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Why was IH construction eq unpopular ?


tommyw-5088

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19 hours ago, Ian Beale said:

IIRC that would be the planerary differential wouldn't it?  And that had the disadvantage that it didn't allow pivot turns.  

Take your pick - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_steering

 

 

I think you are right.  Cletracs almost from the beginning were gear exclusively towards farming.  They even made row crop cultivators for them before the original Farmall hit the market.  There used to be a guy who had Model F at the local show every year see above video.  Diff steering with a steering wheel pretty advanced in its day.  One downfall of IH and Cat crawlers of yesteryear like our TD-14A is it took forever to turn or get around corners plowing because of the brake steering.  

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On 10/19/2023 at 7:22 AM, mike newman said:

rather harsh over view.......unfortunately  the big competitor  from Peoria, Illinois,  produced stolid , long life track machines  , albeit with low H/P engines relative to the block weight .....but   machines that just kept going.....

One would need an hour or two to dismantle all the perceived ''flaws''  in IH products....but there were features in the small crawlers that made them higher producing units, that the similar size competitors.....

All about the application.....any of the IH line of track machines , which after having  a ton or three of pig iron  hanging off them, inevitably seemed to find an issue , that sent the owner into either insolvency ..or the local mental health Institution..... In Agricultural applications   the TD 14   and its variants more than held its own , when matched against the ubiquitous D69U...but after the Bucyrus  Erie    installation on the IH ....things went south....

Junk...No, not at all.....deficiencies  in manufacture...??   which some might say is another term for 'Junk'...No    ,I would  say ''Horse's for Course's"'    'In New Zealand due to trade sanctions   with the US  /shipping costs  and the general vagaries of the commercial world, any American import was very expensive  so for example theKB6 truck which was very popular here, was used waaaay beyond its intended rating....and likewise  with the crawler's....and ad infinitum..

As always my opinion...but I still have  several  red and one yellow   track machine...all totally functioning ...;)

Mike

 

....I had to go t'other morning after  pushing this view on the topic subject....had to go out the back using ''green energy ''

I wish to add a comment in respect of the old Hough 65 ...in the hard yakka   logging application...Again the Cat 950 was supreme , but the Hough 65 would still go as long  it air in the tyres  and diesel in the tank..They were extremely popular down under, with the smaller logging crew. With the very powerfull  hydralics .. , I have watched , from the safety of the IH truck    6x4  cab , a Hough 65 lifting a huge Kahikatea  (    NZ  native podocarp   )   log, with a D7 tethered   at the back of the loader , to keep the rear wheels on the floor.......this to enable the log truck , with  the pivot down    (un locking  /  drop  )     bolster 's   to be loaded...     (Bolsters like that now totally illegal....)...Always a drama ...but with trees the girth of the log, just fitting inside the  truck inside bolster width  ...in those days , the only option  in certain terrain....The other option was the 17A    pushing on  via  purpose built skids.......

Another interesting feature of the Hough 65 , was the  loader   linkage    set up and geometry.....later copied by    Cat....

We used to do a lot of 'rootraking '' Forestry blocks   prior to  winter planting....   The small...7 /8   ton BTD8 reined supreme on that task.....because of its agility ,and light weight , relative to its track frame length ,   it could out climb  a Fiat Allis AD 14 ...which in turn could out perform the ubiquitous    D6C  /D....and added to that if one of the little TD8'did get stuck/  bellied   or swamped in a little ''hanging valley'' of which there are many ...the small crawler was easy to salvage.....They were also far superior in performance to the Cat D4C   D....in those slope gradients

Problem with the old TD6 /  TD9   was not only the pig iron cast around it like death sentence.....was the bloody great radiator guard, which was obviously designed to trap  every bit of crap that the fan pulled through...straight into the radiator...There were a lot fitted, retrospectively with six blade pusher fans , which helped immensely .....but the majority of cracked heads were no doubt due to over heating, for the want of that six blade pusher fan..

Then  to add further insult to injury.....A    Carco winch was hung on the back of so many of these crawlers......so toss in poor maintenance  of final drives etc .....the legend  then was born of the unreliability of IH track machines....

That   was the  death sentence.......

The diesel starting system of the IH   engines of that era was quite clever...but the frustrations of the Cat pony motors   and the subsequent long engine life of the Cat Diesel , far out weighed any perceived  advantage    the IH may have had......(until you had to do a steering clutch job on the Cat....:angry:)

Not with standing the above comment....my favourite IH tractors are the ''Gas over diesel '' models...There are quite a few in our big shed.....!!!

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BTD8  Track Loader  ...did many hours loading the IH trucks

BTD8     81 series...(caught in an embarrassing situation   )

BTD8   82 series   ...Rescuing a early D9 from a ''greasy    back ''

..the D9    owner caught a lot of 'stick '' for having to use us to get his machine out  !!!!!

Mike

post-157-1161841105  Z125.jpg

post-157-1263547970.jpg

post-157-1157014567  d9td8...3.jpg

post-157-1157014834   d9td8.jpg

post-157-1157014788  d9td8...2.jpg

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1 hour ago, mike newman said:

....I had to go t'other morning after  pushing this view on the topic subject....had to go out the back using ''green energy ''

I wish to add a comment in respect of the old Hough 65 ...in the hard yakka   logging application...Again the Cat 950 was supreme , but the Hough 65 would still go as long  it air in the tyres  and diesel in the tank..They were extremely popular down under, with the smaller logging crew. With the very powerfull  hydralics .. , I have watched , from the safety of the IH truck    6x4  cab , a Hough 65 lifting a huge Kahikatea  (    NZ  native podocarp   )   log, with a D7 tethered   at the back of the loader , to keep the rear wheels on the floor.......this to enable the log truck , with  the pivot down    (un locking  /  drop  )     bolster 's   to be loaded...     (Bolsters like that now totally illegal....)...Always a drama ...but with trees the girth of the log, just fitting inside the  truck inside bolster width  ...in those days , the only option  in certain terrain....The other option was the 17A    pushing on  via  purpose built skids.......

Another interesting feature of the Hough 65 , was the  loader   linkage    set up and geometry.....later copied by    Cat....

We used to do a lot of 'rootraking '' Forestry blocks   prior to  winter planting....   The small...7 /8   ton BTD8 reined supreme on that task.....because of its agility ,and light weight , relative to its track frame length ,   it could out climb  a Fiat Allis AD 14 ...which in turn could out perform the ubiquitous    D6C  /D....and added to that if one of the little TD8'did get stuck/  bellied   or swamped in a little ''hanging valley'' of which there are many ...the small crawler was easy to salvage.....They were also far superior in performance to the Cat D4C   D....in those slope gradients

Problem with the old TD6 /  TD9   was not only the pig iron cast around it like death sentence.....was the bloody great radiator guard, which was obviously designed to trap  every bit of crap that the fan pulled through...straight into the radiator...There were a lot fitted, retrospectively with six blade pusher fans , which helped immensely .....but the majority of cracked heads were no doubt due to over heating, for the want of that six blade pusher fan..

Then  to add further insult to injury.....A    Carco winch was hung on the back of so many of these crawlers......so toss in poor maintenance  of final drives etc .....the legend  then was born of the unreliability of IH track machines....

That   was the  death sentence.......

The diesel starting system of the IH   engines of that era was quite clever...but the frustrations of the Cat pony motors   and the subsequent long engine life of the Cat Diesel , far out weighed any perceived  advantage    the IH may have had......(until you had to do a steering clutch job on the Cat....:angry:)

Not with standing the above comment....my favourite IH tractors are the ''Gas over diesel '' models...There are quite a few in our big shed.....!!!

I spent many hours in both a H65 and a H 90, liked the 90, you could keep the 65. I never ever liked listening to a Detroit, particularly when it is behind me. 

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Lots going on here, kinda all over the place, let me start with the OP. IH was far from junk, Cat had one tried and true design where IH was always trying to innovate. I do think they did way to much field R&D, had 2 changes in design directly tied to our 20C, piston sleeve oring and fan belts, by the time they got to the later models, they had it right and will put that almost 50 year old tractor up against anything on the market today. I attribute their demise to upper management, a strike combined with a massive expansion in Europe and the path was set.     

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13 hours ago, mike newman said:

....I had to go t'other morning after  pushing this view on the topic subject....had to go out the back using ''green energy ''

I wish to add a comment in respect of the old Hough 65 ...in the hard yakka   logging application...Again the Cat 950 was supreme , but the Hough 65 would still go as long  it air in the tyres  and diesel in the tank..They were extremely popular down under, with the smaller logging crew. With the very powerfull  hydralics .. , I have watched , from the safety of the IH truck    6x4  cab , a Hough 65 lifting a huge Kahikatea  (    NZ  native podocarp   )   log, with a D7 tethered   at the back of the loader , to keep the rear wheels on the floor.......this to enable the log truck , with  the pivot down    (un locking  /  drop  )     bolster 's   to be loaded...     (Bolsters like that now totally illegal....)...Always a drama ...but with trees the girth of the log, just fitting inside the  truck inside bolster width  ...in those days , the only option  in certain terrain....The other option was the 17A    pushing on  via  purpose built skids.......

Another interesting feature of the Hough 65 , was the  loader   linkage    set up and geometry.....later copied by    Cat....

We used to do a lot of 'rootraking '' Forestry blocks   prior to  winter planting....   The small...7 /8   ton BTD8 reined supreme on that task.....because of its agility ,and light weight , relative to its track frame length ,   it could out climb  a Fiat Allis AD 14 ...which in turn could out perform the ubiquitous    D6C  /D....and added to that if one of the little TD8'did get stuck/  bellied   or swamped in a little ''hanging valley'' of which there are many ...the small crawler was easy to salvage.....They were also far superior in performance to the Cat D4C   D....in those slope gradients

Problem with the old TD6 /  TD9   was not only the pig iron cast around it like death sentence.....was the bloody great radiator guard, which was obviously designed to trap  every bit of crap that the fan pulled through...straight into the radiator...There were a lot fitted, retrospectively with six blade pusher fans , which helped immensely .....but the majority of cracked heads were no doubt due to over heating, for the want of that six blade pusher fan..

Then  to add further insult to injury.....A    Carco winch was hung on the back of so many of these crawlers......so toss in poor maintenance  of final drives etc .....the legend  then was born of the unreliability of IH track machines....

That   was the  death sentence.......

The diesel starting system of the IH   engines of that era was quite clever...but the frustrations of the Cat pony motors   and the subsequent long engine life of the Cat Diesel , far out weighed any perceived  advantage    the IH may have had......(until you had to do a steering clutch job on the Cat....:angry:)

Not with standing the above comment....my favourite IH tractors are the ''Gas over diesel '' models...There are quite a few in our big shed.....!!!

"Pulled crap right through the radiator"

That's a issue I have with many applications involving slow moving ag and industrial equipment. Why oh why they don't or didn't have fans that pushed out? I have a small 5 ton Massey crawler,6 way blade,great little machine.It sucks all the dust back through the radiator and a oil leak turns it to concrete.Same thing with old IH tractors.I don't need that heat,dust and noise being blown back on me.I used to run Northwest cranes and shovels .They have reverserable fan blades for winter and summer. I tried to see if any were available for my tractors and dozer.I was told there isn't enough clearance from blades to radiator to have reverserable fans. I just don't understand why that wasn't engineered in many more applications. 

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Here in South Central PA, we would see a decent number of IH wheel loaders, skid steers, and smaller dozers.  The tractor loader backhoes and industrial tractor loaders, not so much. 

Cat was king, of course.  Deere seemed to do well with their industrial line here, as well.  So much so that our local Deere industrial dealer was one of the few 'Gold' level dealers in the country.

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7 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

I spent many hours in both a H65 and a H 90, liked the 90, you could keep the 65. I never ever liked listening to a Detroit, particularly when it is behind me. 

Not sure about the Detroit   bit , Seth.....  All the Hough 65  loaders had that 414  cubic inch IH Motor   therein.......

Mike

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CAT builds a good product and has great parts support. That's what keeps CAT on top round here. You know you can get parts and the quality will be good but the parts ain't cheep.

An interesting side note. I have met engineers who worked on projects in China. They said most of the CAT equipment used in China is made in China and the American made equipment is of much better quality.

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  When you think about it IH never led in any product for the industry when it got past the lower HP TD crawler.  In the Ag industry there were competitors with far greater financial muscle but New Holland in the Sperry days often led the industry when it had a good product.  A big name does not always guarantee a sale.  

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1 hour ago, acem said:

CAT builds a good product and has great parts support. That's what keeps CAT on top round here. You know you can get parts and the quality will be good but the parts ain't cheep.

An interesting side note. I have met engineers who worked on projects in China. They said most of the CAT equipment used in China is made in China and the American made equipment is of much better quality.

....Huh ......why am I not surprised......:unsure:

Mike

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2 hours ago, acem said:

CAT builds a good product and has great parts support. That's what keeps CAT on top round here. You know you can get parts and the quality will be good but the parts ain't cheep.

An interesting side note. I have met engineers who worked on projects in China. They said most of the CAT equipment used in China is made in China and the American made equipment is of much better quality.

On parts availability - an (Oz)  friend's comment was "If Allis had had Cat's parts availability Allis would have been Cat" .

And another friend on a "Made in China Komatsu" - "The way to make a dozer out of it is you lift the radiator cap and run a Komatsu under it"

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All this talk about dozers and no mention of Terex or Euclid. They were superior back in the day.Their big dozer had two Detroits side by side.Basically separate drives fit together.Full power on turns because each engine supplied a track.Radiator and cooling system in rear instead of up front away from the dust and dirt.I would have love to run one of those screaming demons.

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1 hour ago, Jacka said:

All this talk about dozers and no mention of Terex or Euclid. They were superior back in the day.Their big dozer had two Detroits side by side.Basically separate drives fit together.Full power on turns because each engine supplied a track.Radiator and cooling system in rear instead of up front away from the dust and dirt.I would have love to run one of those screaming demons.

A bloke out this way had some on scrub chaining.  He went back to HD 31's and HD 41's.

Re "I would have love to run one of those screaming demons."

By what I've heard from one of his drivers you wouldn't have for very long

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4 hours ago, Ian Beale said:

A bloke out this way had some on scrub chaining.  He went back to HD 31's and HD 41's.

Re "I would have love to run one of those screaming demons."

By what I've heard from one of his drivers you wouldn't have for very long

There is a lot of nostalgia when it comes to 2 cycle Detroit Diesels. I don’t know anybody who had extensive experience with them who has good memories. I knew a lot of truck drivers who hated them. Hate may not be a strong enough word. 

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3 minutes ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

I knew a lot of truck drivers who hated them. Hate may not be a strong enough word. 

The reality is that the Detroit 2 strokes are not well suited for a truck’s load cycle.  A Detroit 2 stroke is exactly like any other 2 stroke in that they need to be wound up to full RPM and THEN have the load thrown on them.  So they work great on those type of loads or in front of a torque converter.  But asking them to accelerate under load in a truck - eh - not ideal.  

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4 minutes ago, Gearclash said:

The reality is that the Detroit 2 strokes are not well suited for a truck’s load cycle.  A Detroit 2 stroke is exactly like any other 2 stroke in that they need to be wound up to full RPM and THEN have the load thrown on them.  So they work great on those type of loads or in front of a torque converter.  But asking them to accelerate under load in a truck - eh - not ideal.  

There is an interview with Doug Steiger that is on YouTube. In it, he talked about why Steiger quit using them. He said they talked to a lot of people and came to the realization that the Detroits were costing them sales. I was a bit surprised by that. Not because I think they are good engines, just because I thought they still had a decent reputation in the 60’s. It is a very interesting interview for a lot of reasons. 

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Interesting fact, JP Morgan stepped in and merged several companies that became IH, no idea on the AG stuff but the construction side were allowed to continue to produce separately at least for a while. I live in a unique geographical location in regards to MFG's, 25mi from Deere, 60mi from Cat and 150miles from IH, Deere was not a player in the industrial stuff till the mid 70's. My Dad started right after he was discharged from WW II. IH had been producing dozers for the war, Cat was building other stuff and had not got back to normal production, Dad went to Peoria, IL and bought a new TD 14 in 1947, they had a Cat 60 they used to pull a trailer for the 14, the 60 supposedly had a heck of a road gear. Anyways that's how we got started with IH. I type IH only because it's quicker, International Harvester was the parent company, the industrial side was just International. More tomorrow...maybe.       

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20 minutes ago, pede said:

Interesting fact, JP Morgan stepped in and merged several companies that became IH, no idea on the AG stuff but the construction side were allowed to continue to produce separately at least for a while. I live in a unique geographical location in regards to MFG's, 25mi from Deere, 60mi from Cat and 150miles from IH, Deere was not a player in the industrial stuff till the mid 70's. My Dad started right after he was discharged from WW II. IH had been producing dozers for the war, Cat was building other stuff and had not got back to normal production, Dad went to Peoria, IL and bought a new TD 14 in 1947, they had a Cat 60 they used to pull a trailer for the 14, the 60 supposedly had a heck of a road gear. Anyways that's how we got started with IH. I type IH only because it's quicker, International Harvester was the parent company, the industrial side was just International. More tomorrow...maybe.       

  JD was picking up steam once the 1010/2010 were behind them.  If you are talking about larger dozers such as the JD 750 then I would agree with you in terms of being a major competitor.  Case was a step or two ahead and by the late 1970's the regional Case dealer had dedicated industrial locations and branched out into Buffalo and Syracuse by the 1980's.  

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Deere was BIG in logging here, i really can only think of seeing one IH skidder in my life, and I only know of one logger using a Dresser dozer. The USFS log contracts were seemingly taylor made for JD1010,2010, and 350/340 equipment as it specified maximum size, weight etc. they are as plentiful here as though they grew on trees. One local logging/excavation contractor used to buy them 10 at a time, and have one cannibalized before 6 months was over. I don’t think they we’re better, I think they were just the right size. 

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56 minutes ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

There is an interview with Doug Steiger that is on YouTube. In it, he talked about why Steiger quit using them. He said they talked to a lot of people and came to the realization that the Detroits were costing them sales. I was a bit surprised by that. Not because I think they are good engines, just because I thought they still had a decent reputation in the 60’s. It is a very interesting interview for a lot of reasons. 

I’m not a fan of Detroit’s but I don’t hat them either.  However don’t forget some of worlds biggest tractors were powered by screaming Jimmies 

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1 hour ago, Gearclash said:

 But asking them to accelerate under load in a truck - eh - not ideal.  

That maybe true for most Detriot engines but we have a Silver 8V-92 435 hp in a Pete cabover and starting off the line it will smoke our Cat 3406B pulling the same loads.  The 3406 is 425 hp.  

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