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3588/3788 Tranmisions


kshayguy

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I'm looking at a couple of Internation 3588/3788 tractors.  I've owned a 1086 and am very familiar with the 16 speed L/H 1-4 transmission.  The 3788 & 6788 have the L/H 1-3 12 speed transmission & the 3388/3588/6388/6588 all have the 16-speed L/H 1-4 transmission.  I've never known anyone who has operated the 12-speed.  I pulled up the speeds for each on tractordata.com and they are different.

Here's my question.  I'll be using this tractor from some tillage, round baling, planting and maybe on a wheel rake from time to time.  Should I stay away from the 12-speed and it's limited ratio?  

16 Speed MPH

12 Speed MPH
1.8  
  2.3
2.1  
  2.6
2.9  
3.3  
  3.6
4.2 4.2
4.9 4.9
5.0  
5.5  
  5.7
6.4 6.9
7.5  
  8.1
10.0  
  11.1
11.7  
  13.0
14.7  
  15.1
17.2  
17.5 17.7
20.4  

  

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Obviously the more speeds you have the better but since these tractors are over 40 years old the relative condition of each will weigh heavily on your choice. The 3 speed transmission in the 37/67 tractor is definitely a mysterious if not nonsensical X-File one off and therefore spare parts will be difficult to locate and likely need to be manufactured if something really bad happens. That said, we had a 3788 around here that performed flawlessly over a number of years but the fuel pump wasn't cranked to the moon like was done to many of them against direct recommendations from the manufacturer. Cranked up 35/65 tractors stood the abuse better because they actually had heavier gears (hence the X-Files reference) but that again was against the intent and instruction of Harvester when the tractor was introduced as a row crop 4WD. IH learned quickly that guys failed to heed their decree yet blamed the company for subsequent and inevitable failure. Therefore the upgraded 72/7488 that would stand more abuse were being envisioned and designed quite literally at the same time as the 30/60 Series since it all happened concurrent with the 2WD tractor lines.

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Thanks Drysleeves.  Can I ask what used your 3788 on and if you ever found yourself searching for a better gear?

I think for tillage, I could leave with the 12-speed gear selection (assuming the rest of the tractor is pretty clean/sound).  When round baling, it would be nice to have a few more hear options based on different hay conditions.  Don't really want to feather the throttle a whole lot when running the PTO.

Raking and planting...it would be easy to feather the throttle as need to slow down or speed up as field conditions change.  

 

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1 minute ago, kshayguy said:

Thanks Drysleeves.  Can I ask what used your 3788 on and if you ever found yourself searching for a better gear?

I think for tillage, I could leave with the 12-speed gear selection (assuming the rest of the tractor is pretty clean/sound).  When round baling, it would be nice to have a few more hear options based on different hay conditions.  Don't really want to feather the throttle a whole lot when running the PTO.

Raking and planting...it would be easy to feather the throttle as need to slow down or speed up as field conditions change.  

 

During most heavy tillage, disk, plow, etc. third low was sufficient as far as speed. Tractor had the bone stock 170 hp and some days were better than others with hp but that's typical for air temps, humidity, barometric pressure. That tractor would drag a 4-500 bushel single axle grain cart through anything, and I mean anything. More speeds would be better for light work but again you're talking about some old tractors so it's condition dependent.

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Some also depends on tire sizes. I have one of each 33,35,37. Can not say that missing the one gear has ever been noticed. Most tillage work on this place is done in L3 or L4 with the smaller tractors and L3 with the 37. Often I can do no more with the 35 over the 33 due to lack of traction on the 35. 23.1x30 on the 33 and 18.4x38 on the 35.

As said condition of tractor would be more important to me than number of gears. 

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13 minutes ago, IHC_1470 said:

Some also depends on tire sizes. I have one of each 33,35,37. Can not say that missing the one gear has ever been noticed. Most tillage work on this place is done in L3 or L4 with the smaller tractors and L3 with the 37. Often I can do no more with the 35 over the 33 due to lack of traction on the 35. 23.1x30 on the 33 and 18.4x38 on the 35.

As said condition of tractor would be more important to me than number of gears. 

Very helpful information!

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i don't know how those ratio's compare to a 1586, but we had customers with 1586's that complained about the lack of correct tillage speed's. I have never run one so as Judge Judy would say "that's hear say"

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12 minutes ago, cedar farm said:

i don't know how those ratio's compare to a 1586, but we had customers with 1586's that complained about the lack of correct tillage speed's. I have never run one so as Judge Judy would say "that's hear say"

Hence the gear short without the planetary system 37/67 mystery. The reasoning for the 15's was there just wasn't room in the box for all the required steel in a planetary final drive system. Other than 6788 #8801 (at least as far as we know) none of the 7's had planetary final drives and in fact had a de facto weaker system that was a gear short relative to it's sisters. Make sense not this does but turns out I never got the memo.....

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36 minutes ago, Drysleeves said:

Hence the gear short without the planetary system 37/67 mystery. The reasoning for the 15's was there just wasn't room in the box for all the required steel in a planetary final drive system. Other than 6788 #8801 (at least as far as we know) none of the 7's had planetary final drives and in fact had a de facto weaker system that was a gear short relative to it's sisters. Make sense not this does but turns out I never got the memo.....

So the 3788 & 6788 (12-speeds) had a weaker system then the 16-speed units?

 

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1 hour ago, cedar farm said:

i don't know how those ratio's compare to a 1586, but we had customers with 1586's that complained about the lack of correct tillage speed's. I have never run one so as Judge Judy would say "that's hear say"

The 1586 does have a slightly different ratio

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1 minute ago, kshayguy said:

So the 3788 & 6788 (12-speeds) had a weaker system then the 16-speed units?

