Mike56073 Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 Picked up the parts today to rebuild my 966 motor. I’ve been waiting since May for the kit. Started going together tonight and discovered they forgot to order new rod bolts. Do i reuse the originals, or order new bolts and wait? It’s going to be a rainy weekend here, I was hoping to spend it in the shop rebuilding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIHTECH Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 Good practice to replace rod bolts. Use your originals to build the engine, then install your new ones before installing pan. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HydroTek Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 Never have I ever got new bolts for a 400 series engine May be "good practice" but was not done in my shop , by me or any of the other guys 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoshoe Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 Ditto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerFixEmUp Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 Replaced them all for over 30 years now. Heard of too many ventilated blocks. after an overhaul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acem Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 Can you still get good ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stronger800 Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 That’s what I was thinking. Most motors have only been taken apart once, maybe twice by now. I’d think an old school quality bolt should be able to handle that. We’ve never even considered it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale560 Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 I have said it before on here and will get flamed for it but the bottom end of the 400 series is a weak point. Have seen many with the rods out the side. Mostly from high rpm though. But anything you can do to make them survive helps. Pretty much common practice to change rod bolts on mid range diesel engines 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HydroTek Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 Only ever seen one with a rod thru the side -- and that was on a new one put a new rod in and welded a patch on the block -- still running today Plenty with spun bearings -- but that is a different problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale560 Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 6 minutes ago, HydroTek said: Only ever seen one with a rod thru the side -- and that was on a new one put a new rod in and welded a patch on the block -- still running today Plenty with spun bearings -- but that is a different problem Over the years about 50 dt engines with the block ventilated to 2 jd engines. On a IH only a couple times block was fixable. It is always the front lot back 2 cylinders. More so the front and rod comes out left side and hits the injector pump that usually was just rebuilt. The worst block I have ever seen was a l10 Cummins on a mixer truck. They need to be unloaded when start knocking and they blow up spectacular. Had a l10 and a 3306 cat blow up and basically break the bottom end out of block. Find a used engine swap them out then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerFixEmUp Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 These 1066 to 1566's turn 2800 RPM high idle. Like Dale said if one of the front 2 cylinders go they trash the injection pump. Hauled several in that way. Just driving down the road. Especially if the governor is getting weak and over revs. Last rod bolts I got were WP and $8 each. Cheap insurance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acem Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 I've been around a lot of 400 series ag engines but never seen a thrown rod. Seen several spun bearings though. The JD engines tend to break cranks round here. Sometimes they will still run with the broken crank. I don't understand how... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torque Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 FYI, IH wants you to torque and loosen new bolts 3 times to seat them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale560 Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 2 minutes ago, acem said: I've been around a lot of 400 series ag engines but never seen a thrown rod. Seen several spun bearings though. The JD engines tend to break cranks round here. Sometimes they will still run with the broken crank. I don't understand how... Almost every combine up here had a rebuilt engine. They would make 3500 to 5000 tops without a bearing roll and they would blow up badly. Maybe has to do with seasonable colder temps up here but way back then those combines were only used in the warm months. It isn’t so much the size of bearings but the feet per second of bearing speed that gets high when you are wide open 2850 high idle. The formula that figures it out gives IH engine almost 40 percent more bearing speed than comparable engines. It is almost a pet peeve of mine when you watch shows on hot rod tv or motortrend or the magazine articles when you read them about their rebuilt or modified engines giving rod troubles on the Dyno. I just read an article the other day comparing a LS build to a small block build to see which is better engine platform. The small block blew up on a dyno run to what they traced back to a loose rod bolt that wasn’t seated in rod all the way when torqued. I know we all make mistakes but I don’t make excuses for stuff like that. As an experienced person putting an engine together everything should be double or triple checked. I know before I put any pan on a engine with my fingers on it. I always line up the arrows and numbers on main caps, and numbers all correspond on rods. Last thing is quick double check of torque after the first double check sequence. Then you take your hand and wiggle rods back and forth. This verify no tight rods or pins and spin engine with bar to make sure mains aren’t tight. The main check is done also before any rods or pistons are in to this just tells you stuff is good along the way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 4 hours ago, stronger800 said: That’s what I was