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IH Tractors on Montana Farm


Old Binder Guy

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Anson, It's true thieves love a neat, organized shop. A place for everything and everything in its place. But they also hate getting shot at, and chewed up by a German Shepard! And if I were driving in, I'd chase and shoot as well. But on the flip side of that tool coin, are all of the tools I've lost over the years. No thief is going to get them. (Neither am I). They are LOST. However, the last harvest on the Lewistown homestead, Mike and I were camped in a camper at Eddies Corner. While we were in eating, my main tool box got lifted from the back of my pickup. I can't tell you what all was in that tool box, but when I started out as a body man in 1962, I bought a Snap On 1/4" socket set in a red tin box. They got that, those miserable thieves. I kept a well equipped tool box in each combine and locked them in the cabs each night. So I wasn't "toolless," just my 1/4" socket set was gone. I have since found a Snap On green tin box and bought a new 1/4" ratchet. But the rest of the tools in the box are Craftsman. But, what the heck... with my health headed where it's going, I may not even be able to wear out those guaranteed Craftsman sockets and extensions?

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Thank Goodness, I left my 3/8" set of Snap On sockets at home in the shop that time at Eddies Corner. I'd have cried crocodile tears over that one. 

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I remembered I'd taken this photo of my newer Snap On socket wrench ratchets.

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These socket wrench ratchets are a little older. One is a male ratchet and the other is a female. (Its a good thing we don't have to explain the "genders" of these ratchets to farm boys! However the female ratchet with the Model T Ford Valve Seat Reamer says she is transgender and wants to become a male ratchet.)

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Here's a corn shredder being turned by an IHC Farmall Regular on some more eastern farm. Gary?

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Gary, I have one of those Female ratchets  that my Dad used when he owned his Ford Garage in the 1920s to 1935.

I also have the adapter to make her transgender, along with an assortment of pullers & valve spring compressor Etc.

A few years ago I found a 1920 Model T parts book at an auction.

Henry being the frugal fellow he was must have had a hand in setting up the Parts catalog because every part , nut, & bolt has a code word

so you could order a part by telegraph with one word plus the number of how many you wanted.

Ray

 

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2 hours ago, 664 CDN said:

Gary, I have one of those Female ratchets  that my Dad used when he owned his Ford Garage in the 1920s to 1935.

I also have the adapter to make her transgender, along with an assortment of pullers & valve spring compressor Etc.

A few years ago I found a 1920 Model T parts book at an auction.

Henry being the frugal fellow he was must have had a hand in setting up the Parts catalog because every part , nut, & bolt has a code word

so you could order a part by telegraph with one word plus the number of how many you wanted.

Ray

 

Ray... So you are telling me you have a "snap on tool" to make her a him? Gary?

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Those are some nice looking tools Gary. I don't remember how old I was when I got my large Craftsman set of sockets with all the 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" drive sockets in standard and metric. Must have been 15 or 16 probably. I have replaced the ratchets with Snap-on since then as I have found used ones here and there. When I bought my girlfriend (now wife) a diamond ring I got ahold of the Snap-on man and ordered a 3/8 flex head ratchet I had been lusting after for a long time. I figured it was much cheaper than that ring was so I gifted it to myself. I still have my wife and that ratchet. Her Dad laughed really hard when I told him that story.

 No need to give up on wearing those tools out just yet. Anson might need help bolting a heavier bed on the old loadstar for watermelon delivery this year when he has a bumper crop. ?

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1 minute ago, Sledgehammer said:

Those are some nice looking tools Gary. I don't remember how old I was when I got my large Craftsman set of sockets with all the 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" drive sockets in standard and metric. Must have been 15 or 16 probably. I have replaced the ratchets with Snap-on since then as I have found used ones here and there. When I bought my girlfriend (now wife) a diamond ring I got ahold of the Snap-on man and ordered a 3/8 flex head ratchet I had been lusting after for a long time. I figured it was much cheaper than that ring was so I gifted it to myself. I still have my wife and that ratchet. Her Dad laughed really hard when I told him that story.

