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Old pickup insanity


chevenstein

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But, speaking of high prices on old trucks. A guy I work with just bought an 02 Silverado 2500HD xcab 4x4 8.1 6 speed manual with 15K original miles for $26,000. The day after he told me about it I saw another one just like it with 35K miles listed for $49,000. The truck he bought is literally in brand new condition, it's never been stored outside

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59 minutes ago, Steve C. said:

I see lots of new/nearly new pickups, Yukons, etc. here.  Very few are worked hard if at all.  I'm sure most are mainly intended to impress peers.

My impression is "show me the title".  Then I may be impressed.

A lot of the young moms around here are driving brand new Suburbans or Escalades too. Once in a great while you see a Navigator. How they afford that payment plus a mortgage plus childcare I'll never know. I guess I got into the wrong line of work. My parents drove an Aries when I was a kid. Now that's a sexy car!

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2 hours ago, FoxrunFarms02 said:

I think there's a group of us who want a basic truck to do truck things and don't want the fancy gadgets, computers touch screens or want heated seats..........crazy how truck commercials even changed. A truck pulling log trailers, or going up a pile of rocks with the competitor truck across the bed, to a group of businesses guys in flip flops watching an empty hand tool toolbox get dropped 3 ft into a truck bed. I need a different truck real soon and want to upgrade to a 3/4 ton......I'd just keep this current truck running if I didn't want to upgrade. No way will I or can I spend 80k on a truck.  I'm either going to look for a fleet truck or look for a truck from my youth and rather put money into that and legit parts than computer chips. Some guys are like us too. Maybe that truck has a memory or special meaning or worth something with low production. I'm sure people think we're crazy......" why do you collect tractor/paid so much for something from 1950"

Not sure where you're at or brand preference but around here it's not even worth trying to buy an old Chevy anymore. Prices are through the roof. Not many old Dodges left around here. The only thing somewhat reasonable is an old Ford. Fine with me I guess.

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OP s  price is laughable as here that would get you kicking rights on a S 1xxx   $25K FIRM !! ,dont offend me, low miles gas ran when parked 20 yrs ago.

$26K = 85'-91   350km rust trap  runs great dont have time to fix water in oil, trans in bed,used every day dont need to sell ,just putting out there ,trade even for '20 > 4x diesel low mile  ! no junk

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24 minutes ago, melvinapple said:

Not sure where you're at or brand preference but around here it's not even worth trying to buy an old Chevy anymore. Prices are through the roof. Not many old Dodges left around here. The only thing somewhat reasonable is an old Ford. Fine with me I guess.

I grew up in a dodge family, had a couple myself, my dad's work trucks were all power strokes, and now have a Chevy I've been very happy with. Even at 200k and the typical Chevy rust spots I'm sure my truck is still worth something. In my area for fleet trucks you have a choice between a Co op with Chevy ext cab 2500 work trucks or a pipeline with crew cab f250's. The pipeline has better maintenance records on their stuff so more leaning towards the ford's.

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3 hours ago, Rick G. said:

And personally, I find the idea of a small displacement 4 cylinder Turbo in a full size Chevy Silverado laughable. Let's see how durable that will be down the road.

I run 30 lbs of boost into one of the car line GM Ecotecs, which is the same engine family as the truck motors,  with no problems 

Been doing so for 40k on a motor that already had 120K on it, puts out 320 RWHP out of 2.0 liters 

It certainly wouldn't be my choice for a truck I was going to work but for in the city or commuter use it will be fine.

 

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1 hour ago, jeeper61 said:

I run 30 lbs of boost into one of the car line GM Ecotecs, which is the same engine family as the truck motors,  with no problems 

Been doing so for 40k on a motor that already had 120K on it, puts out 320 RWHP out of 2.0 liters 

It certainly wouldn't be my choice for a truck I was going to work but for in the city or commuter use it will be fine.

