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IH C200 Engine (544 Gas) Valve Seals (and 886 D360 Valve Seals)


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Sorry for the length of this but I just thought the details would be helpful in possibly answered my question.

I have my IH 544 C200 Gas cylinder head ready for re-assembly. I have installed new exhaust valve seals, New valves (in process), and new valve guides and all the valve seats have been cut with a 3 angle geometry. The new guides are the later style with the flat top on the intake and the tapered cut on the exhaust (spring side, see photo). Originally they were all the same with the tapered end geometry. I also set the valve guide height to the specification which is .75" exhaust and .92-.98" intake, see photo.

Original Valve seals: When I disassembled the head, the intake had square o-rings on the second valve stem groove (which fits in the retainer)  and umbrella seals on the guide. The exhaust had no o-ring on the second lower groove (which is much lower and wider than the intake valve, see photos) and a "Positive" type seal on the guide. This maybe how they original installed the seals prior to changing the guide configuration. Also, the older "Positive" seal does no have any wire band rings so they are not that "Positive" of a seal.I do not believe this engine has ever been apart prior to this rebuild.

New valve seals: I ordered new IH valve seals and new valve seals also came in the head gasket set but are not the same geometry, see photo. The OEM seals are  (exhaust "Positive style" 167172 which has wire hand rings and exhaust "Umbrella" 7612107).  The square o-rings were not in the kit but I had some from another kit for a 1992 Chevy 350 engine. Note: The umbrella seal from the kt has thinner material than the OEM seals and the "Positive" seals from the kit are similar to the OEM but have no wire retaining rings and are also tapered on the ID to match the exhaust guide, see photos.

Assembly: I started assembly and checked the valve groove position of the exhaust valve based on the expected valve lift of about 0.470". This places the bottom of the lower exhaust valve groove to about .070" from the top of the guide. If I used the kit "Positive" seal on the exhaust as it was original this would place the groove of the valve in the seal at maximum lift about 0.020". Checking the wear marks on the old valves this was is about right although due to assembly tolerances it could vary. This is not ideal as this could pull the seal up off the guide or possibly damage the seal. I should note that this original positive type seal is chambered on the ID to match the guide chamber and the new "Positive" style seal is not chambered and would match the new style intake guide which has a flat top (which is where it will be installed).

The OEM umbrella seal has a thick (0.23") seal area (height) and the umbrella seals that came in the kit have a thinner 0.090"seal area (height). Both have the same ID in the seal area of 0.310. As the lower exhaust valve groove is 0.130" wide by 0.330 diameter, the OEM seal would not fit in this groove but the ones from the kit do fit and have a good seal to the valve stem in the groove and some clearance in the height.

My question is, it appears I need to use the umbrella seal on the exhaust valves from the kit and position the seal in the lower valve groove, see photo. I have verified that in is this configuration the valve can lift to 0.469 or more without interference and the seal is tight in the groove. As mentioned, the OEM umbrella seal would be too wide and would only partially fit in the groove. Has anyone experienced this and what seals were used?

Intake: For the intake valve I will use the OEM positive seals (which fit fine on the guided and valve stem) and install the square o-rings although the o-ring is really not needed but will not cause any issue. Note: The ID of the OEM seals is 0.325 and the valve stem is 0.370.

 

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Yup , that is how the seals go

Always concerned me that the "thinner" umbrellas would shrink with age and fit too close to the guide -- making a pump for the oil

Did not see evidence of this , when tearing back into the tractors later tho -- so I put dozens of the overhaul kits in just like you are suggesting

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I think that the styles changed many times over the years. There was a parts / service bulletin about kits to re-work the guides to accept the "latest and greatest" at the time. 

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The third one down in your picture of 4 in a row looks correct for intake. It stops the smoke at idle and the cloud at throttle opening. When seating on guide. They need to be seated to shoulder but don't overdo it. If outer edges are pushed down to far. Center opens up like a funnel. For a few years I put umbrellas on exhausts. Stopped when it became apparent that engines so equipped usually needed exhaust valves and guides. Put the exhaust in bare. Your call.

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Thanks for all the input.

