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never have seen a 50 series like this


striker782

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Yes I agree the magnums a good tractor and they did a nice job taking the two company's and making one tractor out of it! But I agree IH hasn't gotten the credit do for the hard work and the cash they (IH) put into making the magnum! You could say the magnum out IH out of business because of the massive investment they put into the 50 series and magnum development!! I just want the truth!! After 30 years I would think they could tell us?

I don't think there would be a Case IH if International Harvester Company hadn't taken the time and money to develop the 50 series and trying to make the powershift transmission upgrade to the 50 series( now known as the magnum aka New Farmall) just my thought!

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IHCfarmer: Maybe Ken is hanging onto that story for a future book.

Maybe so...... B)

If you look back at 1987 when the MAGNUM came out, CASE people were still the ones "in charge" at the corporate level and they told the history of the MAGNUM the way they wanted to "hear" it. Now in 2014 (30 years later) very few of those people are still at CNH. Most have retired and moved on.

Some of us are trying to correctly "re write" the history and it can be challenging. There are new ideas in the works to capture and preserve the history of IH. I know of at least 3 new "red" books in the works now that due out by 2017.

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Well I was hoping to know all with the red tractor book!! It's a good book but would like to know more about the 50 series and magnum development! Also more on the super 70 series and the small tractors! (85 series IH European based world tractor) ! I know it's a hard job and I thank you ken and everyone working on

preserving IH's history ! So to everyone out there fixing a tractor or writing a book or making a video I say thanks it's cool to see all the IH stuff and info being saved!!

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We all know IH did not go broke because they didn`t have a good product, it was the best and still is. They just didn`t have the right guys in the sales it seems like. Need those guys that can sell refrigerators to eskimos. As far as the 86 series trans they wouldn`t let that go because the power loss to the ground was too good. Way better than the green ones.

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Maybe he just forgot about the thing. After 30 years there couldn't be any great number of customer that would hang on to animosity. IH made fine tractors, but not fine enough to survive. They were behind the times. They needed the Magnum in 1980, not 1986. The 88 series wasn't good enough to overcome their debt and reputation. They goofed up. Even with the release of the Magnums, (Which everyone knows I love) they still would have been a little behind with hydraulics and turn radius. But their transmissions were second to none. Finally. Which is a sharp contrast to the 86 series with T/A, which I would consider one of the worst transmissions EVER for ergonomics and reliability. They killed their own reputation by sticking with the same ol, same ol for too long.

Not sure I agree with that............IH tried to make changes, but they never made the change 100%, Deere on the other hand made a switch, did it well, and built it for years on end. I would have thought by the mid-80's, Deere would have dumped those stupid cabs, nope, changed some minor stuff and just kept sending them out the door to customers excited to get them. And even after the Magnum was released, they still sold them to the faithful. Not sure if that was the marketing department, and good dealers, but I have to commend them, they definitely made it happen.

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Well. Ken , I am pleased to hear your working on the next big thing , that's great !!! There are enough of us that love IH and we could help you out in the real story for your book !!!!

The 5388 and I wish you the best of luck in the new book and you better plan a trip to the under ground bunker. A black suburban with tinted windows will be taking you to lunch one of these first days. They will debrief you and give you your pass in to the Proving Grounds, make sure your on your best behavior , if ya know what I'm sayin !!!

Boss, Dirt Boyz Proving Grounds

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Sorry double post

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I find it is really funny that after 29 years someone at caseIH wouldn't let Ken and Lee wright the whole story on the magnum and that IH did indeed have a working prototype with the 18 speed powershift!

Just go's to show that Case still thinks they are better then International Harvester! LOL they haven't figured out that case still sucks!

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Maybe he just forgot about the thing. After 30 years there couldn't be any great number of customer that would hang on to animosity. IH made fine tractors, but not fine enough to survive. They were behind the times. They needed the Magnum in 1980, not 1986. The 88 series wasn't good enough to overcome their debt and reputation. They goofed up. Even with the release of the Magnums, (Which everyone knows I love) they still would have been a little behind with hydraulics and turn radius. But their transmissions were second to none. Finally. Which is a sharp contrast to the 86 series with T/A, which I would consider one of the worst transmissions EVER for ergonomics and reliability. They killed their own reputation by sticking with the same ol, same ol for too long.

