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Tier 4b Emission Controls on John Deere Tractors


George 2

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Does anyone know why Deere elected to go with a combination of Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) to meet Tier 4b emission standards instead of going with only SCR as FPT did? It would appear that having only SCR would be much simpler and less expensive than having both systems.

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First of all JD isn't the only one. Cummins uses both systems and I think most engines on over the road trucks use both systems. I think the jury is still out on which is more expensive over the long haul. Both end up making it more expensive anyway. I know we use way way way less Def then any of the guys around here with red equipment. Over at newagtalk there was a thread about engines/emissions and the consensus was these new engines are more reliable then the interim Tier 4 engines.

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After going through the FT4 classes for Deere, I can tell you that their given reason is "total fluid efficiency". As for the explanation you have to know the two main pollutants that are being regulated, PM-particulate matter, and NOX- nitrous oxides. PM is reduced by increasing combustion temperatures for a complete burn, this however creates a higher level of NOX. Deere used VGT and EGR technology to reduce PM levels during the Tier3 compliance by thermal management. When the IT4 mandates came along they basically just added a DPF-diesel particulate filter. In order to meet the final Tier4 requirements the SCR system was added on.

The fluid efficiency comes from the use of both technologies. A full SCR system will create a larger amount of NOX because it relies on the high combustion temperatures to reduce the PM, therefore requiring more DEF (8-12% of fuel consumption). Deere's alternative was to continue using thermal management to stay in the middle of the high PM vs high NOX range. In order to meet the final requirements the added the SCR system. In Deere's case, they only use DEF in the amount of 1-4% of fuel consumption. Overall less total fluid consumption, however more components and controls. So far they have been relatively trouble free.

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The fact that these emissions engines are even being used is the real issue. Doesnt matter what system is used all you have is a less efficient less reliable, more complicated diesel engine. Too bad you cant get glider kit tractors and stuff 3406's and c12's in em....the average farmer would be much happier.

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My 2 cents is when the patent expires on the FPT SCR design others will follow it is far to simple of a design to ignore.

Mostly I buy green when i see the engine on the Deere with all the added on BS for emissions it scares the h3ll out of me there is nothing to see that even resembles an engine under the hood plus a night mare to work on.

The CIH 450 steiger i got last spring with the FPT engine isn't cluttered with emission stuff it would be a dream to work on, If the rpm are kept at 17-1800 the DEF consumption isn't bad IMO.

The bonus to SCR is engine breaths cool, clean air only. With no EGR = more efficient = longer engine life. The cost of buying a little extra DEF more than out ways the cost of premature engine failures.

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My 2 cents is when the patent expires on the FPT SCR design others will follow it is far to simple of a design to ignore.

Mostly I buy green when i see the engine on the Deere with all the added on BS for emissions it scares the h3ll out of me there is nothing to see that even resembles an engine under the hood plus a night mare to work on.

The CIH 450 steiger i got last spring with the FPT engine isn't cluttered with emission stuff it would be a dream to work on, If the rpm are kept at 17-1800 the DEF consumption isn't bad IMO.

The bonus to SCR is engine breaths cool, clean air only. With no EGR = more efficient = longer engine life. The cost of buying a little extra DEF more than out ways the cost of premature engine failures.

AGCO went SCR the same time that FPT did, the systems are pretty similar.

I'm not sure, but there may be a restriction on patent rights on emissions controls for all engines right now. The EPA is running the show and I have doubts the patent office gets much of a say in the mix of legal proprietary rights and things that work. (exceptions for big financial kickbacks not mentioned)

For the Deere in question, they are claiming it is a fluid use directive. Under all the red tape and hoopla, I'd bet it's more or less they started to design an engine to meet one of the tier levels without using DEF, but then found they would have to.

So instead of starting from scratch, losing millions of $$$, they took what they had already come up with and added SCR to make the next level. It will be a big selling point in the next round that they cut fuel consumption at the price of extra DEF use and they didn't have to completely scrap a whole development program to get there.

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D**r* is using FPT engines now. I can hardly believe it, I woulda thought they'd covered it up better...... 5G Series Tractors - Key Specifications

Tractor Model

Engine

hp

Versions

Engine

Transmission

PTO

Max. lift capacity

(kg)

New 5G

80, 90

Cab

OOS

2WD

4WD

3.4-litre

FPT

CR

Stage III B

24/12 40km/h

24/24 40km/h mech. Hi-Lo

24/24 40km/h EH Hi-Lo

12/12 30km/h

Creeper option

540/540E

540/1000

Ground Drive PTO

2700

3200 opt.