Note: I will be using the OEM intake seal which is the 4th one down in the photo as it has a flat inside surface that will seat to the new flat Intake guide. The third one down would work well on the old intake guides which have a chamfered top surface.

Also: Even though the valve guides are new and the valves are new the valve guide to valve stem clearance is on the high side of the specification mainly because the valve stem OD is on the low side of the specification. I even sent the first set of valves back and ordered new old stock valves and they still measured on the low side but slightly larger. So my clearance is around .004-.005" on the intakes and .005 to .0055 on the exhausts.  This is better than it was which was about .009". Therefore I am not realty worried about the valves sticking but I agree that other than a little start up smoke it maybe better not having exhaust seals. I actually have no intake or exhaust seals on my 886 D360 as they had no seals originally.

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Yup , little plastic mini umbrella seal on the rotator cap on the 300 - 400 series engines -- 1342827C1

they were replaceable , but some difficult to put in place , since the plastic was brittle

Usually just put a whole set of rotators  on when I had an engine down in the shop -- the balls and springs would wear pockets in the metal parts

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16 hours ago, snoshoe said:

Both pictures of the number 4 seal are from the top. I can't see profile. If it is what I think it is. It is definitely not oem. Not saying it will not work just fine.

Here is a photo on the "positive" seal I used for the Intake valves (in the bag and in the other photos with the bands). I ordered it from All Stats Ag Parts by the OEM part number 535166R1. You are correct in that the one with the chambered ID/OD is the OEM part. The one I used with the bands are used in automotive applications and is also sold by other companies by the OEM IH part number. Since the new guides are flat on the top vs chamfered I used the ones with the bands as they are flat on the inside vs chamfered.

All good information.

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19 hours ago, HydroTek said:

Yup , little plastic mini umbrella seal on the rotator cap on the 300 - 400 series engines -- 1342827C1

they were replaceable , but some difficult to put in place , since the plastic was brittle

Usually just put a whole set of rotators  on when I had an engine down in the shop -- the balls and springs would wear pockets in the metal parts

Not to change the subject but I have a old post on this site regarding my 886 D360 using some oil after rebuild and the discussion around the valve seals "Rebuilt 886 D360 using Oil". The small plastic seals/deflectors were not in my retainers when I took the engine apart and could not fit them in. I still have them in a bag marked "Not needed". Maybe if they would fit they may help some to keep oil from the stem but they are not a typical valve seal. I do not use the tractor much and is only used for round balling so its not used hard. It still uses some oil but not as much as it did after rebuild. I also switched to using 15w-40w Rotella T4 oil which also helped.

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Not all of the rotators were fitted with the seals -- the early models did not have them

All replacement rotators , and later models did have the seals tho

Usually by the time one of those engines needed an "overhaul" , the rotators were worn enough to get replaced also

overhaul in quotes because that word gets thrown around a lot

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I'm pretty sure they fit. The problem is they are tapered and you are pushing the big end of the taper on the seal into the small end of the taper in the rotator. Never had to much trouble putting new ones in. If they've been on the shelf to long. They could be to brittle.

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23 hours ago, HydroTek said:

Not all of the rotators were fitted with the seals -- the early models did not have them

All replacement rotators , and later models did have the seals tho

Usually by the time one of those engines needed an "overhaul" , the rotators were worn enough to get replaced also

overhaul in quotes because that word gets thrown around a lot

My 886 D360 engine S/N is 14543. From what I can find it is an early s/n that may not have had the seals. I found a Retainer assembly part number 1811581C91 or 92 that is listed for the DT360 prior to S/N 72,706. Therefore these may fit my D360 engine. It appears the retainers are different by the s/n break and why I could not fit the plastic seals in my retainers. It would not be too difficult to change them on the engine now but I am not sure of the real value. I have chainged a fair amount of valve seals with the head on an engine. Kind of a pain but doable.

If anyone know if this retainer would fit on my engine s/n please let me know.

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  • Buick455GS changed the title to IH C200 Engine (544 Gas) Valve Seals (and 886 D360 Valve Seals)

The rotators would have too large of hole for the seal -- the seal will flop around

that seal fits tight in the hole on the rotator and snaps into place -- the seal end is slightly belled on the small end

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