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Speed Disc/Speed Tiller/High Speed Disc - What's the skinny on them?


Mountain Heritage

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It is common in our area to plant a "double stack" variety which is the opposite of what you're saying. Good genetics for shell corn yet if weather or a late planting affects the cob growth, it still has volume in stalks for silage. We had 60 acres this year that had staggered emergence so we were talking with a nearby dairy about selling it off for feed. Favorable fall weather helped it mature enough we hung onto it for grain. It does slow the combine a bit grinding all the extra stalk but it's organic matter to return to the soil. And it's cheap insurance that we can get some income out of a poor shell corn crop.

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I go at a good angle to the rows with the chisel plow, 10 degrees maybe, you can see it in my pic. then i go at about half the original angle in the spring with the field cultivator. Seams to help with plugging less vs going with the rows. 

Then I get really OCD and try to go at the opposite 10 degree angle next year to help avoid ridges.

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Angle with field cultivator is a must if you still use markers......especially if you work ground in evening and are planting at night.   When the top doesn't dry off it's hard to pick out the marker mark from field cultivator harrow marks.

10 deg angle fixes that problem quick!

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5 hours ago, Mountain Heritage said:

Clarification please....

Disc chisel, you're talking like the Glenco unit posted above or a White 445 unit that has the row of straight discs in the front and then twisted shovels on HD shanks in the rear - correct?

Or you suggesting something like these:

Sunflower 4411-05 Disc Ripper BigIron Auctions - but in proportion to the tractor being used of course.

 

Dumb question...

On stalks that have been chopped with head or chopper - best way to work them is with the rows (or what used to be a row) or cross ways/diagonal?

Any difference with NON chopped stalks for the direction of travel.

I'm talking from stand point of what people have found where it plugs the least and stalks flow through best and don't bunch up.  I'm assuming with rows or slight angle, but going to ask anyways.

Yes like a Glencoe Soil Saver or some variation. Krause, Sunflower, Landoll all make good chisel plows. 
Straight hydraulic raised coulters in front 4” twisted chisels behind. 9 shank would probably be about right for 5288

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5 hours ago, Mountain Heritage said:

Clarification please....

Disc chisel, you're talking like the Glenco unit posted above or a White 445 unit that has the row of straight discs in the front and then twisted shovels on HD shanks in the rear - correct?

Or you suggesting something like these:

Sunflower 4411-05 Disc Ripper BigIron Auctions - but in proportion to the tractor being used of course.

 

Dumb question...

On stalks that have been chopped with head or chopper - best way to work them is with the rows (or what used to be a row) or cross ways/diagonal?

Any difference with NON chopped stalks for the direction of travel.

I'm talking from stand point of what people have found where it plugs the least and stalks flow through best and don't bunch up.  I'm assuming with rows or slight angle, but going to ask anyways.

Yes like a Glencoe Soil Saver or some variation. Krause, Sunflower, Landoll all make good chisel plows. 
Straight hydraulic raised coulters in front 4” twisted chisels behind. 9 shank would probably be about right for 5288

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10 hours ago, nate said:

How much horsepower do you have to put in front?   That may narrow down your options

Have the MTX120 McCormick 4wd.  It has more pulling power than my 3688 had.

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2 hours ago, Gearclash said:

Trade your old flail shredder for  a chopping corn head.  The cut is different and the chopping corn head will succeed in promoting decomposition much better than the shredder. 

Doesn't the chopping heads use a decent amount of fuel/hp to run?  

Sad part, there really isn't anything wrong with our head or the chopper.  Especially now that the chopper has complete new set of knives on it.  I'd be scared to see what a chopping head is even worth to buy! 😮

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6 hours ago, ChrisNY said:

Yes like a Glencoe Soil Saver or some variation. Krause, Sunflower, Landoll all make good chisel plows. 
Straight hydraulic raised coulters in front 4” twisted chisels behind. 9 shank would probably be about right for 5288

I'd be throwing it behind an MTX120 McCormick.  What you running the chisels at about 6 to 8 inches deep?  Or you guys running them deeper?

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What is the average hp required to pull a disc chisel in the fall, semi wet ground (clay/loam) through corn stalks?  I say semi wet ground cause it always seems to be wet in the fall by the time tillage comes up after corn.  We never seem to luck out and get 15* weather and have that Indian Summer show its face.  Heck, we seem to get to see Old Man Winter actually with some of the white stuff scattered on the ground!

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Soil will make the difference on hp needed. Around here your MX120 would have its pants full with a 5 shank. Fella up the road has a 5288 FWA. He has the same DMI as us. He's running 4 shanks. 4inch twisted. That's all he can pull. We are pulling 5 3inch twisted and 4 parabolic using MX240. We have a Case 2470 that will pull it too. 18.4-34 dualed all four corners. Tires are fluid filled and full rack of weights up front and she'll stand on her tail! We've actually had issues with spinning the rims in the tires. The clay hills are tough. 5 miles North is pure sand. 5 miles East is gravel. Those guys just don't understand why we need such a big tractor...