New 5GH

90

Cab

OOS

2WD

4WD

3.4-litre

FPT

CR

Stage III B

24/24 30km/h

12/12 30km/h

Creeper option

540/540E

540/1000

Ground Drive PTO

2700

3200 opt.

5GF

80, 90, 100

Cab

OOS

2WD

4WD

4.5-litre

John Deere

Stage III A

12/12 Sync Reverser

24/24 Sync Reverser mech. Hi-Lo

24/24 40km/h EH Hi-Lo

24/12 Power Reverser w. Hi-Lo

540/540E

540/1000

2400

5GV

80, 90, 100

Cab

OOS

2WD

4WD

4.5-litre

John Deere

Stage III A

12/12 Sync Reverser

24/24 Sync Reverser mech. Hi-Lo

24/24 40km/h EH Hi-Lo

24/12 Power Reverser w. Hi-Lo

540/540E

540/1000

2400

New 5GL

75, 85

OOS

4WD

3.2-litre

FPT

CR

Stage III A

24/24 mech. Hi-Lo

Creeper option

540/540E

540/1000

Ground Drive PTO

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My 2 cents is when the patent expires on the FPT SCR design others will follow it is far to simple of a design to ignore.

Mostly I buy green when i see the engine on the Deere with all the added on BS for emissions it scares the h3ll out of me there is nothing to see that even resembles an engine under the hood plus a night mare to work on.

The CIH 450 steiger i got last spring with the FPT engine isn't cluttered with emission stuff it would be a dream to work on, If the rpm are kept at 17-1800 the DEF consumption isn't bad IMO.

The bonus to SCR is engine breaths cool, clean air only. With no EGR = more efficient = longer engine life. The cost of buying a little extra DEF more than out ways the cost of premature engine failures.

AGCO went SCR the same time that FPT did, the systems are pretty similar.

I'm not sure, but there may be a restriction on patent rights on emissions controls for all engines right now. The EPA is running the show and I have doubts the patent office gets much of a say in the mix of legal proprietary rights and things that work. (exceptions for big financial kickbacks not mentioned)

For the Deere in question, they are claiming it is a fluid use directive. Under all the red tape and hoopla, I'd bet it's more or less they started to design an engine to meet one of the tier levels without using DEF, but then found they would have to.

So instead of starting from scratch, losing millions of $$$, they took what they had already come up with and added SCR to make the next level. It will be a big selling point in the next round that they cut fuel consumption at the price of extra DEF use and they didn't have to completely scrap a whole development program to get there.

When JD introduced their interim Tier 4 engines we had a territory rep tell a group of us at a tractor clinic that JD was going to eventually incorporate DEF into their engines.

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...D**r* had no choice, DEF was/is the ONLY way to make tier 4 final emissions.

Correct. The stupid thing is at the beginning of the wack-job emissions onset it was pretty common knowledge of def being the only way for reaching 4 final . Reason it was not pushed in the first place was " we don't have the infrastructure to distribute the def...... Fast forward to now and we have it.

Just another example of the government stupidity on full display

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D**r* is using FPT engines now. I can hardly believe it, I woulda thought they'd covered it up better......

5G Series Tractors - Key Specifications

Tractor Model

Engine

hp

Versions

Engine

Transmission

PTO

Max. lift capacity

(kg)

New 5G

80, 90

Cab

OOS

2WD

4WD

3.4-litre

FPT

CR

Stage III B

24/12 40km/h

24/24 40km/h mech. Hi-Lo

24/24 40km/h EH Hi-Lo

12/12 30km/h

Creeper option

540/540E

540/1000

Ground Drive PTO

2700

3200 opt.

New 5GH

90

Cab

OOS

2WD

4WD

3.4-litre

FPT

CR

Stage III B

24/24 30km/h

12/12 30km/h

Creeper option

540/540E

540/1000

Ground Drive PTO

2700

3200 opt.