Not sure I agree with that............IH tried to make changes, but they never made the change 100%, Deere on the other hand made a switch, did it well, and built it for years on end. I would have thought by the mid-80's, Deere would have dumped those stupid cabs, nope, changed some minor stuff and just kept sending them out the door to customers excited to get them. And even after the Magnum was released, they still sold them to the faithful. Not sure if that was the marketing department, and good dealers, but I have to commend them, they definitely made it happen.

You can talk about TA or no TA, good cab or bad cab, etc. etc. etc. but the downfall of the IH ag division had not much to do with their products and everything to do with their management.

Al

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Maybe he just forgot about the thing. After 30 years there couldn't be any great number of customer that would hang on to animosity. IH made fine tractors, but not fine enough to survive. They were behind the times. They needed the Magnum in 1980, not 1986. The 88 series wasn't good enough to overcome their debt and reputation. They goofed up. Even with the release of the Magnums, (Which everyone knows I love) they still would have been a little behind with hydraulics and turn radius. But their transmissions were second to none. Finally. Which is a sharp contrast to the 86 series with T/A, which I would consider one of the worst transmissions EVER for ergonomics and reliability. They killed their own reputation by sticking with the same ol, same ol for too long.

Not sure I agree with that............IH tried to make changes, but they never made the change 100%, Deere on the other hand made a switch, did it well, and built it for years on end. I would have thought by the mid-80's, Deere would have dumped those stupid cabs, nope, changed some minor stuff and just kept sending them out the door to customers excited to get them. And even after the Magnum was released, they still sold them to the faithful. Not sure if that was the marketing department, and good dealers, but I have to commend them, they definitely made it happen.

You can talk about TA or no TA, good cab or bad cab, etc. etc. etc. but the downfall of the IH ag division had not much to do with their products and everything to do with their management.

Al

BINGO!
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I can't say that they had that great of a product towards the end. I think now that 30 years has passed, the current value of the machines would be the telltale sign on how good (or bad) the products were. There are lovers and haters of every product, but the auction price tells the truth. Typically, IH 5488s won't bring the $ that Deere 4850s brings. 1086s wont bring what 4440s bring. No doubt that management screwed the pooch, and that was the reason for their ultimate demise, but the product wasnt as good as it had been historically. They FINALLY had a really good product with the 71 series Magnum. It woke Deere up. I think IH DID get all the credit for building the Magnum. Only a blind person could miss all the similarites. Red Tractors went very in depth into the whole Magnum story and history . I thought it was the best part of the book.

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I can't say that they had that great of a product towards the end. I think now that 30 years has passed, the current value of the machines would be the telltale sign on how good (or bad) the products were. There are lovers and haters of every product, but the auction price tells the truth. Typically, IH 5488s won't bring the $ that Deere 4850s brings. 1086s wont bring what 4440s bring. No doubt that management screwed the pooch, and that was the reason for their ultimate demise, but the product wasnt as good as it had been historically. They FINALLY had a really good product with the 71 series Magnum. It woke Deere up. I think IH DID get all the credit for building the Magnum. Only a blind person could miss all the similarites. Red Tractors went very in depth into the whole Magnum story and history . I thought it was the best part of the book.

It would have been a vicious cycle. Better management would have led to better products. The key is the issues IH had with proper management. For example, if engineers had been given more resources/time, the 460/560 thing would never have happened.

I am not convinced that auction prices on something 30 years old is an accurate measure of how good the product really was when it was current. All it really tells you is what people are willing to pay in 2014, based on any number of factors, mostly the perception of the potential buyers. For example I wouldn't give you $100 for a N-series Ford, but many people will pay serious money for them.

Al

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Does that mean a 2 cyl JD of similar size is better than a SMTA or any letter series IH because there are people out there that will pay more for them now....... I still cant believe a company that made a worthless 2 cyl for years could sell enough to stay in business for more than a couple years, but some how they made them long time and people bought them.