 

Would you please post the dyno sheet for that 320 HP 2 ltr engine and the conditions where it was run!

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I got very lucky. I got my new truck in feb of 2020. The week after I got it ford factories shut down for I think 6 weeks. When they opened back up, supply and demand drove prices up. I’m good for a while but with all the electronics on them now and me being in the salt belt, I doubt it will be dependable past 12 years. I hope prices are reasonable by then, but I doubt that too. 

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4 hours ago, searcyfarms said:

Due to govt mandates and requirement there will never be a simple vehicle produced again - so many things hv to be on them now 

I vaguely remember something about a law recently that allowed a small (300?) number of replicas of an older vehicle to be produced without complying with all of the modern BS.  I remember seeing that for six figures you could buy a new replica of a classic DeLorian or similar car.

Found it: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35297574/replica-delorean-nhtsa-rules/

I think this sort of thing is how we'll get back to something I would buy new.  Maybe the law gets expanded and something like a brand new bullnose F250 or square body K20 could be closer to reality.  Given the responses in this thread, such a thing would be almost reasonable at $50k (and the manufacturer would probably make a decent margin at that price point).

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2 hours ago, oleman said:

Would you please post the dyno sheet for that 320 HP 2 ltr engine and the conditions where it was run!

The engine LNF 2.0 in 07 was rated at 260HP 260TQ and at that time was highest output engine per cubic inch GM ever made.

Being a direct injection motor the boost can turned up to what the head gasket will take since there is no fear of detonation.  

Here is the last actual run on my car on the dyno at 21lbs.

Since then all turbo piping and intercooler has been changed to aftermarket high-flow, the boost has been turned up to 28 lbs and high-flow exhaust system has been added 

I say 320ish on the HP but it is likely more

ZZP the tuner/racers and Ecotec HP parts supplier has run one with like mods @ 367 whp and 445 wtq with stock turbo 

ZZPDynotune.thumb.jpg.4fe514bbbfc6010aaf8f6c1fb3de7376.jpg

Here is the list of cars and results they have gotten 

image.thumb.png.0e9fbf53fe4776aefc3d829aafffee02.png

 

 

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8 hours ago, 5088 said:

Man we just did this about 15 years ago.  Crazy how short people's memories are.

I'd like to get a new pickup myself, but these prices are insane.  I work at a Jeep dealer.  We have Jeep COMPASS's that sticker over 40k.  The Compass is a go cart with a Jeep emblem on the front.

The price on the Compass is just crazy. They START at $30K. The 2018 Ram 2500 Cummins I bought new I got for $45K, after rebates and trade. The Compass is not worth $30-40K, in my opinion. 

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7 hours ago, yellowrosefarm said:

But, speaking of high prices on old trucks. A guy I work with just bought an 02 Silverado 2500HD xcab 4x4 8.1 6 speed manual with 15K original miles for $26,000. The day after he told me about it I saw another one just like it with 35K miles listed for $49,000. The truck he bought is literally in brand new condition, it's never been stored outside

Wish I was in a position to make him a profit lol to bad it's not an Allison though.

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8 hours ago, melvinapple said:

A lot of the young moms around here are driving brand new Suburbans or Escalades too. Once in a great while you see a Navigator. How they afford that payment plus a mortgage plus childcare I'll never know. I guess I got into the wrong line of work. My parents drove an Aries when I was a kid. Now that's a sexy car!

I bet those are leases. I bet a lot of these high priced vehicles are out on leases. You have to put down a hefty "down payment," and then you have monthly lease payments. To me it's like renting. You have nothing to show for your money spent at the end of the lease. You can choose to buy the vehicle at the end of the lease. I'm not sure how great a deal that is.

