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What do you do with your Quadratrack?

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You guys are getting way too high tech.

Now for a hillbilly solution. :D:D

If a 300 pound man grabs a 140 pound

mountain lion by the tail. The lion can out

pull the man. If it turns around it can sure

out push him. :D:D

The lion does'nt weigh as much,but it can

get all the traction it needs.

If Cats were designed to only push.

Why were dozers added years after they

were invented. I have been using the wrong

machine I guess. Ninty percent of the work

I have used a cat for is pulling.

Skidding logs,pulling rippers,root plows,trucks,

scrapers,disc,oil rigs,and a few other things.

KoO is going to have to start pushing sleighs! :D:D

[

A few years back I had a 310 stieger on a 18' single wing chisel plow well the tractor was needed for something else so I took it off the chisel plow and I had a D-7G with external hyd. outlets there so I thought I'd put it on the chisel and keep working I could pull the plow at the same dept and 1/3 the speed the Stieger pulled the plow plus a lot of tract slipage that I wasn't getting with the Stieger and wheels. I plowed with the 7 for a half a day and seen I wasn't getting anywhere fast. If it had a faster gears in it it wouldn't have got the slipage but then the weight would me a facter to. I still stand by my statement Dozer push and Quad tracts pull. Why do they have skidder aren't they faster than Dozer? And most construction companys use 637 for dirt Its been a long time since I seen a dozer pulling a pan for a construction company. As far as Discing I see more Cat rubber tract tractors pulling disc's on jobs then dozers don't know the last time I saw a dozer on a Disc. Bob

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How about a 140 lb man in a suomo wrestling match with a 300 lb man? Otherwise the fangs and claws taint the results. Woody Allen aganist Arnold S. Give Woody the spiked shoes. :D

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82-20-B Bob

We have skidders too. Some of the ground

we work is too steep for skidders.

They still use lots of cats and cans on small

jobs. Takes too much room to work a 627

in some places.

We still use a cat and offset constructon disc

for BLM and Forest Service work. Seems the

big rubber tire tractors like to fall over on the

side hills and gullys.

Stumps and boulders play heck with the rubber

track machines. The rubber tire tractors like to

find a soft spot and nest there.

Rippers seem to work a little better on a crawler

too.

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You are right if the chain starts out low enough that it can pull the front DOWN and you have a 2WD tractor. I don't see how that would help the quad. His chain if we can find a big enough one, will be coming from my drawbar which isn't low enough to help him.

Who said crawlers are made to "push"?  Pulling 27 yard scrapers was what my klunker was made for.  (extra long track with 26" pads)  Not to mention KoO and his Cat-trains.

The 2wd or 4wd is'nt the problem. I think we're getting close.

Lets just use your 24 for a minute. Say you hook it up to something it CANT quite move. Whatever it is. If you have all the traction you need, on whatever surface you decide is best for you, and all the power you need, in whatever gear you decide to use, will the front of your 24 come up off the ground??? First come up with an answer to this part, then go to the next paragragh.

Now what if you moved the engine foward about 2' in the chassis? We're not adding any weight. We're not moving the drawbar, just moving the engine foward. Will this add any more pulling force to your 24? Remember, you did'nt add anything, you just moved the engine foward cause the front end came up and you want to keep it down. You still have the same traction and the same power, you just are'nt limiting your pull now since you moved the engine foward to keep the front end down. Now you might be able to move the object without flipping the 24 over. Same thing on the quad, its engine and the greatest majority of its weight is out front, and its a long ways further out front than the 24.

Are we any closer??

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been staying out of this until know cos it looks like fun :P

cos i aint quite sure who would win in a dead pull, although i have the sneaking suspiscion the quad will win there as well, becaus ethe greater hp involved

ie 2 trucks, both indentical , 2 steer , twin screw, both with 15ton on them both, 1 has 210hp, 1 has 410hp, which 1 will go up the hill faster

but i do know that if u kicked the 24 up a couple of gear to around 3/4mph and did the same with the quadtrack

then the quadtrack will pull the 24 backwards kicking and screaming

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Some of you guys seem to have horsepower-itis! I thought I put that falacy to rest long ago. Which one will go up the hill faster? The The horsepower gwts you up the hill faster but the question is which one will out pull the other? The answer is the one with the most TRACTION.

I think you've been watching to many tractor pulls where they have 5 blown hemis in a 2WD racing tractor. This is where Old pokey's theories come in to play, in precise weight shifting with added weights to the front and precise drawbar positioning. In my pulloff I also want a precise drawbar height such that the front end doesn't rise even one inch. I can't win unless I can utilize the entire length of track on the ground evenly.