thinking. Most motors have only been taken apart once, maybe twice by now. Lmao....are you certain about that? Back in the 70's and 80's some of these tractors should have had a zipper installed on the engine. They're great engines, but people used them to their full potential and they paid for it. Travis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale560 Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 1 hour ago, Sparky said: Lmao....are you certain about that? Back in the 70's and 80's some of these tractors should have had a zipper installed on the engine. They're great engines, but people used them to their full potential and they paid for it. Travis Dad had a 1466 white cab he bought used that got a new engine in 1976 it got traded on a 76 1586 after engine was installed. That one locked up because a clutch was replaced at IH dealer and mechanic beat the rear seal up badly. It popped out and ran the engine out of oil. The 966 we have is a 74 model red cab and dad acquired it in 1985 . There was a SRC reman in it already. The 1086 we sold 2 years ago sat in a shed for almost 20 years. It had the original owners manual in it sold new locally. The engine had a major overhaul already before 1992 in a 1978 tractor that had 6000 some hours I believe. The 1586 we bought at same sale didn’t set as long but it has a SRC reman installed. That being said we had a 1850 IH truck dt466 with 230,000 and 10,000 hours on digital gauge that engine when we broke a rocker arm I believe had original red valve cover gasket yet and a neighbors 5488 had its original motor until last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stronger800 Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 I pull a hay tedder with a M+W 856 and pull small square balers with a fair bit more Hp than that. 1466’s run (small) 10-11’ discbines. We remove original bearings proactively. Lots of oil changes. And nothing is worked to anywhere near its capacity. I realize others operate differently. I know guys with 15k hours on them, never opened up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacka Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 10 hours ago, Sparky said: Lmao....are you certain about that? Back in the 70's and 80's some of these tractors should have had a zipper installed on the engine. They're great engines, but people used them to their full potential and they paid for it. Travis I agree but not to their "full potential",but way past with their fingers in the injection pump, cranking them up saying look at me,look at me.I had quite a few 400 series,only one I ever had to overhaul was to to coolant O ring failure.I am not saying if they are totally shot after years of normal use they will fly apart but I would rather take a chance on a IH400 series than about anything else.But governor them right and they will stand up to a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike56073 Posted September 24 Author Share Posted September 24 I ended up ordering a new set of bolts, decided it was cheap insurance. They’ll be here on Tuesday. Figured it’s been apart in the shop since May, so another 3 days won’t kill me!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Beale Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 13 minutes ago, Mike56073 said: I ended up ordering a new set of bolts, decided it was cheap insurance. They’ll be here on Tuesday. Figured it’s been apart in the shop since May, so another 3 days won’t kill me!! For an rainy day experiment put some of the old ones in a jig of some sort where you can ofer-tighten them a bit , see what happens and report back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacka Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 I have a question on this topic for those with more experience than me (which I know are many).Is there stress on the rod bolts that would really make them stretch or weaken the same as headbolts.I know whenever I overhauled a engine with headbolts verse studs I ALWAYS used new bolts because of the stretch factor and loss of temper.Rod bolts really aren't under that kinda of stress I believe unless I am wrong.I know there is a lot of movement with the crank but unless a bearing let's go and there is slop to ruin threads or something I don't see the need for new rod bolts.Is there something that you guys see or know that would make new the risk of lower quality bolts versus OEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stronger800 Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 I will read and think about any replies to that as well. Always iinterested in learning. Out hear redneckVille, even the the local shops, I don’t think anybody replaces a bolt that’s not broken, on about anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearclash Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 2 hours ago, Jacka said: Rod bolts really aren't under that kinda of stress I believe unless I am wrong. There is substantial tensile loading of the rod cap bolts during the piston acceleration away from top dead center on the intake stroke of 4 stroke/cycle engines. 2 stroke/cycle engines don’t have that negative loading unless they are turning over but not firing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ole 815 Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 4 hours ago, Mike56073 said: I ended up ordering a new set of bolts, decided it was cheap insurance. They’ll be here on Tuesday. Figured it’s been apart in the shop since May, so another 3 days won’t kill me!! When you get the new ones, could you take a pic of them next to an old one and post. When I overhauled my 1586. (20 years ago) I got new rod bolts. I compared them with the original ones... didn't even put them in, I used the original ones. The new ones were jus weak looking. Didn't have nice chamfers around the head/washer area or shank. When I worked at IH Dealer in 80's, we never replaced rod bolts when doing overhauls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale560 Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 You seem to find more of the angled cap and rod assemblies tear the bolts than the straight bolt or stud assembly’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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