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IH Tractors on Montana Farm


Old Binder Guy

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Been scrolling though you "seasoned citizens" thread here.  Catch-up about 1x a week.  With all the things going on with dairy industry,   my farm, world, kids growing, etc.....sighhhh/swallow...this song (wrote by him for gpa whom passed) just comes up seeing these old pics and reading old stories.   In my 43 yrs i sure wish i had a few more min here n there in the past.  You who are ahead of me i bet appreciate stuff more than i do, have, last few years.  So wish i could somehow meet you folks and listen to your stories and trial and tribulations youve seen over coffee.  Thanks for sharing here for us kids to taste a bit of how things were. 

Dont we all wish for a pause button? 

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 Old binder guy, i didnt think you were complaining i was just commenting on what little i knew about the comercial end and what was required here. Tho the first class DesMoins license is not required every where as far as i know.

  I find this whole steam thing interesting. You have had a intersting carrer and been lucky enough to be around a lot of engines sounds like.  

   Guess im a bit suprised the engines at least are not required to be inspected. 

  I do remember a few years back....or maybe more than a few . A guy drove a newly restored engine down the road and over fired it. When he got to show there was a dispute of some kind and distracted the guy and engine over presured and blew up killing several and injuring more. At least that is the way i remember it. You may know more about this story than i do though.

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10 hours ago, iowaboy1965 said:

 Old binder guy, i didnt think you were complaining i was just commenting on what little i knew about the comercial end and what was required here. Tho the first class DesMoins license is not required every where as far as i know.

  I find this whole steam thing interesting. You have had a intersting carrer and been lucky enough to be around a lot of engines sounds like.  

   Guess im a bit suprised the engines at least are not required to be inspected. 

  I do remember a few years back....or maybe more than a few . A guy drove a newly restored engine down the road and over fired it. When he got to show there was a dispute of some kind and distracted the guy and engine over presured and blew up killing several and injuring more. At least that is the way i remember it. You may know more about this story than i do though.

Troy Dairy, thanks for that video! I appreciate it!!

iowaboy1965, I just wanted to clarify, the engines in Iowa are not required "BY THE STATE" to be inspected. These operators at the shows in Iowa probably do more to insure safety and perpetuation of their engine's lives than if the state did it?

Yes, I remember too much about that 32 hp (110) Case that blew up at Medina, Ohio on July 29th 2001. The sheriff's video cam recorded it blowing that 20+ ton engine 17 feet into the air. That engine had a weak boiler, but if they'd lowered the pressure down from the 200 psi it was purportedly operating at, if the pop valve had worked, if the injector had been sized for the correct pressure, and if they could have kept water on the crown sheet, it wouldn't have blown. If they'd noticed it didn't have water in the gauge glass soon enough, they could have backed it into a ditch and all would have been fine. I believe four people were killed. The gentleman had other issues with low and NO water at prior times, from what I was told by people who knew him personally, at shows. Gary:(

PS: On SmokStak.com one of the arithmetic (Anson!) or math guru's calculated that the expended energy released when this engine blew up, it could have propelled a 5" steel ball to the moon!

5ab558b3461e9_110CaseExplosionatMedinaOH7-29-01.thumb.jpg.d570b5ea11f6c4463f5885eba516a1b7.jpg

5ab558e7ef96b_MedinaOhio32Caseexplosionrightdriver.thumb.jpg.2a30d450787bcfed74ab2213b18bfd3d.jpg

5ab559b94abb1_MedinaOhio32Caseexplosionrearhead.thumb.jpg.02e946d1e97da42514c96128a83d6397.jpg

 

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The power of steam is just amazing. I’ve never been around it in any form, but someday I may find myself with enough time on my hands to see it in action. 

Gary, per your picture of the possible oil burner at the GNRY yard. A few years ago we had a locomotive come through a town about 15 miles away from me (Alton, IA) that had been restored by employees of the Union Pacific Railway. I didn’t get a chance to go see it, but a good friend of mine did. It was an oil burner that had been working in the Wyoming area most of its life. He was told it had pulled five miles of coal cars at 70 mph on a regular basis. It burned No. 5 oil—must be almost as thick as crude?—and was very long, it was hinged so it could take the curves. Sure wish I had been able to see it that day!

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Old binder guy. What a shame about the steam engine accident! 200 psi? I was under the impression they usually ran way under 100 even? What psi is normal operating for most of those old engines?

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3 hours ago, ihrondiesel said:

The power of steam is just amazing. I’ve never been around it in any form

Working fitting pipe we see it fairly often, disturbing systems on the bases up here and power houses mainly.  It is amazingly powerful.   Lots of energy 

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ihrondiesel, Steam is as awesome as you say. It has been referred to as the elastic gas. Compressed air doesn't replenish like steam does. When a drop of water boils, and turns to steam it "flash" expands between 1600 and 1700 times its size. That massive expansion is what makes a steam engine perform like it does. And that is what made that Case engine lift 17 feet into the air.