In an all out tractor pull they need speed to get the sled rolling fast before it becomes too heavy so that the momentum can carry them an extra 10 ft. I don't need speed, more like two 300 pound linebackers in a tug of war with a rope. If I start spinning my tracks I'll probably lose.

We all know that wheeled tractors and overpowered tractors are good at a lot of things some a lot better than crawlers which are slow and clumsy. But when it comes to brute force and speed isn't needed crawlers are hard to beat.

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We could settle this real quick if we could find some stats. I just came from the Case-IH home page and they only list Steiger quads and they all weigh over 50,000 lb, (no thanks!) And they listed everything BUT their max tractive effort. I couldn't find any specs on the ones marked Case 9370 or 9380. Anyhow this whole thread started over the statement that they have more traction than ANY crawler. How about a D11? Get serious. I Declare it a draw so we can put this thing to bed.

:rolleyes:

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Hope it's OK if I put my $.02 in, since this is an IH place here's some stuff on the good old TD25C first. This is from an actual IH sales brochure, yes I know about salesmen ;) but I'm sure you guys can see what actual facts these point out. When someone said crawlers were made for pushing or dozing, I couldn't keep quiet any longer, as Sawmill said he's used his for a lot more towing than just pushing. On pg 8, it shows that a 285 flywheel HP DT817 with 200 drawbar HP can produce just under 100,000 lbs of drawbar pull at 1/2 MPH. Pg 19 has some interesting facts too, see #8, it explains geared 2 speed steering, same as a TD24 has also, an identical system with a few updates. Not too sure about a TD24 but would a quadtrack outpull one of these, let alone a D575A2 superdozer from our good friends at Komatsu, they have a 90 yd blade & what they refer to as a giant ripper, 1150 HP & 330,000 lbs weight it has 180+ tons of drawbar pull at 1/2 MPH. I was reading a real interesting article on the new Bell quadtrack, it's built specifically for construction but still pales by comparison to the new steel track crawlers. I would learn a bit more before I made a claim like that about ANY rubber track machine. One more thing Idug up from an old post, I read some stuff about a D7G, so heres some "dirt" on C_t's efforts with a D8H ag tractor compared to a TD25C :D .Thats it for now, it's been interesting reading. Russ B)

PS, compare the 575 with a D11 & picture the 575 with a ripper!

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Some of you guys seem to have horsepower-itis!  I thought I put that falacy to rest long ago. Which one will go up the hill faster? The The horsepower gwts you up the hill faster but the question is which one will out pull the other? The answer is the one with the most TRACTION.

I think you've been watching to many tractor pulls where they have 5 blown hemis in a 2WD racing tractor. This is where  Old pokey's theories come in to play, in precise weight shifting with added weights to the front and precise drawbar positioning.  In my pulloff I also want a precise drawbar height such that the front end doesn't rise even one inch. I can't win unless I can utilize the entire length of track on the ground evenly. 

In an all out tractor pull they need speed to get the sled rolling fast before it becomes too heavy so that the momentum can carry them an extra 10 ft. I don't need speed, more like two 300 pound linebackers in a tug of war with a rope. If I start spinning my tracks I'll probably lose.

We all know that wheeled tractors and overpowered tractors are good at a lot of things some a lot better than crawlers which are slow and clumsy. But when it comes to brute force and speed isn't needed crawlers are hard to beat.

Sorry, I did'nt know we were having a contest. But I can see its a waiste of time going any further anyway.

I'm glad you have a nice 24 R-Cubed. I hope it does everything you need it to do and gives you good service for many years.

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OP I hope you notice that theres a lot of material here that might interest the others, sure I put in some stuff about the biggest crawler, I don't like to see claims that a quadtrack will outpull ANY crawler. Did you read my post? Also it shows that crawlers are good at pulling, can a rubbertrack machine rip rock? I'm not trying to PO you or anyone, I just don't like speculation without any facts, that was a good discussion & explanations of weight transfer, drawbar HP & traction. IH crawlers & quite a few others can turn with power to both tracks too. I love steel track machines, not to often I need to defend them, they all have jobs they were designed to do. I love seeing the big Quads too, they're sure quiet running!! Russ B)

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R Cubed,

if you want to let this die, ignore me. but i find this challenging and interesting. you or i, or both of us could learn something here.

as for the 8N chained to a power pole and flipping over, if you research the ford/ferguson 3 point system, why it was invented, and what it does with the transfer of an implements pull converted to increased weight on the drivers, hopefully what i and others say will make sense. with the 3 point system, it not only has saved countless lives, but will actually make a 4000

pound tractor pulling a load hooked at the three points weigh more than the 4000 pounds. if you could get a scale under the 4000 pound tractor working at full governer, a portion of the energy required to pull the implement is converted to increased tractor weight! the drawbar design of the 9380 is similar, or has similar effects to the tractor.

you seem to be hung on wieght is everything and HP meens nothing. i have a genuine IH TD24 service manual that lists the following

Maximum observed drawbar pull (at rated governed engine speed) in first gear 33600 pounds.