 No need to give up on wearing those tools out just yet. Anson might need help bolting a heavier bed on the old loadstar for watermelon delivery this year when he has a bumper crop. ?

I got my snap on ratchet well worth the money...

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No watermelons this year.  At the end of watermelon season last year------- I told my wife to promise to not let me even go near the garden/watermelon patch come this spring!!!!

My neighbor's wife readily took over the "produce operation"-------and has a few watermelons about ripe.

She bought a pack of squash seed-------that turned out to be minature pumpkins.  She dropped off a pumpkin and cantaloupe this morning------so we are ready for Haloween!!!!!!?

No economics to it---------but sure makes an old codger feel good "eating off of the land".  Especially  when it is Delta Dirt.

*****

I find it ironic that both the F700 (watermelon truck) and the Loadstar's empty weight are within approximately 100 lbs of each other (13,900+/_ lbs).

Loadstar lighter truck with heavier bed (22 ft roll back)-------F700 heavier truck with lighter bed (16 ft tilt grain bed).

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Neither need anymore iron hanging on them based on their empty weight.

Be interesting to see what Ralph's Loadstar empty weight is???

******

I don't need any of those female ratchets.  Would concern me that the male and female ratchets might "get laid" together in the tool box.  I stay screwed up enough as it is!!!!??

 

DD

 

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32 minutes ago, Delta Dirt said:

 

Neither need anymore iron hanging on them based on their empty weight.

Be interesting to see what Ralph's Loadstar empty weight is???

******

 

DD

 

Hi Anson, I'd forgot you had a Loadstar. I guess at 13,900 pounds I'd feel like I was running empty. Not that I'd admit to running over weight but rumour has it that the old 1600 has crossed the scales at close to the 30,000 pound mark. more than once in it's time :-*)  Empty is weighs just under 9000 pounds. 

 

 
 

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10 hours ago, Old Binder Guy said:

Ray... So you are telling me you have a "snap on tool" to make her a him? Gary?

Gary, No I don,t have a Snapon adapter, just a Long extension that fits the female ratchet on one end and other end is regular male end .

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Sorta think I am wrong at the 13,900 empty weight-------believe they are at 12,900 lbs empty.

I was thinking 9,500+/_ lbs  on the more conventional single axle bob trucks like yours.

I also had a set of side boards for hauling grain----------I always thought that you should not be overloaded unless the grain is spilling over the sideboards!!!!?

We used the 1600 as a demonstrator unit when selling the Grove roll backs to the implement dealers.  The 1600 originally had a 18 ft Economy model roll back which we sold off-----then spliced truck frame and installed the 22 ft Deluxe model roll back.  Most of the implement dealers down here put the 22 ft roll backs on tandem axle 1800 class trucks.  But this made for a good demonstration unit.

Eventually tractors got larger and larger and dealers had to go to the dove tail lowboys on a semi truck.

Here in the mid-south area back in the '60s and early '70s-------seemed like there were as many Loadstar on the road as all of the other brands combined.  

 

DD

 

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Had to go back and find these pictures in my computer files---------we were a distributor for Grove in the 60's:

The tandem axle Loadstar 1800 in the first picture belonged to Delta Implement Co. (IHC dealer) here in Greenville, Mississippi.   They used to pick up two 806 tractors at a time on this truck from the  Memphis warehouse.  Tractors got bigger (weight and height) and eventually this type truck became obsolete for the larger implement dealers.    Those old Loadstar's were workhorses.

The Deluxe models were operated by two lift cylinders, plus a roll back cylinder------------loading angle was approximately 11 degrees; plus you could operate the tilt and roll back separately from each other.

The Economy models were operated by a single cylinder with a cantilever mechanism that tilted and rolled back the platform all in one motion--------------loading angle was approximately 16 degrees.