I'm sure the engine you refer to that came through Iowa was the Union Pacific Big Boy engine.

Union_Pacific_4012_Big_Boy_Steam_Locomotive.thumb.jpg.4497ec6f1fc0228bbd53c40f8ba8cb05.jpg

I'm not sure how many were built, but somewhere around a dozen. They were expressively built to pull those coal trains. This is one of those coal trains.

5ab5d7671a4a0_BigBoycoaltrainUnionPacificRailroadRR.thumb.jpg.204fa9f28f40b04d33980b8a8010cf75.jpg

iowaboy1965, That Case engine would have been certified to operate at 160 psi from the factory. Gary;)

5ab5d967f1ecf_Case1909Catalog32hp(110hp)SteamTractionEngine.thumb.jpg.7adb2a7fa09bd838edfd84ca62b8d326.jpg

This is the engine that blew up after it had been assembled from parts.

5ab5da1302308_32hpCaseJr.Christianimp.jpg.a9ea3acb8fbacdad5a8fca88eea7d8d1.jpg

My late friend Lloyd Harkins sold the boiler to a Butterfield, Minnesota group years ago. Had he known they were going to build an engine out of it, he'd have never sold it. His saddest moment was when that engine blew up. He felt he caused it. 

Lloyd Harkins who owned that boiler at his menagerie of old engine parts at Silver Star, Montana. He was at our place when we were firing engines and putting them away for the season about three years ago. Me and Lloyd...

5ab5dae03fd45_LloydHarkinsGaryYaegeratSilverCreek9-25-14.thumb.jpg.4814625d36f8ed907e6b25679b6099ad.jpg

And, Mike and Lloyd.

5ab5db29264df_MikeYaegerLloydHarkins9-25-14.thumb.jpg.99890f3c526f385637e093ee34e43447.jpg

AKWelder, you have a good grasp of the explosive, immense power of steam! Gary:mellow:

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Steam never failed to amaze me even after many years of installing the piping on many boilers from power house and industrial boilers and steam powered equipment. The last power house boiler we installed had 24" mains 1-1/2" thick coming off the boiler. We would put 1/3 of the weld in and they would x-ray that and then put another 1/3 in and another x-ray then cap it out and another x-ray. The fittings were either 5 or 10% chrome to slow down erosion and had to be pre heated to 400* before welding. That was a pain in the butt welding on a fitting that was 400+ degrees.

Wish I had took some photos of fitting we replaced due to erosion. It would erode the outside of a 90 or 45* ell and the inside of the pipe down stream from it. And taken videos of the pipe moving during startup and no one ever forgets steam hammer when the steam overruns the condensate in the bottom of the pipe and flashes off.

Was in a equipment room once that had a lot of steam powered compressors and pumps during start up when a flexatolic gasket blew, I could hear it and see where the steam was hitting wall and condensating   but could not tell where it was coming from. A fellow worker threw me a piece of 1" PVC pipe about 6ft long and I waved it up and down in front of me while I made my way to the main valve to shut it down. The gaskets were found to be defective and we had to change out all of them, over 100.

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I will respectively disagree with Mr. OldBinderGuy, as to what Union Pacific steam engine the man seen if it were only a few years ago.

The Union Pacific ran, as part of their steam program the 3985, one of the Challenger Series, which was also an articulated engine, of the 4-6-6-4 wheel arrangement, up until probably 10-12 years ago, when it was taken out of service, after 'something' happened to it while undergoing repair. (And UP has been rather secretive about just "what happened".) The most prominent rumour is that they messed up the firebox, during the coal to oil burning conversion.  (Yes, indeed, conspiracy theorists are EVERYWHERE!)

This resulted in only the 844 steam engine being available in their steam program, and led to the UP obtaining "Big Boy" #4014 being obtained and is now undergoing a full restoration, at the Union Pacific steam engine shops in Cheyenne, to make it roadworthy, hopefully by 2020.

According to the public relations department, the 3985, will then be next to enter the shop to make it roadworthy once again. 

The UP has been doing somewhat frequent updates on the restoration process, and have been posting the videos on YouTube.

Long video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyJKqbvlNhg

Short update:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdScWfMg4mg

As to the power of steam, I remember my Dad telling me about the accident that occurred at the CB&Q (The Burlington) passenger station in Omaha when a locomotive boiler blew up, because it had run low on water.