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12 hours ago, chevenstein said:

I can't stand new cars/trucks and refuse to drive an automatic, so I can appreciate spending a lot of money on a 20+ year old vehicle that's in nice shape and have done so myself, but this auction that just closed nearby takes it to a whole new level.  I paid $11,500 in 2018 for a crew cab F250 with the six speed manual and a V10 and 72K on the clock that had never been driven in the winter (love that truck), but twice that for an older truck with more miles??!?  Insanity.

 

 

Screenshot at 2023-11-18 07-03-21.png

Did you bid on any of the IH 2 point equipment or the super C?  I kind of wanted the 5' converted bush hog, but not enough to keep bidding 🙃

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1 hour ago, Rick G. said:

I bet those are leases. I bet a lot of these high priced vehicles are out on leases. You have to put down a hefty "down payment," and then you have monthly lease payments. To me it's like renting. You have nothing to show for your money spent at the end of the lease. You can choose to buy the vehicle at the end of the lease. I'm not sure how great a deal that is.

I'm sure you're right. I only ever buy vehicles I can afford to pay outright in cash. I've never had anything fancy but it's one less payment to worry about.

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We just replaced our 2014 explorer with 175k miles this summer with a 2023 Expedition Max.  With 5 kids that are getting bigger, ages 13 to 6, the Explorer was just too tight with minimal cargo room. We bought it new and it has been pretty darn good to us. We kept it as the daily driver until the oldest turns 16 in 2 years.  We tried to find a used one with 8 passenger seating and the  aluminum body, 18 or newer, and it was impossible or impractical based on mileage and price. New one was 4 points cheaper on interest also.  I am not a fan of the rusted Gm products in that category and we needed 8 passenger seating, someone's friend is always going with us somewhere and it needed to pull the 30' camper also.  We are pleasant surprised at the 18.7 fuel economy and it is a very nice vehicle without being loaded with ridiculousness. We were into it for just under $75, sadly.  But we bought 3 Explorers new and usually run them for 10 years and have very few problems, getting rid of them around 150k or more and have always done ok. 

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2 hours ago, yellowrosefarm said:

Did you bid on any of the IH 2 point equipment or the super C?  I kind of wanted the 5' converted bush hog, but not enough to keep bidding 🙃

I stopped messing with the 2 point stuff when I moved down here, so no but I'm kind of surprised that the super C didn't bring more.  

 

For those who want to see what we're talking about: https://bid.enlistedauctions.com/ui/auctions/108816/13954641

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3 hours ago, JaredT said:

We just replaced our 2014 explorer with 175k miles this summer with a 2023 Expedition Max.  With 5 kids that are getting bigger, ages 13 to 6, the Explorer was just too tight with minimal cargo room. We bought it new and it has been pretty darn good to us. We kept it as the daily driver until the oldest turns 16 in 2 years.  We tried to find a used one with 8 passenger seating and the  aluminum body, 18 or newer, and it was impossible or impractical based on mileage and price. New one was 4 points cheaper on interest also.  I am not a fan of the rusted Gm products in that category and we needed 8 passenger seating, someone's friend is always going with us somewhere and it needed to pull the 30' camper also.  We are pleasant surprised at the 18.7 fuel economy and it is a very nice vehicle without being loaded with ridiculousness. We were into it for just under $75, sadly.  But we bought 3 Explorers new and usually run them for 10 years and have very few problems, getting rid of them around 150k or more and have always done ok. 

We were in the same boat and went.the express passenger van route.  Super low mile 2016 with 10,000 miles for 30k.  My wife was unsure about it but now it's the only.way to go.  No dumb BS extras, tons of power and enough room to travel and never worry about room or weight.  

Just gotta get past the stigma of the creeper free candy van lol

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5 minutes ago, Cdfarabaugh said:

I've been hearing that for 20 years........and still waiting

We may hear it for another 20 years, but I'll be really surprised if we do.