 

Gears were heavier in the 35/65. Over time it can be a concern, especially if the owner(s) invaded the fuel pump and started tickling against better judgement and company proscription. The worst part is they blamed the product but when the average 5 could stand more than the supposedly more capable 7 then it's remains an unexplained situation. Those tractors lasted a long time if you didn't abuse them. Again, we had very few problems but the ponies were stock.

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I have baled and raked with quite a number of different tractors.  Also a variety of baler types and rake types. What transmission works the best is pretty situational. Small and large square balers need pretty close spaced gear ratios to maximize the output of the baler.  Their capacity has a pretty definite limit. Round balers are more flexible that way.  

Rakes are not nearly as fussy about the close ratio. What matters more there is the ability to greatly vary the ground speed relatively easily. 

Of all the tractor transmissions I’ve run, I would place the CIH partial powershift 16 speed at the top of the list. Ratios are reasonably close and pretty evenly spaced. They have the ability to vary the speed greatly, quickly, and easily. Especially with a foot throttle. 
The AGCO 32 speed I run offers no advantage over the CIH 16 speed whatsoever. In fact I place it behind the 16 speed as it is considerably more cumbersome, and of all dumb things the powershift gear ratios are if anything farther apart than those of the CIH.
The full powershift (17 speed) that I had for a few years was clumsier than the partial powershifts.

The IH 16 speed (HI/LO/TA x 4) is okay for steady speed use like raking, provided the raking speeds are relatively slow;  they get kind of frustrating if there is a demand for more speed.  I don’t really like the IH 16 speed in front of a wheel rake. Not mine anyway.  Really frustrating in front of a big square baler in highly variable crop. 
The old IH 10 speed (5 x TA) is ok at low speeds, pretty frustrating at raking speeds. 
I would imagine that the IH 12 speed would be pretty similar the 16 speed as it pertains to haying. I thought the top speed was slower on those so the individual gear ratios weren’t as far apart as one should initially think.

My personal opinion is that IVT would be the ideal haying transmission but that is me bench racing at this point. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Drysleeves said:

Hence the gear short without the planetary system 37/67 mystery. The reasoning for the 15's was there just wasn't room in the box for all the required steel in a planetary final drive system. Other than 6788 #8801 (at least as far as we know) none of the 7's had planetary final drives and in fact had a de facto weaker system that was a gear short relative to it's sisters. Make sense not this does but turns out I never got the memo.....

The speed transmission is nowhere near the differential and final drives on these tractors. There's a range transmission in between and that for all intents and purposes is the same as what you'd get on a 1486. Apparently the range section is plenty strong enough to handle the power, but the speed transmission needed the extra strength.

I was told once that the reason the 3788 and 6788 do not have planetary finals, is because the power is split 50/50 between front and rear axles. The traditional bull gear finals from the 1486 were plenty strong for the 3788. They may only be 986 finals, as according to the axle chart even the 3788 still has a 3-1/4" axle.

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i wouldn't want to do any hay work without a hydro tractor. the three speed is a constant mesh transmission there isn't room for four speeds without making the speed transmission longer.

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Hay work = Hydro or IVT.

Even my 4386 4x4 (240 gross engine HP, would probably be about 180 PTO) - had the 986 rear ends and 3 1/4" axles.   I'd say 75% probably had the screw cranked.   No significant problems I heard of with the rear ends on those tractors.   But they did not have the speed or range sections, just the differential and bull gears.

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We have a 1586 and I am not impressed with the lack of difference and too much difference at the same time with that transmission.  It good for tillage not for rowcrop or having. Just my opinion. 

Ultimate tranny for anything hay related is a cvt/ivt. We just bought two hydros for haying next year, thinking they should be just as handy as cvt, but way cheaper

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16 hours ago, Jeff-C-IL said:

Hay work = Hydro or IVT.

Even my 4386 4x4 (240 gross engine HP, would probably be about 180 PTO) - had the 986 rear ends and 3 1/4" axles.   I'd say 75% probably had the screw cranked.   No significant problems I heard of with the rear ends on those tractors.   But they did not have the speed or range sections, just the differential and bull gears.

Only one new 4366 that I knew of in this area. They had it cranked pulling a 10-18 flex beam plow and blew the final drives in very short order. My dad said they plowed a lot at night and you could see the fire coming out the stack. They traded it for a 4586 when they came out. Then traded that for a 4786. 

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Pulling a 10-18????   Ummm - that tractor would have been more of a 6-7 plow tractor.    Didn't have that many more actual ponies that a 1586, by the time you figured in the extra drivetrain losses etc.   I pulled essentially the same implements I pulled with a 1486, just a little easier & faster.   Not all that much different.....maybe 6 mph instead of 5.

They must have had that thing cranked north of 300hp......no wonder they blew the drives!

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57 minutes ago, Jeff-C-IL said:

Pulling a 10-18????   Ummm - that tractor would have been more of a 6-7 plow tractor.    Didn't have that many more actual ponies that a 1586, by the time you figured in the extra drivetrain losses etc.   I pulled essentially the same implements I pulled with a 1486, just a little easier & faster.   Not all that much different.....maybe 6 mph instead of 5.

They must have had that thing cranked north of 300hp......no wonder they blew the drives!

Yes, it would have been terribly overloaded. Whatever it was putting out, I would bet money the IH dealer helped them get it there. I think in general, that was common. But, I also think more often than not it also ended up making them look bad from early failures. My dad borrowed their new 4586 to disk one year and he said he couldn’t believe the power it had. He said he couldn’t even tell he was pulling the 32’ disk. 

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4568s/4586s still had the bull gear final drives, and they were rated 300 engine hp. Wasn't until the 4786 arrived that IH used the planetary final drives like the 1566/86 tractors in the Steiger-built 4wds. 

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