It must have been something when steam locomotives were still in use, as it is, I have only very dim memories of seeing two steam engines in freight service, going on 60 years ago, once in Dunlap, Iowa on the Chicago and Northwestern, and the other on the Burlington outside of Gretna, NE.  My memories of steam traction engines are much more clear, as the first ones I remember seeing were at shows, again, in the late 50's, or early '60's that my Dad took me to, at Mapleton, Iowa, and at Brainard, NE, and I remember him getting me a book by Floyd Clymer on steam engines at about the same time.

I have laid in bed in the staff house in Tainjin, China, and listened to the whistles of the Chinese steam engines, and I have been fortunate enough to see both the UP 844 several times, as it ran between Cheyenne and Denver on its annual Frontier Days excursions, and the Big Boy as it was being brought back (dead and in tow) to Cheyenne for restoration, as well as several tourist railroads in Colorado and Iowa.

 

My only working experience around steam was obtained when I was inside the fireboxes, preheaters, and boilers in several power plants in Illinois, Indiana, and Missouri, and the Shell refinery at Wood River, IL, when I was in Halliburton's Industrial Cleaning Division.

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It has been a very long time since the 3985 was in western Iowa so as to run down past Alton.  I have no doubt it did at some time when the UP was in the process of obtaining the Chicago Northwestern RR.   I saw it at Mason City and it was back in Council Bluffs a year or two later.  All in the late 1990s.  The last to come down that line was the 844 but it is not articulated.  I happened to be on Highway 60 and saw it south of Sheldon somewhere along the line southbound.   It stayed in Sioux City for a day or two and then went South on the UP less than a mile from my place.  I took some photos of it going through the town of Salix.  I doubt an operating Big Boy has ever been in Northwestern Iowa.  I am of the opinion that a 5 mile long coal train would have to be empties downhill, but I do not know for sure.

Ron

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Reading the Professor's (Gary) comment that steam expands at a factor of 1,600--1,700 times made me look up the expansion factor of propane for comparison.

From what I found on the internet:

As Propane vaporizes from liquid to vapor------it only expands a factor of 270 times.  (Steam would have approx 6 times expansion (explosion) factor of propane)

I have no steam experience, but this comparison dumbfounds me------am I missing something in my comparison????  (propane can cause a pretty big explosion)

DD

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Delta Dirt said:

Reading the Professor's (Gary) comment that steam expands at a factor of 1,600--1,700 times made me look up the expansion factor of propane for comparison.

From what I found on the internet:

As Propane vaporizes from liquid to vapor------it only expands a factor of 270 times.  (Steam would have approx 6 times expansion (explosion) factor of propane)

I have no steam experience, but this comparison dumbfounds me------am I missing something in my comparison????  (propane can cause a pretty big explosion)

DD

 

 

 

Well you would have the added flamability to propane where water is im gonna say basicly inert......thats my guess , tho both can cause awesome damage as we see.

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Art From DeLeon, (and Ron Cook) You're correct about that being the Challenger and not a Big Boy. My bad... However...I have no idea what locomotive was in Iowa? I was just guessing, since it was Union Pacific. I'd love to see #4014 when the crew gets it restored. I have to admire them for taking on that project.

Steam can be a pretty big explosion too, Anson. My figures are in the ball park. This steam locomotive was in 1923 at Wolf Point, Montana on the GNRY. The crew stopped the engine and all went over town to eat. They came back and the fireman checked the water level. Nobody will ever know but he may have thought the glass was full, or maybe he was lacking sense enough to turn on an injector when the glass probably looked empty? (I can tell whether it is full or empty. One can hold a pencil behind the glass at a 45 degree angle. A full glass will leave an upward angle in the water. A more level line of the pencil indicates the glass is empty.) Anyway, the engine exploded and the crown sheet blowing down made the boiler catapult, or "pole vault" ahead of the boiler. The steam escapes in a "poof," but the damage goes on for a few seconds. Three members of the crew were killed in this incident. I'm assuming it was the engineer, fireman and front brakeman? I don't know.

5ab70c5d2e694_GNRYLocomotiveexplosionatWolfPointMT19243killed.jpg.843b2ec49f50198edbe8939b28c079d1.jpg

Finney, the snapping sound of steam pipes, water hammering is an eerie sound. I never worked with the pressures you did, but I understand the condensate hitting the traps and the "music" it produces. Gary:o

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Google confirms Gary's 1,600---1,700 expansion factor of water to steam.

And propane at a factor of 270.

Must be the reason for the water injection process into jet engines and by some of the pullers for added power. 

My old crop dusting buddy had been a B-52 pilot-------and he had told me of how much water they injected on take off.  He always felt good with the throttles full forward and knowing that he was lightening his load (fuel and water)--------and eventually the big bird was gonna fly.

DD

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propane you can controll the expansion by holding the pressure [100# or less] steam not so much:rolleyes:

Mike

neat pictures guys.