Calculated maximum drawbar pull (with overload as explained above) in first gear 38600. the overload explaination is with the engine loaded at the highest point in the engines torque curve.

what i did miss the other night is the drawbar HP of the 24 is listed at 140HP thats not much when compared to the quads 321HP

i checked the quads DRAWBAR HORSEPOWER in the specs and got 321!

i checked the TD24's DRAWBAR HORSEPOWER in the specs and got 140!

thier is only one method used to determine these figures. how you can look at these figures and come to any other conclusion than the fact that the quad has over twice the drawbar HP is beyond me.

weight is not the sole factor in this equation! its weight, horsepower and traction. the traction can be manipulated positively or negatively due to a drawbar design.

a TD24 with a 290 horse engine by my figures ends up at 240 drawbar HP.

140 drawbar horsepower is 83% of 167 gross horsepower of the stock 24.

83% of 290 gross horsepower of modified TD24 is 240HP at the drawbar!

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rocko,

indeed you have dug up some interesting facts. i believe i now understand what R Cubed is getting at.

horsepower is a rating that i believe to involve time as one of the many factors in determining a HP rating.

you may be getting into einsteins theory of relativity here. will a machine with a greater rating using time as a determing factor out pull a machine with a greater and different rating not using time as a determing factor?

the only way i know to figure this all out is find the 9380 quads pull rating in pounds pull rather than HP. the problem is the modern day ag tractor manufacturers like to list the drawbar rating in horsepower, not pounds.

seems like there is a formula for converting these figures but i could not find it the other day. i will have to look harder for this!

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Here's something interesting to think about on this subject, a cat D7LGP with a 270hp rated engine weighing 28 metric tonnes will pull 50 metric tonnes on snow sleighs,

a cat challenger with the same rated engine & weighing barely half that of the of the cat D7 will only pull half the weight the D7 will. The challenger will pull the 25 tonnes at three times the speed of the D7 does.

In any comparison I would put my money on the heaviest machine with the best ground traction ie grousers.

Reg

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OP  I hope you notice that theres a lot of material here that might interest the others, sure I put in some stuff about the biggest crawler, I don't like to see claims that a quadtrack will outpull ANY crawler. Did you read my post? Also it shows that crawlers are good at pulling, can a rubbertrack machine rip rock?  I'm not trying to PO you or anyone, I just don't like speculation without any facts, that was a good discussion & explanations of weight transfer, drawbar HP & traction. IH crawlers & quite a few others can turn with power to both tracks too. I love steel track machines, not to often I need to defend them, they all have jobs they were designed to do. I love seeing the big Quads too, they're sure quiet running!!  Russ B)

Rocko, I'm just here as a spectator. You dont PO me at all. :D

I too respect and completely understand the steel tracks have advantages as do the rubber ones. I also understand the 2 track crawler has its advantages over the 4 track quad as well. I may have completely misunderstood what it was we or I was trying to acomplish here. I guess I took the challenge as "A" quad could out pull "A" crawler. I was'nt so concerned about one specific quad being able to out pull any crawler in the world.

As to the rubber machine ripping rock, well, you might be supprised. And yes, I might be too. :D I think R-Cubed was wanting to pulloff in dirt groomed to pulling specs. Anyway, if the "contest" was between 2 equal machines, my money, will go on the quad. But, again, that may not even be in the ball park as to the needed findings of the thread.

Also, my mention of the crawler not turning under load was ment at full traction limit. Unless the drawbar or blade is mounted in the centerline of the track frames, to allow the pulling or pushing load to stay in its own pull or push line, then the tracks now have to redirect the loads direction which will result in overpowering the tracks ability to maintain their traction which was at is limit pushing or pulling in a straight line.

I'm enjoying this discussion very much. It would be great if it could continue. But, whatever works, is good with me. :D

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Coooool pics Rocko!!!

All of this arguing is worth it just to see them :P ! -Got anymore?? (please post more!)

-got to love those 25C's :wub: !

IH RD

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Ok, the Challenger will pull half the pull three times as fast as the D7. Anyone else with me on figuring the difference is the machine is geared different(higher) and/or, more probably it's a traction situation? Less absolute traction can get more absolute work done by doing it faster? Maybe a track clearing formula at work.

