell with 6-700k miles that say new engine or O/H with 100k miles on the engine. Do they have the problem solved on the newer ones?

I have 2001 Cat 3406 500 hp with close to 900k miles that uses 1/2 gallon oil in 10,000 miles I put rods and mains in it 5 years ago and replaced the wiring harness and that's it.