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Steam is piped from power houses to heat all the buildings on the military base’s here, and on the university campus to, so we see pipe running for miles underground in a utility network here.  Great stuff.

When you start up a steam system the pipes are cold, and the steam runs in and condenses, which builds up liquid that is colder than the steam. So you crack a valve and let the system come on line slowly, you might bleed the condensate or let the steam traps work, until the line is warm and any liquids is hot and the pipe is mostly steam,. It can take awhile.    If the steam comes in to fast and you don’t let it warm up the system it will flash this built up condensate and that breaks things or worse. When you see 12 inch steel pipes moving and jumping (and I mean they are moving several feet at a time) it will get your attention. 

Then add the amount of expansion that heating steel 300* or more, things grow

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Thanks Tom! I wasn't aware about the Big Boy numbers. For that information, I owe you big time. So here are some Case gas tractors for you to identify.

5ab865c188417_Casecrossmotortractorplowingebay.thumb.jpg.8ad4566fc1dd0b221000a2c3c5371539.jpg

5ab865e2b645f_10-20CasegastractorsbeingloadedonRailroadRRflatcarsatfactorywithhoistcrane.jpg.a47b5ac1c2bd15f07df3939cdf116812.jpg

5ab86594e902c_CaseFarmImplementdealershiptractorsoutinfrontBelmondIowaMarkNelson.thumb.jpg.f1cb716d081cabd88f4175971cfdd23f.jpg

But Case also built steam engines. And this is the JI Case factory at Racine, Wisconsin, showing a few steam engines parked around their facility. Gary;)

5ab866087b4d4_JICaseSteamenginesofallsizesaroundthefactoryinRacineWisconsinimp.jpg.d189879aac45dff25224b274f46f6166.jpg

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Is this a good time add a video link to a "newer" Case diesel? I shot this video this morning of the 730 Case that my uncle bought in 1965. He was very fussy with it's maintenance and I still have the log books of every little bit of maintenance he did to it over the years. 

 

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Steam question:

If the boiler pressure is showing 150 psi;------I presume that is the same pressure being applied to the top of the piston.

Just wondering if there was any compression of the steam that caused a further increase or "rebound" effect driving the piston on its power stroke??

*******

As I see it: 

We regulate the pressure of propane (L-P gas) with a mechanical pressure regulator and with the case of a L-P powered engine------heat to vaporize the liquid, along with regulating pressure through the vaporizer (heated via passage of engine coolant).

With the early wood/coal fired Steam engines-------in effect, the engineer and fireman played the part of the "pressure regulator" with their control of the heat in the firebox and proper water levels.

By all accounts,  the "pressure regulator" most likely wasn't working properly in the explosions pictured earlier.

And-------we have a more infinite control or ability to manage the heat source being applied to the boiler with modern technology.

A lot to think about here in developing the correct "squall" tone on my "great whustle" project!!!!:o

 

DD

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Ralph, That was a great video. I remember the names Degelman and Leon for their blades. My 1256 IH had a Renn blade. It was a good blade and would really move snow. It mounted much like your Case and also hitched to the hitch! This was an IH Tractor on a Montana Farm!

5ab901eed7b8b_IH1256insnowclothes.jpg.5b6d7b104f91e57d63dead34773cb997.jpg

Anson, not to get picky with you, but "top of the piston" was actually the endof the piston, which would be a little more accurate as most cylinders were horizontal on steam engines. (I knew what you meant. I used a Baker steam engine cutaway, as that's the one that came up with the data I was putting into my search.) Once the valve admits steam into the cylinder, that nasty expansion of the steam (expanding 1600+ times) is what moves that piston to the opposite end it was admitted into, with force. If you used air pressure, it would move it, but each little bit it moved it, the pressure would be dropping rapidly, where steam is still expanding. Now, some companies used the shortest main steam line from the steam dome of the boiler, to the steam chest, where the valve admission happens. Others even insulated that line. Cooling steam loses pressure. As the valve moves by a timed motion, back and forth, steam is admitted into the opened slot into the piston. That opens the exhaust on the opposite end of the piston, then the valve moves to the opposite end before the piston gets there. That admits steam a little bit before the piston arrives, giving a cushioning effect inside the cylinder.

If you were sitting here with me describing the process, it'd be a little easier for me to explain. I'm 1/4 Italian, the reason I'm sitting here typing and waving my arms, explaining this stuff! I have no "whustles" tooting or no polka dot cap on, just this cutaway drawing. I'll try to explain further, if I didn't accomplish the job yet, my friend! Gary;)

5ab9033f12053_BakerUniflowcylindercatalogcut.thumb.jpg.80ec3ed5e32e8a6197ca228eaf7a3b27.jpg

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