5GF

80, 90, 100

Cab

OOS

2WD

4WD

4.5-litre

John Deere

Stage III A

12/12 Sync Reverser

24/24 Sync Reverser mech. Hi-Lo

24/24 40km/h EH Hi-Lo

24/12 Power Reverser w. Hi-Lo

540/540E

540/1000

2400

5GV

80, 90, 100

Cab

OOS

2WD

4WD

4.5-litre

John Deere

Stage III A

12/12 Sync Reverser

24/24 Sync Reverser mech. Hi-Lo

24/24 40km/h EH Hi-Lo

24/12 Power Reverser w. Hi-Lo

540/540E

540/1000

2400

New 5GL

75, 85

OOS

4WD

3.2-litre

FPT

CR

Stage III A

24/24 mech. Hi-Lo

Creeper option

540/540E

540/1000

Ground Drive PTO

ST-470, Late last summer a Deere territory rep stopped by the farm as we discussed some on going warranty issues on a couple of rigs the talk turned to Deere and their emission design I brought up how simple the FPT system was on the steiger and by the way why is Deere buying FPT engines for deere tractors ? he said he knew nothing about that. Odd i would know more about it than he did, I think he prevaricated just a little is all :D I think there is a trade in the works, Deere buys FPT engines Deere gets FPT emission design.

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Deere is also buying Cummins engines for the 9000 series 4WD tractors since early November. To my understanding the only tractors with Deere engines now are the 6000, 7000 and 8000 series tractors.

They started using Cummins when they updated the 9Rs in late 2014. Also, the only tractors with the Cummins is the 9620R and 9570R series. The rest use JD engines. And all the 5000s use JD engines too. What hasn't been mentioned is the 5000G series that use the Fiat engine aren't even sold in North America which is probably why the salesman from the other post didn't know about it.

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Don't know anything about DEF. Talked to a neighbor a while back that said he was running their Deere S680 down the road and it just died in the middle of the road. He said the Def pump quit.

The DEF pump quitting should not cause the tractor to not run at all. At worst it would go into a derate that would allow it to run at reduced power and probably severely reduced rpms.

The EPA sets the parameters for the time frame of critical emissions faults that will put the engine in a full derate mode.

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Deere is also buying Cummins engines for the 9000 series 4WD tractors since early November. To my understanding the only tractors with Deere engines now are the 6000, 7000 and 8000 series tractors.

John Deere has been using Cummins engines in the largest of the 4WD tractors since the 60 series (8960 is the first that I remember)

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Deere is also buying Cummins engines for the 9000 series 4WD tractors since early November. To my understanding the only tractors with Deere engines now are the 6000, 7000 and 8000 series tractors.

John Deere has been using Cummins engines in the largest of the 4WD tractors since the 60 series (8960 is the first that I remember)

Except they didn't use Cummins engines in the 9000, 9020, 9030, and the 9Rs until last fall. My point is there has only been 4 tractors since 1989 that used a Cummins engine.

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8960s and 88/8970s used Cummins engines back in the late 80s through the mid-90s until the 9000 series came out in 94-95. Hasn't Deere pretty much always offered a Cummins engine in some of their SP forage harvester models? We've worked on several JD choppers that had a Cummins in them.

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Deere is also buying Cummins engines for the 9000 series 4WD tractors since early November. To my understanding the only tractors with Deere engines now are the 6000, 7000 and 8000 series tractors.

John Deere has been using Cummins engines in the largest of the 4WD tractors since the 60 series (8960 is the first that I remember)

Except they didn't use Cummins engines in the 9000, 9020, 9030, and the 9Rs until last fall. My point is there has only been 4 tractors since 1989 that used a Cummins engine.

This I did not know. Not even in the 95XX and 96XX 4WD's?

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Deere is also buying Cummins engines for the 9000 series 4WD tractors since early November. To my understanding the only tractors with Deere engines now are the 6000, 7000 and 8000 series tractors.

John Deere has been using Cummins engines in the largest of the 4WD tractors since the 60 series (8960 is the first that I remember)

Except they didn't use Cummins engines in the 9000, 9020, 9030, and the 9Rs until last fall. My point is there has only been 4 tractors since 1989 that used a Cummins engine.

This I did not know. Not even in the 95XX and 96XX 4WD's?

No.

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Just wait, d**r* will bring out a "new innovative design" all their own from years of testing & trials!!!

(that they stole or copied from someone else) :lol:

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Deere is also buying Cummins engines for the 9000 series 4WD tractors since early November. To my understanding the only tractors with Deere engines now are the 6000, 7000 and 8000 series tractors.

They started using Cummins when they updated the 9Rs in late 2014. Also, the only tractors with the Cummins is the 9620R and 9570R series. The rest use JD engines. And all the 5000s use JD engines too. What hasn't been mentioned is the 5000G series that use the Fiat engine aren't even sold in North America which is probably why the salesman from the other post didn't know about it.

Deere's build page list the Cummins QSX15 is used in 9570T 9570R 9570RX 9620RX 9620R only way to keep up with FPT 620 HP in Steiger

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