Farmall H Tranny Input Seal

[Stanton]

Looking to replace the Upper and Lower Transmission seals (#357967 R91 and #356503 R91 respectively) and the Belly Pump Input seal (#43509D) for the first time.

I found and read the website on how to drop the belly pump (found here: http://thefarmallh.com/Belly_Pump_Removal.html), so I'm good on the Lower Transmission and Belly seals.

Still have this question: Once the belly pump is down, how do you access the Upper Transmission Input shaft seal? It appears that the drive shaft may be unbolted, but once unbolted, does it slide or swing out of the way to access the seal retainer?

Thanks.

[MisterT]

The driveshaft has to come out. It will be a struggle to get the 4 bolts at that coupler to come loose, and they are tapered bolts. Pay special attention to how it all comes apart, because it has to go back together in the same, exact way. You will also need to loosen the bolts that hold the clutch pressure plate to the flywheel. This will allow you to wiggle the driveshaft enough to get it completely remove it. If you can get your hands on a parts catalog, it will show the individual parts, and you can more or less figure out what needs to be done to take it all apart.

[Scott!]

"Same exact way" meaning the cross has to go like that or 180 degrees. If you have it off 90 or 270 degrees you will have big problems.

Be prepared to do a little welding on those tapered bolts if you want it good and tight. You can buy new ones, but the four of them are over $125.

[Red Tech]

It's pretty easy to remove those tapered bolts if you remove the front 2 first, while everything is still solid. Take a shaft and hold it against the bosses where the tapered bolts go into the rear of the clutch shaft. Have the nuts off and hit the shaft with a hammer, HARD; they will pop loose. Do not remove either of the 2 front ones until they are both loose. Remove those bolts and then do the rear two. I lock the tractor in gear while I do the pounding so the universal joint stays somewhat ridged.

Next, put 3 bolts into the backplate to compress it to the clutch plate. I think that you use 3/8". Remove the bolts holding the pressure plate to the flywheel.

Remove the two bolts that hold the aluminium carrier to the clutch housing. You can then tilt the unit and withdraw the shaft. You may have to have the coupling on the transmission end horizontal and the clutch shaft horizontal to get clearance to slide the clutch shaft below the transmission end of the coupling.

You can now remove the clutch pressure plate and clutch disc if you so desire. Note: This works on an H, but the clutch is too big to remove out the bottom on a Super H.

The same is true for an M, but a Super M is also too big to get out the bottom.

Like Scott! said, weld up the bolts, but be sure to put in new rubbers. If the metal retainers are bad, replace them as well. I normally put in a new center joint ring, although I haven't priced one for a while.

On the lower transmission shaft, I normally put in two seals because there is room for two and because the pump drive coupling is normally quite worn.

[Ken Ryan]

Shouldn't the upper shaft front small bearing be replaced at this time? This bearing frequently fails on old tractors thereby causing the tractor to "work" out of high gear. Ken Ryan.

[fputnamjr]

Yes.

[Red Tech]

Shouldn't the upper shaft front small bearing be replaced at this time? This bearing frequently fails on old tractors thereby causing the tractor to "work" out of high gear. Ken Ryan.

X3

[Stanton]

This sounds more involved than the other site implied (http://thefarmallh.com/1950_H_Page_1.html).

Could it be that I only need to replace the two seals associated with the belly pump (the ones at each end of the drive dog coupling)?

I'm not sure I can do this...sounds like there's many other things to replace while up in there.

What do you mean "weld up the bolts"? Do you mean torque them down and spot weld them in place?

[Red Tech]

They will be worn where they go through the center part of the universal joint.

Actually, the proper repair is a fairly easy fix; maybe you are getting blown away with all the details. Just start the project and someone here will walk you through it.

An H is a very nice tractor and it will pay in the long run to fix it properly.

Good luck!

[MisterT]

You need only to replace the seals that are leaking. If the transmission input shaft oil seal is not currently leaking, you may be better off to just leave it alone. Doing everything that has been suggested up to this point is not technically complicated. In fact, all of it is pretty straight forward, but if you have limited experience with such mechanical things, the whole process can be a little daunting, not to mention the fact that you need to be somewhat of a contortionist at times.

Do the easy part now. You will gain some experience and a deeper understanding of how it all works, and then dig into the deeper stuff later on.

[Owen Aaland]

You should be able to remove the transmission input shaft without removing the drive shaft.

Remove the couple plate and bolts. Slide the drive shaft forward into the clutch. Remove the bolt that retains the flange on the transmission shaft. The flange will slide forward and go between the ears of the drive shaft. There should be just enough room to get it off the input shaft. With the flange off, the input and carrier assembly should tip down and out. You may have to hold up on the drive shaft.

[Stanton]

Still need an answer to what it means to "weld up the bolts"?

Could someone explain? Thanks.

[Red Tech]

When you remove the tapered bolts that hold the universal joint together, you will find that the bolts have a groove worn in them from the center plate of the universal joint. Weld up the groove and then smooth out the weld on a grindstone.