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The downfall of IH occurred primarily in the Fowler McCormick and John McCaffery years. After that it was just damage control until near the end when they had a bunch of clowns running the company. Mind you, they had some good people running the company in the damage control years (1958 to 1977). Harry Bercher was an excellent manager and was responsible for the excellent 806 tractor. All said and done the 06 and 56 series were very competitive, and it was afterward that their tractors became uncompetitive. Brooks McCormick made the right move in developing the Axial Flow combines but wasted his time on the 2+2 tractors. To have stayed competitive the 50 series tractors should have been introduced in about 1972. As such, they weren't even in development then. Furthermore, they should have cleaned up their finances by 1977 through the profitable sale of Solar, Wisconsin Steel, West Pullman, and the money losing Hough related construction equipment.

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I can't remember where but I did read that the 5x88 series really had Deere worried.The economy took care of things for them.4850's are proven tough tractors but they're fuel pigs.

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I fully agree with the comments about Case and IH and how Case IH still don't want to acknowledge that the Magnum was IH. Incidentally for anyone interested in some of the European tractors as well as US ones I have a facebook group which is going quite well. https://www.facebook.com/groups/706786569355741/

Thanks,

Paul

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You could have used any year you wanted for my example, using the models I mentioned. Typically, the Deere equivalents always brought more money. It could have been an auction in 1990, 1995, 2000, or today. We are 30 years out, and still, the Deeres practically always bring more money, unless the Deere is ragged out. I'm not talking about 2 cylinders or SMTA antiques for collectors, I'm talking about the ones made during the final 10 years of IH. The ones people would actually still buy to farm with. I stick with the notion that the auction prices are very accurate indications of what farmers thought of those era of tractors.

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A 856 will bring more at a action than a 4020 in the same condition, its a old wives tale about JD selling for more at a action, its all about location and condition. JD R&D was all about waiting and making a copy of other successful line ups. JD tested a Case LA to make the 4010 , got Mr Brock from Ford would did the R&D for the Ford SOS to make the JD powershift and the list goes on and on.

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As my grandpa used to always say IHs sell themselves, John Deere has salesman. The salesmen got the guys hooked and they kept buying the deeres. I drove a 4430 for a day and I couldn't wait to get back home to the 1066. I didnt like looking around a bar and a muffler.

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Haha. This is a funny site. People don't read before they respond, then they go way off track. I mentioned specific models made in the final years of IH, and people want to respond with info about manufacturing plagiarism, 2 cylinders antiques, Ford 8Ns, and 56 series. Talk about blind and addicted to kool aid.... Try to be objective.

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one thing you have to remember is the parts support for the red tractors is not the same as it used to be when ih ran the show. the frist years with case a lot of red guys said good bye. this drove the price of red tractors down.

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I don't get it. Maybe if I had farmed in the 60s, I'd like old red tractors. We were a mostly green family in the 70s and 80s, but we had a few 86 and 88 series. I HATED those tractors. They were awful. Then we got Magnums and we tilted to almost completely red. But if I had to go back in time, I would prefer a 40 series Deere over an 86 series all day long. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who has mostly red tractors today.

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one thing you have to remember is the parts support for the red tractors is not the same as it used to be when ih ran the show. the frist years with case a lot of red guys said good bye. this drove the price of red tractors down.

You are right on !!

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Virginia Veg: I used to own a 1086 and by brother in law owned a 4440. Equivalent HP tractors. I have driven both of them enough to offer this opinion. My opinion is that both of them were a POS, The 1086 gear shifts in your road in getting into the cab, and their lousily designed TA and throttle levers never ceased to annoy me. The 4440 with that da** vertical bar in the windshield and big muffler in front of you coupled with a Quad Range transmission that was a mean sob to shift also never ceased to annoy me. When you compare both of them to my MX120 they were both crappy tractors to drive. Frankly, I am glad to see both of them gone. The MX120 will stay on the farm as long as I am farming.

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