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345 vs 392 pulling power in 10 wheeler


acem

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Crash course on truck transmissions with my limited knowledge. A 9 or modern 10 speed as most are now. Has one shift. There is an auxiliary section to most all the older Eaton and spicer transmissions. These transmissions are basically a 5 speed main box. The five speed part wasn’t synchronized. Meaning to shift you basically shoved a collar with square pegs into the mating gear you wanted. This takes some finess. You shift up through the five gears you have and flip the switch and shift a synchronized gear set in the back compartment of trans. This gives you direct speed instead of reduction. The first transmissions you never went back into first gear or sixth in the top range. This was the no,no gear as the same speed in fifth and sixth gear made it useless. They were not same spot in trans just close in ratio. The newer trans made a gear change so sixth is faster. So a 9 speed was always a 10 speed that you never used low gear in high range (6th) fifth gear was the same speed but it was high gear in low range. A ten speed you use all the gears. 
 
now a 13 speed is a 9 speed with another set of gears off to the other side of aux case. These are usually overdrive on the big trucks or smaller vocational trucks your deep reduction under drive. Either way the shifter setup is the same just how they rationed them. A 13 speed is really 15 available gear selections but an over drive 13 speed you only use 6 7,8,9 ( these would really be 7,8,9,10) gear. The the first  spotwhich should be 6,are not used in over drive. So when you shift 12345, flip range toggle skip (1 or 1st gear spot ) then use 6789. This is a 9 speed. A 13 speed gives you 4 more gears so you go back to  6789 after you flip side knob. 

some old , old 13 speeds you split the high gears as you went up. Meaning you flipped toggle shifted main lever, flipped side switch up, then you moved main lever to next gear and side switch down etc. the deep reductions usually used in off-road have same setup but low,low reduction. So you toggle the side in low range to give you more gears and deep reduction in first 3 but it is available in the first 5. 

A 10 speed you just back into 1st gear in high range as they changed ratios a bit to make that gear useable. A super 10 usually is a slight overdrive off every gear and main case is rationed farther apart. It is better than a 2 speed axle as your range shift is always synchronized. 

the fifteen speed is a 10 speed with all available gears used on the top end. 18 speeds are harder to explain. All those road ranger and spicer were almost identical but parts were different for the torque ratings and physical size grew just a bit for bigger torque,power ratings. 
 
so just to explain again a 9 speed is just like a old 5 speed truck trans. But has a high,low range aux back piece. But you skip 1st gear location in high range. 10 speed you use all location in high range. except a super 10. That is just Overdriving every gear. 
 Used to have to fix truck transmissions almost every week. Started out with the 4,5 speeds of two ton days then into the brownie boxes of a actuall aux trans mounted away from main five speed then onto the road ranger and spicers. The reason the road ranger took over then the 5/4 systems is the twin counter shaft system. You transmit power through 3 shafts in those types instead of 2 shafts in medium duty stuff . The teeth would strip on the gears in single countershaft trans. A lot of typing but hope helps
 

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Just now, acem said:

Yeah but it's way  over 150 air miles and probably has a GVW of 80,000. 

I don't have a CDL.

I've bootlegged things before but I'd have to cross several states...

i think we talked about this before

I don't think you need to log it but you may need a CDL with air brake cert, I don't know

Have to check the states you will be driving through

Even though I was legal, I drove at night and used an app on my phone to miss the scales, what they can't see, they can't catch

 

When you think about it. 

You are just driving it, not doing business with it, not hauling anything or on your way to pick up a load

Just driving it home. 

Those with the big motor homes with air brakes need nothing other than a Class D drivers license and some of them are bigger than this truck

What's the difference???

If it had a camper on the frame it would be an RV and no DOT req's

But I don't want to get you into trouble, a couple sleeping bags in teh box may not convince Mr DOT man that you and the wife are just on vacation😉

 

 

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1 minute ago, sandhiller said:

i think we talked about this before

I don't think you need to log it but you may need a CDL with air brake cert, I don't know

Have to check the states you will be driving through

Even though I was legal, I drove at night and used an app on my phone to miss the scales, what they can't see, they can't catch

 

When you think about it. 