These were considerably stronger and heavier construction than what you see on today's car haulers.   I do remember moving my old TD-14 with the blade a couple of times on my 1600-----------might have been slightly overloaded with approx 24,000 lbs on the single axle and 8.25x20 tires-------------but got lucky on the short haul!!!:wacko:

 

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Delta Dirt   (Avon   Ms  38723)

 

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I think a roll back would be handy as a pocket on a shirt.  Thanks for the brochure pics. There is a guy that comes to our fair tractor pulls every year (antique) and has an old COE with a roll back restored to haul his tractor. It is fun to watch. I will try and grab a picture of it this year if I can

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A number of these roll backs were mounted onto the CO-Loadstars once they came along.

Even several of the John Deere dealers ran the Loadstars------buying them from their local tractor competition.

*****

Nothing wrong with being friends with your competition.  I always heard that your competitor was a pretty good guy------but beware of your competer.  He is a real prick!!!!??

 

DD

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Professor-----

Check out the thread "International Harvester dealership in 1940's" by Kansas Farmer.

His parents operated the dealership pictured-------and he commented that he was stored in a parts bin when he was a baby.

I suggested that he change his handle to "Kansas Farmer R91".

Seems like so many IH parts were xxxxxR91.  What was the deal on the R91 designations-------and some of the other ending numbers.

Figured with you being an old parts man and the Professor------you would know.

 

DD

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On 7/8/2018 at 12:49 AM, Loadstar said:

Hi Anson, I'd forgot you had a Loadstar. I guess at 13,900 pounds I'd feel like I was running empty. Not that I'd admit to running over weight but rumour has it that the old 1600 has crossed the scales at close to the 30,000 pound mark. more than once in it's time :-*)  Empty is weighs just under 9000 pounds. 

 

 
 

Loadstar---that is a beautiful truck.

Are you the original owner?   It sure is  well taken care of

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22 minutes ago, Eric V Bielke said:

Loadstar---that is a beautiful truck.

Are you the original owner?   It sure is  well taken care of

Thanks,  but no, my dad bought truck used at a farm auction in 1984. I think it had around 80,000 miles on it at the time. It looks a little better now than it did in 1984. I believe the paint is original. 

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3 hours ago, Delta Dirt said:

Professor-----

Check out the thread "International Harvester dealership in 1940's" by Kansas Farmer.

His parents operated the dealership pictured-------and he commented that he was stored in a parts bin when he was a baby.

I suggested that he change his handle to "Kansas Farmer R91".

Seems like so many IH parts were xxxxxR91.  What was the deal on the R91 designations-------and some of the other ending numbers.

Figured with you being an old parts man and the Professor------you would know.

 

DD

Anson, I was a partsman 44 years ago. There are gentlemen on this forum who know a heck of a lot more than I do about what all of that meant. I know earlier designations during the McCormick-Deering era were generally a shorter number with a D or a DA. The DA probably was an upgrade? The R-91 parts numbers were always six digits, I believe? I can't remember any of the parts numbers anymore. On second thought, the TD-40's WD-9's and early Farmall M's (maybe more) used a fat oil filter: 376 376 R-91. That's about all I know anymore. There were variants of the same parts number. For example, if that early oil filter was a brown heavy paper like material with "accordion" folds in it, it may have been a "XXXXX D" number. The later ones were red plastic like top and bottom with the slick white paper with holes in it and IH on it. They were the 376 376 R-91 (92 or 93?). If someone had come up with a better oil filter before IH folded, it may have been a 376 376 R-92. I remember the sleeves and pistons of a TD-40 were cast iron and would fit into the block holes of your TD-14. Same dimensions. However your TD-14 likely had an aluminum alloy piston in their sleeves. It seems like the ones we had in stock were XXX XXX R-93, or R-94 or R-95. The newer tractors being sold, and the trucks, pickups & Scouts were using XXX XXX C-1 and C-91 parts numbers. If I remember right, some of those newer parts had 7 digits and the C-91, or X XXX XXX C-91 (92 or 93?)