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Heres a bit more material from a 1976 Product Bulletin from Pay Line Division, it offers some info that may help you math types to figure something out. I am only assuming that rimpull can be equal to drawbar pull, it may not work either, anyway have fun, I like this discussion, Thanks, Russ B)

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Some of you seem to be confused with the difference between pulled WEIGHT and pulling FORCE. Force or what I call tractive effort is a horizontal load at the drawbar and is measured by putting a scale of some sort in the pulling tongue or chain. A tractor can pull many times it's weight if there are wheels or something slippery under it. 100 lb force will move a railroad car because of the low rolling resistance. Tractive effort of course depends on the surface as it is hard to get any on ice. A cog railroad on the other hand would be the optimum for traction. You could probably get 200% of your weight before slipping a cog. I don't think it would be possible to pull with a force equal to your weight on dirt. It will dig out when that limit is approached.

I hadn't really given this much thought until now.

================

PS: We were going out and crush a car with the 24 tomorrow but it's raining hard and so the fun will wait another week. I'll have to run over it with only one track because I don't have the belly pay on it yet. I'd hate to have the radio antenna poke a hole in my oil pan! Will have pix of this if and when it happens. :):)

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U-joint, I just now saw your post with all those "facts" taken out of a manual. You must remember that the 24 like most tractors gained HP and weight over the years as do most vehicles. The last one had more like 200 HP and my manual says 41895 LB tractive effort in low gear for a model 241 which is what I have. Anyhow, I no longer have that old klunker engine but a new cool 290 HP detuned to 275. Would have detuned it to 200 If they would have done it. Don't want to tear up my finals cause if I do it'll be on static display for the next umpteen years.

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If I may come in here, not to join in the debate, but merely to state that I don't especially like the Case IH QuadTrac nor the Caterpillar elevated sprocket types.

Just give me the old-fashioned oval track steel-shoed and grousered crawler and I'm in heaven! :lol::lol:

Th-th-th-th-that's all, folks! B):o:):D:lol:

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well i think on this topic, each company makes a machine that is best suited for the job. so if one is doing a job, one must fine a machine that a manufactors makes. in the great white north the quad track has not been used on the winter roads. but the cat chalanger has been used up here and it has failed when the sun makes the snow too soft. but fellow else where have had good luck with the chalanger. so it is different strokes for different folks.

one good example is doing a tamden pull with the LINN TRACTOR and the td-9 known as the FAMOUS BLACK CAT. when we spin out the LINN TRACTOR will back up with 4 loaded sleighs and the FAMOUS BLACK CAT still going forward. then just put in forward and let them pull together. it is amazng how the differnet track design makes the more superiour then others. but then again it can be a draw back.

thansk

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I dont know if these links will do anything for the conversation, but here's a link to R-C's horsepower example. http://www.web-cars.com/math/horsepower.html

This is a link to an explaination of torque. Should anyone wish to see it. It is somewhat understandable, but still could use some cleaning up. http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/tutorials/t...rque.intro.html

This is the best I can do right now for an example of the effects of weight transfer when power is applied to pull an object. When you get to the segment about "tractive force", be sure to recognize the phrase "dynamic weight (reactive force)". http://www.abe.iastate.edu/AST335/2003/Tra..._WismerLuth.pdf

In western definition we see DYNAMIC is; of energy or physical force in motion. And STATIC is; of masses, forces etc., at rest or in equalibrium.

I'll try another one of my goofy explainations at this again. Reguardles of horsepower, if you hook up to an object that is more than the static weight of the tractor, and watch the rear tires and the front tires when you atempt to pull the object, you'll notice the rear tires squat down a little and the front tires lift or go near weightless. When this happens, even before the object has moved at all, the weight that was on the front tires has now moved to the rear tires, which in turn will increase the "tractive force" available to move the object. Right????? <_<

If not, what caused the front to unload, and the rear to load heavier? It takes some power to achieve the force part of tractive force or effort.

Is this any help, or hinderence?

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You are exactly right! The weight that was on the front wheels is transfered to the rear driving wheels adding to the traction. However it doesn't add to the total weight of the tractor. If you have a 38000# tractor with 20K on the rear and 18K on the front you can transfer, say 15K to the rear and still have a little on the front to steer and 35,000# on the back wheels. I have 50,000# on my "wheels" without needing any transfer. You CAN add to the total "apparent" weight of the tractor if you hitch up to certain things, for example if he attached the chain to my klunker at a very low point that would pull his rear wheels down and tent to raise my rear end off the ground which would increase his traction and reduce mine. He would win in that case. Of course that wouldn't happen.

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Pokey, I realize you are just pursueing theory here but getting back to reality, I see no advantage to weight shifting on a 4WD tractor like the Quad. If there is one I wish someone would explain it.

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