You are just driving it, not doing business with it, not hauling anything or on your way to pick up a load

Just driving it home. 

Those with the big motor homes with air brakes need nothing other than a Class D drivers license and some of them are bigger than this truck

What's the difference???

If it had a camper on the frame it would be an RV and no DOT req's

But I don't want to get you into trouble, a couple sleeping bags in teh box may not convince Mr DOT man that you and the wife are just on vacation😉

 

 

Air brakes are not an endorsement. They are a restriction. Meaning you can drive a truck under cdl weight with air brakes.with a passenger license.  As long as it falls in the non cdl required weight and other laws. If it is cdl then you need to have passed the knowledge and driving test not to have the restriction to drive air brake trucks. It is a restriction like manual auto trans in a cdl or needing to wear glasses to drive.

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12 minutes ago, vtfireman85 said:

Isn’t there an exemption for transporting something like that that was purchased away? 

There is something about letting you get it home when you first buy it, pretty sure of it. 

But would have to check local laws and maybe fed laws

 

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1 hour ago, dale560 said:

Air brakes are not an endorsement. They are a restriction. Meaning you can drive a truck under cdl weight with air brakes.with a passenger license.  As long as it falls in the non cdl required weight and other laws. If it is cdl then you need to have passed the knowledge and driving test not to have the restriction to drive air brake trucks. It is a restriction like manual auto trans in a cdl or needing to wear glasses to drive.

You are right, had to look at the back of mine

Thank you for the correction!

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Here is a cut away view of road ranger. Front 5 speed sect. Not synchronized. Rear aux section is synchroed. This is a 15 or 18 speed it looks like. The first cluster of gears is the counter shaft or old days cluster gear. There is another identical countershaft on the other side of transmission and you can see main shaft gears poking in the middle

33B8DEB6-08A8-4BC5-84AD-CD2E1B267709.jpeg

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1 hour ago, dale560 said:

now a 13 speed is a 9 speed with another set of gears off to the other side of aux case. These are usually overdrive on the big trucks or smaller vocational trucks your deep reduction under drive. Either way the shifter setup is the same just how they rationed them. A 13 speed is really 15 available gear selections but an over drive 13 speed you only use 6 7,8,9 ( these would really be 7,8,9,10) gear. The the first  spotwhich should be 6,are not used in over drive. So when you shift 12345, flip range toggle skip (1 or 1st gear spot ) then use 6789. This is a 9 speed. A 13 speed gives you 4 more gears so you go back to  6789 after you flip side knob. 

some old , old 13 speeds you split the high gears as you went up. Meaning you flipped toggle shifted main lever, flipped side switch up, then you moved main lever to next gear and side switch down etc. the deep reductions usually used in off-road have same setup but low,low reduction. So you toggle the side in low range to give you more gears and deep reduction in first 3 but it is available in the first 5. 

You might have that backwards as the 13 speeds I had last you shift 1 through 5, lift up range and then shift through the top 4 gears (leaving out 1st) splitting each one as you go. 

IMG_20231202_222001903_HDR.thumb.jpg.b45227ebbb746494ebf99a90091df56e.jpg

 

Difference on the 18 speed I have now, I am able to split the bottom end too. 

IMG_20231202_222100522_HDR.thumb.jpg.ae93d4fb4ce72539ac0c1bbb6b3dc875.jpg

 

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12 minutes ago, sandhiller said:

You might have that backwards as the 13 speed I had last you shift 1 through 5, lift up range and then shift through the top 4 gears (leaving out 1st) splitting each one as you go. 

 

My explanation makes more sense if you consider low as 1 then 2, 3, 4, 5

This is hard to explain but easy to do, there are 13 total forward speeds that way

image.png.a1b82124b18180648c7a621d42c7cee9.png

 

Difference on the 18 speed I have now, I am able to split the bottom end (1 through 5)too. 