Now old Carl Magnusson, I worked with, owned his own IHC store in North Dakota. He sold it and moved to Montana and just became Bourke Motor & Implement's partsman. By the time I started there, he'd bought into the business. Carl knew darn near every parts number of the older tractors, balers, combines etc. and their bin location, without ever looking up anything but the price (which was changing regularly by 1974 when I started. I remember him telling me, if I want antifreeze I should buy what stock we needed on the farm, as "It's going up to $5.00 a gallon.")

Now, Anson, I doubt you're a darn bit smarter about R-91 than you were, because I'm not a bit smarter. Actually, I'm quite a bit less smart than I was back then. And you and I seem to age about the same speed? But I still remember having oatmeal for breakfast! How's that for duration?!!

I doubt this first F-30 "duckbill" tractor ever made it to a Montana farm, but I guess it could have? The F-30 had the same engines as the 15-30, I understand. I'm not real bright about these tractors either.

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I do know a little bit about the Farmall F-12 though. Ours has this Bourke Motor & Implement sticker on it. Ordinarily, I'd have taken solvent and removed modern stickers, similar to this. But since I'd worked there, I left them on it. Johnny Bourke "fixed it up" or basically got it running well and painted it. He used it to display with his new IH tractors and implements at the Central Montana Fair.

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And the whole tractor. It grew up on a Montana Farm. It was sold to a rancher in eastern Montana by Johnny's father, Fred Bourke. Johnny knew about the F-12 from visiting the farm. That gentleman's son came in to Bourke Motor one day and was wanting to buy a new IH swather. John and he worked it into the trade deal. And this F-12 again lives as an IH Tractor on a Montana Farm.  Gary?

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I don't remember specific parts numbers-------but seemed like everything for the old M's and even the TD-14 ended in R91.

Another change of the times I just thought about------I used to call the parts counter and have them set sizeable $$$ worth of parts out the front door for me to pick up after closing time.  I would get in late (we lived in Greenville at the time) and go by early next morning and pick my parts package up.

No way in modern times is that possible here in the Delta--------the parts would be gone and we are damn lucky if the drug heads didn't run off with the building the night before.

 

DD

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The old F-30's would out pull a M on drawbar pull.  The F-30 would be the "go to" wheel tractor when something was stuck-------while the M's set by and watched.

Lots of farmers down here referred to the F-30 as "Big Boy".

Later in life-------I wondered if this fact might not have been related to the F-30 having a higher drawbar height (pull point) than the drawbar height on the M.

I still have the rear end and radiator from my dad's old F-30.  

It must have been under full load when a connecting rod came out the side of the block--------left a sizeable "window" in the block.?  (but Leroy didn't here it knocking!!!)

It's hard to visualize how hard our Delta labor force could/can be on a piece of equipment.  Anvils, cannonballs, railroad iron, engines, etc............could all be destroyed in short timeframes.

God bless the old mules that worked the cotton fields----------they had to withstand a lot.

******

When did the Duckbill steering come out.?

What was the difference in it and the conventional enclosed steering box???

 

DD

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15 hours ago, Delta Dirt said:

Seems like so many IH parts were xxxxxR91.  What was the deal on the R91 designations-------and some of the other ending numbers.

l've wondered about too so when you asked, l asked Ken Updike on FB about it. He didn't give any specific info about the "R91", but did say that IH used a variant of the GM parts numbering system and that Massy-Ferguson used a similar system.

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i believe the duckbill was a spur and bevel gear and the newer were worm and worm wheel . the duckbill was also enclosed. several companys  made closures for the regular steering.     seems like the F30 came out in 1931, or 32 /duckbill.

 

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It's hot here tonight in the shop....

weather on my phone says 90* and feels like 99*. Humidity only at 55% according to phone. It's been worse in the last few weeks but today has felt especially warm. Everyone be careful if you have to be out in it. My sweating has no one to blame but me. I'm adjusting a few things on the 686 tonight. 

IMG_5128.JPG

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12 hours ago, Delta Dirt said:

I don't remember specific parts numbers-------but seemed like everything for the old M's and even the TD-14 ended in R91.