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I'll just keep driving my 99 GMC Sierra 2500 ext cab 4x4 when I  need a pickup. Ended up with it after my son bought it for $900, did a little work on it and lost interest. It has just over 200k on it. He wanted my 94 Silverado ext cab 4x4 with a near new engine and electrical problems that I  was sick of dealing with so we traded. Daily driver Santa Fe has 284,xxx miles on it and still runs good. If it gives up I have a spare with under 200k. Not spending 50 to 100k+ on anything!

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37 minutes ago, Cdfarabaugh said:

We were in the same boat and went.the express passenger van route.  Super low mile 2016 with 10,000 miles for 30k.  My wife was unsure about it but now it's the only.way to go.  No dumb BS extras, tons of power and enough room to travel and never worry about room or weight.  

Just gotta get past the stigma of the creeper free candy van lol

My wife needs 4x4 for getting to school, teacher at rural school, snow days aren't common. 

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I did my automotive mechanic apprenticeship at a GM dealer from 2005-2008, the 4 8 week trade school sessions were specific to the GM apprentices, called ASEP (Automotive Service Education Program).  If you did your apprenticeship anywhere else you were in the "General" program with 3 8 week sessions.  The GM program was longer because they taught GM technical courses along with the provincially mandated training needed to obtain a mechanic's license in Ontario.

One of our teachers told us that half the price of a new car is the warranty.  Say in 2007 a new Chev Impala LT had a MSRP of $32000 CAD, that car cost GM about $8000 to produce, they have to double that to warranty it, plus a percentage to have some profit, so a dealer's cost is $18-20000ish, the dealer has to almost double their minimum profit margin to accommodate the warranty as well.  There can be a lot of cost to the dealer for a warranty repair that GM doesn't cover.  If the vehicle doesn't give much trouble there is some good money to be made.  In my time at the GM dealer the 3.1/3.4 V6 was in it's heyday, replacing intake and head gaskets was a common job.  The retail on the parts to do both head gaskets on a 3.4 was about 5-800 and 12 hours at 80 an hour, say that cost GM 1000-1500 with towing and courtesy car for a warranty claim.  Even if GM had to do both head gaskets on a 2005 Venture van twice, both front wheel bearings and a transmission, they wouldn't be loosing, and that much warranty work would be uncommon.  At that time the biggest/most expensive common warranty jobs were the 3.1/3.4 head gaskets, transmissions in half tons and transmissions in bigger sedans and minivans.  Those transmissions were all 4 speed automatics, not 6-10 speeds of today.  A retail price of $3000 for the complete overhaul and installation of the transmission was on the high side 15 years ago

A the dealer cost of that time (2005-2008) safe to say GM accounted for $6000-10000 of warranty work per vehicle.  With labour and parts cost of the time the most problematic vehicle's repairs would not come close to that number.  Modern vehicles with direct injection turbo charged gasoline engines and 6 plus speed transmissions have way more expensive parts, and are usually more labour intensive to repair.  I put a turbocharger on a 2017 Escape, the turbo was $2300 and not any fun to do, really tight, whole job was around $4000. I haven't done one but I hear stories of the GM 6 speed transmission in say a 2017 1500 truck is about $6000 for a GM SRTA reman plus labour, and the TCM is internal and needs to be programmed after, the fluid is also $15-20 a quart vs $5-10.

The point I'm justifying is that newer vehicles have parts that are very expensive and require more labour to replace, also more prone to failure under warranty than older models.  If half the cost of the vehicle is the warranty and potential warranty repair cost has quadrupled, that must contribute to the cost of the vehicle considerably