I have only seen those old high range splitters  in old cabovers around  here. . I didn’t really think they kept them around after the mid 80s. They were always in freight liner cabovers for some reason behind a Cummins small cam.

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Just now, dale560 said:

I have only seen those old high range splitters  in old cabovers around  here. . I didn’t really think they kept them around after the mid 80s. They were always in freight liner cabovers for some reason behind a Cummins small cam.

'04, '07, '11 13 speeds and '04 18 speed is what I have driven with this pattern

FL, KW and Pete

All RoadRangers

I do have a 72 Diamond Reo with the range and splitter all on the side slide button

You start out with it back then range forward and forward again and back to split, if that makes sense. 

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1 minute ago, sandhiller said:

And regular 10 speed

IMG_20231202_222729351_HDR.thumb.jpg.7e1169c64406332cb66bfb84292f85de.jpg

 

Super 10

IMG_20231202_222756040_HDR.thumb.jpg.e2d41180255157bdc89cab5fd51bbede.jpg

You know most medium  trucks have reverse over to left and up in a 5 speed or over right and  down on a 4 speed. Some odd ball trans used by Chevy reverse on a 5 speed was all the way right and up. And if I rember 1st gear was all the way left and up. Then no 2nd under it. You had to go right and up for second down for third over and up for 4 th and down for fifth. A real odd shift.

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2 minutes ago, sandhiller said:

'04, '07, '11 13 speeds and '04 18 speed is what I have driven with this pattern

FL, KW and Pete

All RoadRangers

I do have a 72 Diamond Reo with the range and splitter all on the side slide button

You start out with it back then range forward and forward again and back to split, if that makes sense. 

That side splitter is how our 13 speed deep reduction 6613 in 1900 ih shifts. All on the side splitter no front up down toggle. I put that up down toggle one spot side splitter on buddies 2500 ih with same trans this summer. 

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48 minutes ago, dale560 said:

You know most medium  trucks have reverse over to left and up in a 5 speed or over right and  down on a 4 speed. Some odd ball trans used by Chevy reverse on a 5 speed was all the way right and up. And if I rember 1st gear was all the way left and up. Then no 2nd under it. You had to go right and up for second down for third over and up for 4 th and down for fifth. A real odd shift.

Our military 5t 6x6 has that 5 sp pattern

IMG_20231202_223750165_HDR.thumb.jpg.18566b78e047255542980f6c118ea914.jpg

 

I think a 15 sp shifts that pattern too

 

IMG_20231202_232325914_HDR.thumb.jpg.4327c160e06bb6e94a60e6e01269785f.jpg

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Just now, dale560 said:

Usually when they shift like that 4 down is direct and up into high or (5) is an overdrive ratio on the main shaft. 

Appreciate the lessons of the inner workings

having knowledge of what you are operating is always a good thing

I just drive em I have never been in one. 

****, I'm not even a real trucker, just happen to drive one for some extra pocket jingle to feed my cow habit🤠

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6 hours ago, sandhiller said:

Appreciate the lessons of the inner workings

having knowledge of what you are operating is always a good thing

I just drive em I have never been in one. 

****, I'm not even a real trucker, just happen to drive one for some extra pocket jingle to feed my cow habit🤠

Same here I was never a real trucker or anything else it was the same thing do something to support the other habit.

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Hard to xplain when you’re not a real teacher. When I talk about high gear years ago it usually was  , that you were not transmitting power through the gears. The front shifter locked onto input shaft in high and everything was turning motor crankshaft speed straight through top shaft out the driveshaft  on all the older transmissions. Then in mid 1980s overdrives became the norm so usually 4th gear became straight through and 5th gear was powered off countershaft instead of main input shaft.
 

Did I ever tell you how much fun I had rebuilding truck transmissions?