Another change of the times I just thought about------I used to call the parts counter and have them set sizeable $$$ worth of parts out the front door for me to pick up after closing time.  I would get in late (we lived in Greenville at the time) and go by early next morning and pick my parts package up.

No way in modern times is that possible here in the Delta--------the parts would be gone and we are damn lucky if the drug heads didn't run off with the building the night before.

 

DD

This is what I know about this part naming system. During WWII the US military were dismayed at the number of parts and different systems for naming them that they had to stock to keep the war machine going. Ford had their own system that had the central numbers preceded by an alpha numeric prefix and if there was more than 1 there would be several alpha suffixes as in C1AZ -6731-A. This was the oil filter used in mid 1965 model Mercury and Ford cars. 6731 stood for an oil filter. C was for 1960 to 1969 the 1 was initial issue in 1961, AZ was for all models. The suffix at the end indicated there was only oil filter from Ford under the 6731 number. That system was developed in the 1930s. Ford was one of the few that had an organized parts system at the time. The rest were a hodge podge of alpha numeric numbers. So the US military procurement grew weary of this hodge podge and proposed several solutions. One was the GM system of 7 numbers. All I know is certain parts started with 1 (starters and generators for example), others started with 3 3tc. Then there was another system that was adopted by IH and Massey Ferguson. JD had their own system and did not change it. To this day you have no idea of what the part is by the number. I am most familiar with the IH and Massey System.

The original system invoked at the end of WWII for IH used a 6 digit number followed by R1, R11, R21, R31 sometimes R41, and the usual R91. the R stood for two things R meaning revision 1 2, 3 as IN R1, R2, R3 etc. R11 usually stood for two piece assemblies. I think the R21, R31, and R41 were revisions to R11. Then the R91. The R91 referred to a part where there were several R1 parts composing all the parts in an assembly. So a 6 digit R91 assembly could have a dozen or more parts constituting the R91 assembly. IH also used the 5 digit designation for bolts and nuts and later on for whole parts. And IH would allocate batches of part numbers to the individual plants through the bills of material they were using. For instance the Tractor plants got numbers starting with 350000R1 in 1946 and continued to about 409000C1 in the early 1970's. The tillage people got numbers in the 450000R1 up to 550000R1 .Doncaster got 700000R1 to 750000 R1(I think). Hamilton got numbers for drills etc starting at 800000R1. Melrose Park got numbers in the 250000R1 to 349000R1. Not sure of trucks but I think they were in the 100000R1 or 200000R1 or construction equipment. So to an old hand like me I could tell you that a part with the 354000R1 was probably used first in about 1951. Similarly 368000R1 was first used in about 1958. And so on. By 1970, IH had gone to 7 digit numbers usually starting with 3000000R1 for the European produced tractors. They always had used the 1000000R1 for publications such as operating manuals. This was getting unwieldy so IH adopted the C designation (change) instead of R designation in the 1970 period. With the proliferation of parts in the 1970's this system lasted about 10 years before they were back again at 7 digits. By the Tenneco takeover the system was changed again to A(alteration). and the 91 designation was dropped So early Case IH parts had 6 digit numbers followed by A1, A2 for a revised version etc. When the CNH merger occurred the New Holland (FIAT)  system of 8 numbers or more was used to get away from the confusing array Case and David Brown had brought to the mix of part numbers

Massey-Ferguson adopted a similar system and they are still using the M (modification) as in 357323M1. Simply put they had many fewer parts than IH of Case IH had.           

       

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Thank you from Old Binder Guy as well, George. I was only an IH partsman for two years. If a farmer "asked what time it was, I could tell him what time it was. But I didn't know how to build the clock" as far as IH parts numbers went. I'm glad you know the inner workings of it. I wasn't schooled on IH parts. I was just hired, told to get behind the counter with a pen and paper, and sell parts. I went to work about this time of year. There were lines of farmers needing haying machine parts. It was kind of like learning how to blow up a rubber life raft and a "Mae West" (that ought to confuse the youngsters, Anson!??!) after being dropped into the ocean by parachute. Gary?

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