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11 minutes ago, Dzldenny said:

Soil will make the difference on hp needed. Around here your MX120 would have its pants full with a 5 shank. Fella up the road has a 5288 FWA. He has the same DMI as us. He's running 4 shanks. 4inch twisted. That's all he can pull. We are pulling 5 3inch twisted and 4 parabolic using MX240. We have a Case 2470 that will pull it too. 18.4-34 dualed all four corners. Tires are fluid filled and full rack of weights up front and she'll stand on her tail! We've actually had issues with spinning the rims in the tires. The clay hills are tough. 5 miles North is pure sand. 5 miles East is gravel. Those guys just don't understand why we need such a big tractor...

We don't have hills to climb here, the odd sloped field but that is it.  Have about 40 acres of heavy clay, but otherwise it is clay/loam to loam just like a garden.  Seems like a 5 shank is the size for us if going with disc/chisel set up like a Sunflower 4213 or something along that line.  Doubtful I will find one that size around here so far.  Likely too small for guys here.

Be nice to find one that wasn't beat to death.

Once I overcome the hp to pull through our soil, it's just the trash cover up will be next.  Seems a disc chisel would deal with corn trash best?

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14 hours ago, Mountain Heritage said:

Clarification please....

Disc chisel, you're talking like the Glenco unit posted above or a White 445 unit that has the row of straight discs in the front and then twisted shovels on HD shanks in the rear - correct?

Or you suggesting something like these:

Sunflower 4411-05 Disc Ripper BigIron Auctions - but in proportion to the tractor being used of course.

 

Dumb question...

On stalks that have been chopped with head or chopper - best way to work them is with the rows (or what used to be a row) or cross ways/diagonal?

Any difference with NON chopped stalks for the direction of travel.

I'm talking from stand point of what people have found where it plugs the least and stalks flow through best and don't bunch up.  I'm assuming with rows or slight angle, but going to ask anyways.

I run a Brillion version of a soil saver and it always works better with dry stalks. I like to run at a little angle to the rows. Seems to leave less standing stalks. Just me

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34 minutes ago, nate said:

Something like this would do a decent job. And probably be about all 120hp would pull.  

CBF8D358-DAC0-4B17-BA9A-BD19A03D18A5.png

Was thinking a 5 or 6 shank would be a safer bet, but yeah I am thinking as you are.  I guess one reason I am sort of leaning towards a Sunflower model was dealer not far away for parts, re-sale value (???), and the reputation of well built equipment.  

 

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3 hours ago, Mountain Heritage said:

Doesn't the chopping heads use a decent amount of fuel/hp to run?  

Sad part, there really isn't anything wrong with our head or the chopper.  Especially now that the chopper has complete new set of knives on it.  I'd be scared to see what a chopping head is even worth to buy! 😮

I'm sure those heads take some HP, but if the knives are kept sharp I wouldn’t think it is that big a difference.  I bale stalks behind countless different heads and the chopping head stalks deteriorate the fastest by far.  Chopping heads tend to “cross cut” the stalk where the flail shredder tends to “split” the stalk.  If the stalk is split is seems to dry right out and stay dryer vs the chopping head product that tends to lay tight to the ground, stay wet longer, and deteriorate faster.  Calmer knife style snapping rolls with come pretty close to what a chopping head will do and may use less hp?  Then you can add a Yetter Devastator or some such stomper to the head and promote more decay of the standing stump.  

I once saw a corn field harvested by 2 combines, one had a chopping head on and one didn’t, they were alternating passes.  They did nothing to the field before the next spring.  After their first disc pass in the spring the field looked like a zebra because the chopping head passes turned so much darker.  Ultimately what gets rid of crop residue is soil organisms (microscopic stuff like microbes etc and larger organisms like earth worms) so my thought is to promote that as much as possible right from the start.  

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3 hours ago, nate said:

Something like this would do a decent job. And probably be about all 120hp would pull.  

CBF8D358-DAC0-4B17-BA9A-BD19A03D18A5.png

Sunflower is good equipment but if you can find something like this in your price range just remove a few bottoms and reposition the rest. Then you have two bottoms for parts. Ours was a 7 bottom bought at auction. Took off 2 and added the 4 parabolic. Found those listed by a fellow who couldn't pull the parabolic. He removed them and put twisted shank. Turned out cheaper for us than buying one set up the way it is now.

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On 11/14/2023 at 6:27 PM, Farming Enthusiast said:

We currently moldboard plow corn stalks and chisel plow the bean ground. I've been wondering how it would work if we replaced the moldboard plow with a high speed disc how that would go. You'd be breaking up that hard layer from the disc every other year. That's if I can find one that a 2wd 5488 will pull effectively. 

Just curious why you chisel plow the bean ground?  I would think there would be plenty of options for equipment that could go into the bean stubble in the spring and make a good seedbed.  I know each area is different but to me that seems like a waste of time, fuel, and great opportunity to have wind/water erosion.