In 2012 I bought a 2009 Impala LS with 30000km for $12000, that car had an MSRP of about $28000 new.  At that time sedans weren't in favour vs SUVs and old rental cars like my wife's Impala were a deal.  When she was looking to replace the Impala in 2021/2022 she wanted a newer Impala but sedans were not as plentiful and seemed to carry a premium for those who wanted them.  She started looking into Toyota because they still had the Camry, it was a little pricy at around $38000, started leaning toward a RAV4. Similar story as other's, a used 2019 with about 70-80000km was $27-29000, new 2022 was $30950.  Salesman said that someone would take the used one because they could get it sooner than waiting 1-6 months for new.  She ordered hers in February and got it in April.  Hers is the base model LE, the next step up XLE came with a power driver's seat, sunroof and pushbutton start and a little more but was 8000 more MSRP and 10000 more all in, if you got the fanciest one it was that much more again.  The RAV4 LE she got was the best price and vehicle she could of got at that time in my opinion.  I have appreciation for it's basic features, the Toyota has steel wheels and hubcaps, 225/65R17 tires-the same size as many Dodge Caravans really popular and affordable size, a keyed ignition, a gearshift that connects to the transmission with a cable, manually operated seats, it's relatively plain for the time it was made, has a fancy screen and heated seats, auto headlights, radar cruise, blind spot detection, and other modern gizmos.  Maybe for similar money we could of got a Hyundai with fancier wheels, auto start and leather but we are in it for the long run, the Hyundai wouldn't age as well.  GM, Ford or Chrysler were all more luxurious and cost similar to the RAV4 XLE, if we were spending that much we would still go with the RAV4 but that cost of ~$40000 MSRP/~$50000 taxes and financing total price didn't make sense vs ~$10000 and 18 months less payments, that's a lot of money more just for a couple more gizmos

I think Melissa's Toyota story gives credit to my assumption that one of the factors in high vehicle prices is the cost of the warranty, even with Toyota reliability they next model up costs almost 30% more just for some power options

Truck prices are crazy, trucks nowadays are much fancier than even 10-15 years ago.  Most trucks made in the last few years are 4 door, optioned like a Cadillac, 20 inch wheels, dual exhaust, etc.  Even bare bones work trucks have bluetooth radios, AC, locking differentials, 4x4 usually.  Not saying that's a bad thing, new pickup trucks are crazy capable, the loads that many modern 3/4 and one tons pull are similar to what tandem dump trucks like an International 4900 with a 466 pulled in the 90s and the modern pickups do it at a higher speed.  An 80s bare bones 3/4 ton fleet truck most likely would be 2wd, no AC, open diff, small V8 like 318/350/351, maybe a 300 or 292 I6, no overdrive trans, a pretty awesome machine I think, maybe all you really need.  A modern pickup is substantially more machine hands down.  I'm not a fan of modern trucks but aside from their electronic complexities they are more capable than any old one.  Say a 2017 GMC 2500HD has better brakes and suspension that will last longer and perform better than any previous design, seen lots of those trucks go 140000km on the original brakes, the 2001-2010 HD would go 70000km max.  I have a customer with a 2016 or 2017 3500HD with almost 400000km, he has had some DEF issues that cost about $4000 but otherwise nothing major, lots of tires and oil changes, I replaced the original rotors at 297000km in 2022.  I'm not sure how Tom's 3500HD pencils out, probably cost him $70-80000 new and average $4000 a year in maintenance, has pulled a gooseneck like a single axle tractor, for 70000km a year, the convenience and speed of the pickup has to be worth something compared to having a heavy truck and pickup.  His favourite old truck is a mid to late 90's 6.5L Chev/GMC, he has a 96 C2500 6.5L reg cab long box that his employees drive the most but he still likes using it too.  Any old 6.5 or 5.9 Cummins, 7.3 powerstroke would never come close to what the 2017 3500HD could do.  The price of modern trucks is high for sure, the performance they have when they work can't be denied or matched by any other, whether that performance is necessary or worth the money is debatable

I feel like truck prices were relatively stable for 20 years from the late 80s until the early 2010s.  A guy I know bought a new 91 C1500 ext cab short box for $25000, my Dad bought a new 99 Ram 1500 2wd ext cab short box for $30000, it was a discounted post recession price but I remember doing a PDI on a 2008 Chev C1500 ext cab short box window sticker was $31000

 

 

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