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9 hours ago, dale560 said:

Crash course on truck transmissions with my limited knowledge. A 9 or modern 10 speed as most are now. Has one shift. There is an auxiliary section to most all the older Eaton and spicer transmissions. These transmissions are basically a 5 speed main box. The five speed part wasn’t synchronized. Meaning to shift you basically shoved a collar with square pegs into the mating gear you wanted. This takes some finess. You shift up through the five gears you have and flip the switch and shift a synchronized gear set in the back compartment of trans. This gives you direct speed instead of reduction. The first transmissions you never went back into first gear or sixth in the top range. This was the no,no gear as the same speed in fifth and sixth gear made it useless. They were not same spot in trans just close in ratio. The newer trans made a gear change so sixth is faster. So a 9 speed was always a 10 speed that you never used low gear in high range (6th) fifth gear was the same speed but it was high gear in low range. A ten speed you use all the gears. 
 
now a 13 speed is a 9 speed with another set of gears off to the other side of aux case. These are usually overdrive on the big trucks or smaller vocational trucks your deep reduction under drive. Either way the shifter setup is the same just how they rationed them. A 13 speed is really 15 available gear selections but an over drive 13 speed you only use 6 7,8,9 ( these would really be 7,8,9,10) gear. The the first  spotwhich should be 6,are not used in over drive. So when you shift 12345, flip range toggle skip (1 or 1st gear spot ) then use 6789. This is a 9 speed. A 13 speed gives you 4 more gears so you go back to  6789 after you flip side knob. 

some old , old 13 speeds you split the high gears as you went up. Meaning you flipped toggle shifted main lever, flipped side switch up, then you moved main lever to next gear and side switch down etc. the deep reductions usually used in off-road have same setup but low,low reduction. So you toggle the side in low range to give you more gears and deep reduction in first 3 but it is available in the first 5. 

A 10 speed you just back into 1st gear in high range as they changed ratios a bit to make that gear useable. A super 10 usually is a slight overdrive off every gear and main case is rationed farther apart. It is better than a 2 speed axle as your range shift is always synchronized. 

the fifteen speed is a 10 speed with all available gears used on the top end. 18 speeds are harder to explain. All those road ranger and spicer were almost identical but parts were different for the torque ratings and physical size grew just a bit for bigger torque,power ratings. 
 
so just to explain again a 9 speed is just like a old 5 speed truck trans. But has a high,low range aux back piece. But you skip 1st gear location in high range. 10 speed you use all location in high range. except a super 10. That is just Overdriving every gear. 
 Used to have to fix truck transmissions almost every week. Started out with the 4,5 speeds of two ton days then into the brownie boxes of a actuall aux trans mounted away from main five speed then onto the road ranger and spicers. The reason the road ranger took over then the 5/4 systems is the twin counter shaft system. You transmit power through 3 shafts in those types instead of 2 shafts in medium duty stuff . The teeth would strip on the gears in single countershaft trans. A lot of typing but hope helps
 

Thank you for the explanation. I’ve often wondered why a 9 spd. doesn’t split low gear but a 10 spd. does. What you’ve explained makes sense. In college I drove a Volvo with 350hp. Detroit and 9 spd. I often thought a 13 spd. splitting the high side would have been helpful as it was under powered. 
 

I also drove a Freightliner Century with a super 10 a few times. So how does that work since you split each gear rather than splitting and then going back through the 5 spd.?

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My old 78 Ford 9000 has a 290 Cummins with a transmission with deep reduction. It also has a walking beam suspension.

It shifted like a normal 9 speed except you had extra low gears with a flipper on the dash. It was great off road. 

The logger friend I bought it from said he had idled off with 120,000 lb on dirt!

I don't know the name of the transmission but it was great for farm use!

 

 

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2 hours ago, acem said:

My old 78 Ford 9000 has a 290 Cummins with a transmission with deep reduction. It also has a walking beam suspension.

It shifted like a normal 9 speed except you had extra low gears with a flipper on the dash. It was great off road. 

The logger friend I bought it from said he had idled off with 120,000 lb on dirt!

I don't know the name of the transmission but it was great for farm use!

 

 

They had different series 8LL were a deep reduction 9 speed based. When you get into new semis they all have gone to brand specific trans mostly now.

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