2 hours ago, Gearclash said:

I'm sure those heads take some HP, but if the knives are kept sharp I wouldn’t think it is that big a difference.  I bale stalks behind countless different heads and the chopping head stalks deteriorate the fastest by far.  Chopping heads tend to “cross cut” the stalk where the flail shredder tends to “split” the stalk.  If the stalk is split is seems to dry right out and stay dryer vs the chopping head product that tends to lay tight to the ground, stay wet longer, and deteriorate faster.  Calmer knife style snapping rolls with come pretty close to what a chopping head will do and may use less hp?  Then you can add a Yetter Devastator or some such stomper to the head and promote more decay of the standing stump.  

I once saw a corn field harvested by 2 combines, one had a chopping head on and one didn’t, they were alternating passes.  They did nothing to the field before the next spring.  After their first disc pass in the spring the field looked like a zebra because the chopping head passes turned so much darker.  Ultimately what gets rid of crop residue is soil organisms (microscopic stuff like microbes etc and larger organisms like earth worms) so my thought is to promote that as much as possible right from the start.  

This has been our second harvest with Calmer stalk rolls.  I think they are a cheaper alternative to a chopping head.  My brother's 2208 head was due for some work so he used the Calmer update kit.  It does a really good job of turning the stalks to confetti.

I personally would avoid using a stalk chopper at all costs.  I feel it's a high cost, high maintenance, time consuming....and boring job.  Back when we did do tillage we used a Glencoe 9 shank soil saver behind a turned up 1066.  That never really plugged unless you had a foxtail problem.  We recently tiled a farm and have tilled it the last 2 years to try and level off tile ditches.  Even with today's higher populations and higher yields compared to 30 years ago we have been able to take the old Glencoe right into the stalks without chopping them.

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8 hours ago, Mountain Heritage said:

What is the average hp required to pull a disc chisel in the fall, semi wet ground (clay/loam) through corn stalks?  I say semi wet ground cause it always seems to be wet in the fall by the time tillage comes up after corn.  We never seem to luck out and get 15* weather and have that Indian Summer show its face.  Heck, we seem to get to see Old Man Winter actually with some of the white stuff scattered on the ground!

I pull that 11 shank Glencoe with my 165hp fwa. The two wheel 5088 would never touch it, just spin.

We used to pull a 10 shank IH with disc gangs with the weighted down 5088 but the IH is way lighter than the Glencoe. 

I'd bet 7 is all you could pull with an mx 120 weighted down hard

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3 hours ago, IH Forever said:

Just curious why you chisel plow the bean ground?  I would think there would be plenty of options for equipment that could go into the bean stubble in the spring and make a good seedbed.  I know each area is different but to me that seems like a waste of time, fuel, and great opportunity to have wind/water erosion.

This has been our second harvest with Calmer stalk rolls.  I think they are a cheaper alternative to a chopping head.  My brother's 2208 head was due for some work so he used the Calmer update kit.  It does a really good job of turning the stalks to confetti.

I personally would avoid using a stalk chopper at all costs.  I feel it's a high cost, high maintenance, time consuming....and boring job.  Back when we did do tillage we used a Glencoe 9 shank soil saver behind a turned up 1066.  That never really plugged unless you had a foxtail problem.  We recently tiled a farm and have tilled it the last 2 years to try and level off tile ditches.  Even with today's higher populations and higher yields compared to 30 years ago we have been able to take the old Glencoe right into the stalks without chopping them.

The idea behind the fall chisel plowing is to work in the fertilizer and break up hard pan caused by moldboard plowing. Also allowing the corn roots to be able to grow deeper, faster the next season. 

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i use a 24 ft, VT, they were designed to chop the  corn trash about 2 or 3 in deep you want to leave the corn root ball intack to keep the trash from washing in a heavy rain into a big pile in low spots or around open ditches. I run a 5 shant in line ripper in bean ground. Vertical tillage is up and down , a disk is horizontal  or moving side ways and compacts the ground,

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Disc chisels....

Anyone know the differences between a Sunflower model 4212 & 4213 disc chisels?  I'm assuming structural upgrades?  Anyone know what specifically?  Wonder if should be looking for one model vs the other?

 

Also, anyone know if you can drop of chisels on a 7 chisel model to say 5 or 6 and still get good incorporation the full width of the unit?  Thinking from stand point of lower hp tractors.  Sunflower site says 20hp per shank min.

 

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14 hours ago, Mountain Heritage said:

Disc chisels....

Also, anyone know if you can drop of chisels on a 7 chisel model to say 5 or 6 and still get good incorporation the full width of the unit?  Thinking from stand point of lower hp tractors.  Sunflower site says 20hp per shank min.

 

I currently use a 5500 IH chisel plow, 11 shanks in 13 1/2 feet works out to a 15” shank spacing.  It does a nice job.  It won’t go through standing stalks.  The 15” shank spacing is with 2” straight points.  I usually pull it 12” deep, it’ll make 275 hp beg for mercy when you hit a hard spot like a road made by trucks hauling the crop out. 

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