It's not too fussy, any improvement is better than what it was before you welded them up.

[MisterT]

When you remove the tapered bolts that hold the universal joint together, you will find that the bolts have a groove worn in them from the center plate of the universal joint. Weld up the groove and then smooth out the weld on a grindstone.

It's not too fussy, any improvement is better than what it was before you welded them up.

I've done both an H and an M. I did not find those bolts to be worn on either one of those tractors.

[DR.EVIL]

I did this same repair on my Stg II Super H 12-14 yrs ago. No belly pump to remove, just the flat cast plate with six 3/8" capscrews. The upper seal on the trans input shaft had been leaking for 30 yrs, so most of my time was spent cleaning up the inside of the torque tube or clutch housing. Hardest part was getting situated to work with your arms up in the housing. I seem to remember a creeper with a foot of shop blankets worked best. Hardest longest part of the project was getting the input yoke off the input shaft on the trans. I used a couple 3/8" capscrews with nuts threaded onto them to press the yoke off. The tapered bolts for the yoke and the rubber isolators were fine, just like new. Took 2-3 hours total. I replaced the top seal and seal/bearing housing gasket, and lower shaft seal and seal housing gasket.

The upper yoke had a bit of a groove worn in it from the Chicago Rawhide leather lip seal, but I installed a single new rubber lip seal in a slightly different location and no leaks since. Those old leather seals were sure hard on the steel sealing surfaces!

[Stanton]

Thanks for the explanation, I understand.

[Scott!]

When you remove the tapered bolts that hold the universal joint together, you will find that the bolts have a groove worn in them from the center plate of the universal joint. Weld up the groove and then smooth out the weld on a grindstone.

It's not too fussy, any improvement is better than what it was before you welded them up.

I've done both an H and an M. I did not find those bolts to be worn on either one of those tractors.

That's weird. I have done 2 Hs and one was bad and the next was worse!

[MisterT]

When you remove the tapered bolts that hold the universal joint together, you will find that the bolts have a groove worn in them from the center plate of the universal joint. Weld up the groove and then smooth out the weld on a grindstone.

It's not too fussy, any improvement is better than what it was before you welded them up.

I've done both an H and an M. I did not find those bolts to be worn on either one of those tractors.

That's weird. I have done 2 Hs and one was bad and the next was worse!

I wonder if maybe those tapered bolts had loosened up a bit, and the tractor had been used with the bolts being loose?

[Owen Aaland]

The bolts will stay tight because of the taper fit. When the rubber washers get worn they lose their ability to dampen the drive line vibrations. The vibration will cause wear on the bolts and plate.

[Red Tech]

When you remove the tapered bolts that hold the universal joint together, you will find that the bolts have a groove worn in them from the center plate of the universal joint. Weld up the groove and then smooth out the weld on a grindstone.

It's not too fussy, any improvement is better than what it was before you welded them up.

I've done both an H and an M. I did not find those bolts to be worn on either one of those tractors.

That's weird. I have done 2 Hs and one was bad and the next was worse!

I wonder if maybe those tapered bolts had loosened up a bit, and the tractor had been used with the bolts being loose?

X2 Owen. I was just typing the same info but you beat me to it. That is the reason that I ALWAYS replace the rubbers.

[1955farmall400]

When you remove the tapered bolts that hold the universal joint together, you will find that the bolts have a groove worn in them from the center plate of the universal joint. Weld up the groove and then smooth out the weld on a grindstone.

It's not too fussy, any improvement is better than what it was before you welded them up.

I've done both an H and an M. I did not find those bolts to be worn on either one of those tractors.

Same here, when we tore our M apart they came out with no problems and went back together with no problems.

[Diesel Doctor]

The problem I had was with the belly pump input shaft seal on the pump itself.

You have to unscrew the coupling to get the seal out and replaced.

You have to turn the coupling counter-clockwise to unscrew and remove.

I ended up having to take the pump out, get a brass drift wedged into the gears to get the coupling loose.

Don't worry about tightening it real tight as the coupling screws itself back onto the drive shaft.

I did have an issue with the seal holder in the transmission belly pump output shaft.

It was an aluminum/ woods metal holder that had stretched.

The new seal was loose in the holder.

Had to hit the junk yard and find a cast iron one so the seal would fit and stay in.

I am of the opinion that as long as you are in there, replace every seal you can.

If you don't you will be back to do it in the future.

I now need to replace the transmission input shaft bearing and seal.

Next time I think I will split it and work out in the open.

Much easier.

[Stanton]

The seals have arrived at my IH Case dealer. Plan to start the seal replacement project this weekend. Will let you know how it turns out.

BTW: the mystery bolt (see http://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85281&hl=bolt) was indeed #50 on page 112 of the Parts Manual. Finally craned my neck around to see the missing bolt opening. It appears the locknut that came out with the 1/2" NF bolt was too big for the bolt. It appeared to be a 5/8" or 3/4" locknut. I will replace with appropriate 1/2" locknut and replace washer, locknut and bolt while into my seal job.

Thanks for all the input.

[Stanton]

Started new thread: