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Why was IH construction eq unpopular ?


tommyw-5088

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2 hours ago, Binderdan said:

Most of IH Industrial/Payline were dedicated Industrial/Payline dealers. They were just in the industrial part of town not on the main drag through town like Truck and AG dealers usually were. So less seen.

AG dealers were allowed to sell some backhoes, forklifts, and skid steers. Maybe a couple other small odds and ends but not the full industrial line. Dealers couldn't even sell parts that weren't part of their contract. Example: An IH AG dealer couldn't sell Payline parts unless they also had a Payline contract(exception of the few machines they were permitted tosell). Same went for Truck, AG, Payline. Although some part numbers were shared between product lines, and could be got. Some bigger dealers had multiple contracts and could sell multiple or all lines Truck, AG, Payline, and Cub Cadet.

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A few of the larger Payline dealers include Roland Machinery, Payline West, Allied Equipment Co, Howard Cooper, Berry Machinery, North Carolina Equipment Co, Border Machinery, Mississippi Road Supply Co, H. W. Moore, and so many more.

These dealers had full service shops and trucks and parts inventories just like the CAT dealer. Most later IH Payline products were advertised to be "modular" meaning you could swap sub assemblies for rebuilt ones without having to remove another sub assembly. Engines, transmissions, final drives, etc. to get you going again faster.

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Those are some outstanding pictures that I can't recall ever seeing before 🏅

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By the 1960's contractors just did not look at IH equipment.  By the late 70's some of the dozers like the TD 15 was as good as any made but the big guys had been burned to many times to even look.

The old gas start diesel had a weak head prone to cracking if not babied. Warmed up  slowly cooled down before shutting down, a head would last a long time. But how many non owners are going to care.  The old Cat engines would take a lot more. Final drives in the old Cats are tapered splines. It takes special tooling to take apart and press together. Not to farmers liking, but dirt contractors hired Cat , or bought the tooling. A hundred ton hydraulic press unit and a number of different arms. IH used square cut splines that will rock back and forth, and warring away.  A operator bangs something a little hard a warn spline stripes, your broke down. Bits and pieces of splines splitting off metal going through bearings, another failure.

From mechanics of that time IH was working at improving final drives and transmissions. But it made sourcing parts harder as way more different options. From 47 to 58 Cat made the same D6 tractor. In the same time IH had 4 different TD 14's that were different.   

By the time IH had better equipment on the west coast nobody cared.

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24 minutes ago, Binderdan said:

The TD-24 was IH's reply to CAT D8. Similar sized but the TD-24 was gasoline start that switched to diesel instead of the separate pony motor like CAT used. The TD-24 also had a new innovative planetary steering system that allowed the inside track to drop a gear rather than go dead in a gradual turn. This was brilliant because both tracks could be pulling in a turn unlike CAT where turns were only one side pulled.

Sadly the planetary steering system was rushed into production and had a lot of failures til they were updated. Once the TD-24 Series 241 came out most of these issues were resolved. But CAT took full advantage of IH's bad publicity.

CAT didn't have a similar system until the late 70s or 80s as I understand.

Planetary steering was invented by Rolling White who founded Clectrac back in 1910s.  

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One other point was early IH could be worked on with normal hand tools which was favorable in certain sectors, Cat you need a massive puller to change a sprocket as one example.

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23 minutes ago, hardtail said:

There was a lot of marketing claims going on between Cat, AC and IH at that time, largest, most powerful, heaviest... this would have probably been pre 1955 as I think that's when the D9 debuited which kind of ended it, of interest the Euclid TC12 emerged around the sametime and would have dwarfed a D9 but nobody ever mentions it, it had some weird features but fully independent articulated tracks which I'm not sure anyone has ever duplicated, guess there never was a consumer need

Cat duplicated that concept with 2 D9s but I don’t known if they put it to use.  Cat also put together two D8s side by side to push one big blade to clear land for the Hungry Horse dam not too far away from here.  

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This is a picture of a tile plow that the company I worked for had when I first started. Although it was only in service the first couple of years I worked there, it was very well thought of. It plowed in literally millions of feet of tile in its 25+ years and was the backbone of the company in its infancy. It was proudly nicknamed "The Screamin Demon" I can't remember what series TD25 it is but I'm sure somebody on here can tell me. From what I remember it was very reliable and it had to be. It was replaced when the Inter-Drain and BRON tile plows came around

C2C0B108-56BC-437E-B2AA-63F385A2BD6C.png

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37 minutes ago, vtfireman85 said:

I can still go into the local Dressta dealer (yes we have one) and get parts for IH dozers, and there are still a bunch of IH and Dresser machines around earning their keep every day.

It really depends on what model someone is talking about. Some models still have decent support. Other models have absolutely nothing available. Some of the engines used in industrial equipment have basically nothing available, not even gaskets. Don’t even mention exhaust components. Two that come up on the construction board would be the DVT-573 and DT-429. Anything larger than a TD15 IH likely has almost no parts availability. Lots of machines with totally used up undercarriage with no direct replacements available. 7.5” rails, forget it. There is nothing. Luckily CAT undercarriage parts can be made to fit, but it is a big job. 

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7 minutes ago, hardtail said:

One other point was early IH could be worked on with normal hand tools which was favorable in certain sectors, Cat you need a massive puller to change a sprocket as one example.

My uncle and cousins farmed and did some dirt work with a TD-18A and Cat D7 from the 50s to the 70s.  They tell me the 18A would out pull the D7, but the undercarriage wore out faster on the 18A.  Both crawlers required several overhauls in the transmission and final drives.  During the summer they carried small 2x4”s to set on the deck so they could put their feet down.  The deck and transmission would get so hot they couldn’t other wise.  They still have both crawlers and only parked them when the 6030s came along

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15 minutes ago, Farming Enthusiast said:

This is a picture of a tile plow that the company I worked for had when I first started. Although it was only in service the first couple of years I worked there, it was very well thought of. It plowed in literally millions of feet of tile in its 25+ years and was the backbone of the company in its infancy. It was proudly nicknamed "The Screamin Demon" I can't remember what series TD25 it is but I'm sure somebody on here can tell me. From what I remember it was very reliable and it had to be. It was replaced when the Inter-Drain and BRON tile plows came around

C2C0B108-56BC-437E-B2AA-63F385A2BD6C.png

That nose looks like a TD25C, they were a great machine in their day, still kick myself for not buying a 25B years ago for dirt cheap but they are a lot of crawler to move

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5 hours ago, hardtail said:

That nose looks like a TD25C, they were a great machine in their day, still kick myself for not buying a 25B years ago for dirt cheap but they are a lot of crawler to move

One memory I have from it is some corn debris  caught fire in the engine compartment. I was the back hoe operator at the time so I dumped dirt on it to put it out. Once we were satisfied that it was out, we went about our business and took the belly pan off that winter to get the dirt out of it. 

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A northern California dealer Peterson Caterpillar pioneered the double Cats. I believe the first were the side by side D8's like the King Ranch in Texas used to clear brush. Then they went on to build the one in front of the other D8's used to push load scrappers, or for deep ripping. In the last 10 years Peterson Cat put a pare of D8's together for a collector of Cats. The story is on the ACMOC site somewhere. Cat came with the D 10 in 77 so that was the end of pared Cats. But Cat built enough to list them in the literature as a factor made item.

Even with the D11 Cat I believe Komatsu made a bigger one. But from information on ACMOC site Komatsu stops supporting equipment at 10 years. So if your one of the big mines like in Australia  that run them to destruction in 10 years they are not that popular.

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1 hour ago, acem said:

IH construction was very popular here up until the end of IH construction. Craco international was a strong dealer selling trucks, ag and construction. Still sell trucks. Cih was a fool to give the CIH dealership to the case dealer who went bankrupt a few years later...

Still some IH equipment running here but it's on farms and other slow jobs.

IH log skidders were well liked machines. The JD skidders were not well though of until they bought timber Jack.

 

  Around here there were many JD skidders but I don't recall ever seeing an IH.  

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10 hours ago, Farming Enthusiast said:

This is a picture of a tile plow that the company I worked for had when I first started. Although it was only in service the first couple of years I worked there, it was very well thought of. It plowed in literally millions of feet of tile in its 25+ years and was the backbone of the company in its infancy. It was proudly nicknamed "The Screamin Demon" I can't remember what series TD25 it is but I'm sure somebody on here can tell me. From what I remember it was very reliable and it had to be. It was replaced when the Inter-Drain and BRON tile plows came around

C2C0B108-56BC-437E-B2AA-63F385A2BD6C.png

The tile plow that is mounted on there is a genius design in my and the old school guys book. It's called a "Badger" and uses rollers mounted in angled slots to pitch the plow for grading and uses very little hydraulic power to grade since it's mechanical. Also graded more precisely than the more common cantilever plows they use today in my opinion because it can grade more smoothly in smaller increments. They don't make the Badger plows  anymore and the guys that got to use them were sad to see them go because the new plows came with the new cantilever design and the Badgers aren't made anymore. I didn't personally run the Badger plows mounted to the TD25 but I did on an Inter-Drain. In peat ground you locked the rollers in the middle or level position and let the hydraulics do the grading otherwise the "boot" that the tile comes out of drags too deep and throws the tile off grade. This is another area that it was better than the cantilever because it's easier to keep the tile on grade. I don't know why the picture is in black and white it was taken in the late 70s early 80s.I used it from their web page. 

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6 hours ago, Big Bud guy said:

Planetary steering was invented by Rolling White who founded Clectrac back in 1910s.  

IIRC that would be the planerary differential wouldn't it?  And that had the disadvantage that it didn't allow pivot turns.  Unless, as the stories have it, some Olivers had compressed air assist on the brakes and could be made to do them by cranking down the pressure control valves.  For a while.

Take your pick - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_steering

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7 hours ago, F-301066460puller said:

That was not what I experienced as a parts man in both ag and ce.

I worked at Altorfer in Urbana IL parts department where we did ag, ce, truck engines and generator engines. Then worked at Altorfer ag products in Clinton IL right after the agco buyout. 

CE guys didn't give rip if it took some time to get a part. Only thing they wanted right away were hoses. Almost never got called in after hours and weekends. (Only for ag parts before ag products was open)

Finished my parts department career at Birkey's CE in Urbana. Same deal.

Both horrible work experiences. Could write a book if I hadn't blocked that part of my life out of my memory lol

Farmers were THE WORST. They expected you to anticipate when they ran a rock through their combine. Constantly  called in after hours and weekends. Custom application companies were just as bad. 

I would work as a Walmart greeter before working parts departments again.

Well being a parts salesman is the last job I would take to be honest however it was the job you took.Too many times parts people shouldn't be in that career. Put you in my shoes I buy a new machine from your dealership.The salesman touts customer service AFTER the sale,extensive,well stocked,knowledgeable PARTS, service departments,yada,yada yada....Then I spend the money, they act like they don't know you and can't even stock a belt,bearing,thermostat for a popular machine that there is many of in the area.They have to watch their inventory they say.Yea right ,they just don't want to spend the money to HAVE a inventory, they want our money first. Sorry about after hours but farmers work when others don't so there is food on EVERYONE'S table.And by the way the best dealerships have a stocked parts department,answer the phone after hours,stay in business and flourish. The ones that don't shrink,die and go out of business. We have and had both in our area. 

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40 minutes ago, Jacka said:

Well being a parts salesman is the last job I would take to be honest however it was the job you took.Too many times parts people shouldn't be in that career. Put you in my shoes I buy a new machine from your dealership.The salesman touts customer service AFTER the sale,extensive,well stocked,knowledgeable PARTS, service departments,yada,yada yada....Then I spend the money, they act like they don't know you and can't even stock a belt,bearing,thermostat for a popular machine that there is many of in the area.They have to watch their inventory they say.Yea right ,they just don't want to spend the money to HAVE a inventory, they want our money first. Sorry about after hours but farmers work when others don't so there is food on EVERYONE'S table.And by the way the best dealerships have a stocked parts department,answer the phone after hours,stay in business and flourish. The ones that don't shrink,die and go out of business. We have and had both in our area. 

Salesman will tell you anything to get a sale. I grew up on a small farm I know how it goes. That being said the farmers were the rudest, pushiest, most arrogant customers I dealt with. Not ALL of them mind you bet a good deal of them. The worst ones were the ones who have never done anything but farm their entire lives. These are MY experiences in MY area and that was 20 years ago when I didn't know any better. Your results may very. Dealerships are not what they were 50-60 years ago just like farming isn't what it was back then. It's a business and businesses want to turn a profit or they go away.

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9 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

I don’t think it is exactly fair to say it was unpopular, and it lives on today. True, the construction line ceased to be IH but went on to be Dresser with almost no change to the equipment. And even right up through the mid 2000’s it was mighty similar in a lot of ways to its predecessors, right down to the model nomenclature. 
I can still go into the local Dressta dealer (yes we have one) and get parts for IH dozers, and there are still a bunch of IH and Dresser machines around earning their keep every day. It is true that they did not dominate the TLB market at a time when Deere, Cat, Case and Ford were cranking them out, but they made some of the toughest crawlers and loaders on the market. 
 

https://dressta.com/machines/dozers/td-25m/

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Is the TD 25 the only dozer Dressta makes?

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7 minutes ago, jeeper61 said:

Is the TD 25 the only dozer Dressta makes?

No, 15-40 and a bunch of pipeline equipment. They seem to have dropped the TD8M but they had it as of a couple years ago. I think Komatsu narrowed down their range of products when they had them. 

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Hot topic this morning, to bad I'm running late, will get back to this. 

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3 hours ago, Jacka said:

Well being a parts salesman is the last job I would take to be honest however it was the job you took.Too many times parts people shouldn't be in that career. Put you in my shoes I buy a new machine from your dealership.The salesman touts customer service AFTER the sale,extensive,well stocked,knowledgeable PARTS, service departments,yada,yada yada....Then I spend the money, they act like they don't know you and can't even stock a belt,bearing,thermostat for a popular machine that there is many of in the area.They have to watch their inventory they say.Yea right ,they just don't want to spend the money to HAVE a inventory, they want our money first. Sorry about after hours but farmers work when others don't so there is food on EVERYONE'S table.And by the way the best dealerships have a stocked parts department,answer the phone after hours,stay in business and flourish. The ones that don't shrink,die and go out of business. We have and had both in our area. 

  What to stock and how many each, business hours, and training is a function of the owner.  Being a parts department employee is often a default life decision in that most people do not grow up saying they want to work a parts counter.  Just something that happens.  

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10 hours ago, 766 Man said:

  Around here there were many JD skidders but I don't recall ever seeing an IH.  

JD sold quite a few skidders here but they didn't hold up in this area until they bought timber Jack.

Several friends are professional loggers and some ran ih skidders up till around 2000. They really liked them but parts became a problem and they were getting old.

I still know an amateur logger who runs an old IH skidder.

Round here loggers are very hard on equipment. 

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14 hours ago, ray54 said:

Even with the D11 Cat I believe Komatsu made a bigger one.

Cat D11 is their biggest at 900 hp. Komatsu builds the D575, which brings 1250 hp to the table.

Speaking of D11's, I'll have to snap a couple pics, we have one at the shop in for a rebuild. 26+ yrs @ Cat & this is the first one I've ever seen in person. The 8500 Lb, V12, C32 reman engine is sitting outside my office window - It's kinda impressive. 

20231012_185850.thumb.jpg.609562227c38a7edb710007d5e15575f.jpg

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19 hours ago, acem said:

IH construction was very popular here up until the end of IH construction. Craco international was a strong dealer selling trucks, ag and construction. Still sell trucks. Cih was a fool to give the CIH dealership to the case dealer who went bankrupt a few years later...

Still some IH equipment running here but it's on farms and other slow jobs.

IH log skidders were well liked machines. The JD skidders were not well though of until they bought timber Jack.

 

I BEG YOU WRONG. THERE WAS LOTS MORE JOHN DEERE SKIDDERS OUT THE VERUS IH. EVEN THOUGH BOTH WERE VERY GOOD MACHINES. JOHN DEERE COSTS MORE TO MAINTAIN THAN THE IH MACHINES.. I OWNED BOTH AT ONE TIME. THE IH PULRED BETTER AND WEIGHT MORE.

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6 hours ago, farmall666 said:

I BEG YOU WRONG. THERE WAS LOTS MORE JOHN DEERE SKIDDERS OUT THE VERUS IH. EVEN THOUGH BOTH WERE VERY GOOD MACHINES. JOHN DEERE COSTS MORE TO MAINTAIN THAN THE IH MACHINES.. I OWNED BOTH AT ONE TIME. THE IH PULRED BETTER AND WEIGHT MORE.

I've never owned or operated a log skidder. I have several good friends who have been loggers for generations. I'm just repeating what they told me on numerous occasions.

I expect sales are very dependent on the dealers. How they hold up may be related to our location. The Ozark and ouachita mountains are steep and rocky in places. The ground doesn't freeze in winter. It can be a difficult environment.

One friend has rolled several semi trucks loaded with logs when springs broke while going around switchbacks on mountain highways. It's amazing he survived after rolling down the side of the mountain. The strongly built headache rack saved his life.

They really like the timber Jack JD skidders.

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