IH1586 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 The engine oil in my two oil filter canisters has been draining back into the oil pan after shutting the engine off. I notice the oil level varying and could not figure out until this recent oil change. One canister was almost empty and the other was approximately half empty. This is after sitting still for over 12 hours. Does anyone else have this problem? Makes checking oil level very difficult. Thanks, IH-1586 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stronger800 Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 I’m interested in what anybody has to say about this. I would have said it was physically impossible. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfred54 Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 Have never heard of this issue before. Your thinking the crankcase is siphoning the oil out of the canisters?? Have not heard of D361 creating a vacuum after shut down. If crankcase breather was plugged should create pressure not vacuum. Can't see it happening. Good luck with it. I'm with stronger800,see what others have to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel Doctor Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 Never heard of this one? There must be a leak somewhere that is allowing air to get into the system. The air gets in and the oil drains back. The oil pressure is probably then slow to come up on start up. There are a lot of pipes and the oil pump on the outside of the engine. Any oil leaks showing? Start by fixing them. Those o-rings on the oil pump piping are about 60 years old and may be the culprit. I gave seen vacuum leaks that will not leak fluid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Kirsch Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 Does your 806 have the stock engine in it? Oil filters on the LEFT side, hanging down. There is physically no way I can think of for the oil to "drain" back, or be "sucked" out in any significant quantity. For that to happen there would have to be some sort of straw or tube running to the bottom of the oil filter housing. Even if there was a vacuum it could only pull a little bit off the top. I would suspect that your oil filters are not being filled in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acem Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 Is your 806 diesel or gas/lpg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel Doctor Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 14 minutes ago, acem said: Is your 806 diesel or gas/lpg? Dual filters was diesel only. Gas and LP had only one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HydroTek Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 Would be good to have the information in the opening post -- would slow down the guessing Anyways , ...have you noticed that sometimes when you start one of this series engine, the oil pressure takes longer to "come up" than others ? I have never checked the filters before starting a tractor to bring it into the shop -- may have been a good idea tho I can see the core tube in the filter acting as a straw -- the oil is gonna want to siphon back to the oil pan -- and if the gears in the pump are "loose" then there is your path -- not only draining the filters , but also the oil cooler What I have seen is excessive side clearance on the oil pump gears -- that pump was pretty loose when new , but wear over time will make it looser pretty easy to set the gap , since it is an external pump -- you do need to remove the pump tho 3-5 thousands gear side clearance makes a big difference on how quickly the pump picks up oil the housing and gears , I have found are not machined very closely -- so must have been a pretty loose spec on them New shaft bushings -- match the gear lengths -- and sand the housing on a flat plate seems to help a lot This is all hand work -- you are not taking off much material Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brahamfireman Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 My only question is why are you taking the canisters off and checking them???? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IH1586 Posted September 17 Author Share Posted September 17 Hello, thanks for the replies. The oil pressure does come up slow and sits at 40 psi full throttle and working. At idle it hovers around 10 to 15 psi. I always run the idle to get 20 psi while cooling down. In general, the engine doesn't use a lot of oil and the horsepower is decent. If I thought, it was bad I would have someone OH it but it's not there yet. This tractor sits at my brother's farm and gets used on a grain vac. Therefore, I do not always see it in operation. Based on the suggestions above on my next visit to the tractor's location I will remove the oil canisters and check the oil level. I am sure that the filters are not installed wrong, but I will check to be sure. IH1586 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel Doctor Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 On 9/15/2023 at 3:36 PM, brahamfireman said: My only question is why are you taking the canisters off and checking them???? If the tractor needs an oil change and has been setting there for hours, what better time. As much as possible has drained into the pan. Pull the plug and leave it for an hour. You pull the filters and you found it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerFixEmUp Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 Are they still cartridge style filters or converted to spin on? And the spring is under the filter and not on top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian S Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 I don't post often on here, but I have an 806 that has been doing the exact same thing for a while now. If I go out and pull the dipstick right now, it will be over full. Fire it up, let it warm up, shut it off, come back 15-20 minutes later and its right where the oil level should be. If I went out the next morning and check it again, it will be over full. I have noticed the canisters being half full or less as well at oil change intervals. I don't have any engine oil leaks on this particular tractor nor does it seem to burn any oil. I have just made sure to be diligent about pulling the dipstick and not working it until its warmed up. Its ran great all spring and summer minus the leaky RD injection pump. A buddy of mine at work has had a same issue with his Dodge pickup with a 12 valve in it. He's the only other guy I've heard ever mention the filters not being full at oil changes. I'm curious to know if anyone has any solutions as well. Seems really odd that it would siphon oil back into the pan somehow but that seems to be where the oil is going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerFixEmUp Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 My 806 takes a few seconds to prime the oil pump and kick off the light when cold. But it has over 16000 hours on it too. Oil pump's never been off and we've owned it since around 1500 hours in 1971. Sleeves and pistons were replaced at 13xxx hours. They were original until then. There's an oil pressure valve behind the rear header of the engine oil cooler that's below the level of the filters. 15 - 19 in the picture. Someone mentioned low oil pressure. The spec hot is 38-55 psi at rated rpm. Since these tractors only had oil and amp lights the oil pressure is usually unknown. Also the safety valve is in the oil pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Kirsch Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 Thinking about it now the 856 takes a few seconds for the oil light to go out. The oil lights don't go out immediately on the 656 (C263), 756 (D360), or 5220 (3.9L CDC/Cummins) either. Never really thought about it any further than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drysleeves Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 18 minutes ago, Matt Kirsch said: Thinking about it now the 856 takes a few seconds for the oil light to go out. The oil lights don't go out immediately on the 656 (C263), 756 (D360), or 5220 (3.9L CDC/Cummins) either. Never really thought about it any further than that. That has also been my experience with the 361-407 engine platform, and it's entirely pro forma with zero issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoshoe Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 Safety valve in oil pump but regulator valve in block behind oil cooler base. One of those had a hole through it on the 8's not on the 12's. Anyone experience this with a 12? I can see the hole contributing to this if in regulator. Filter element still has to act as a dip tube though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel Doctor Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 The book states the "non-drain back lubricating oil pump" with the oil going through dual "no drain back" "full flow" filters. Page #1 of the GENERAL in the right column. It makes me wonder if IH cheapened the filters or we are using the wrong ones without the anti drain back option. This is what is happening, the oil is draining back. The 323827R91 is what Case/IH calls for today and there is no mention of any anti drain back. It also looks like 279994R91 is the old part # under IH. It don't say if this is an anti-drain back filter or not. It would be nice to find a new old stock filter and see if that has the anti-drain back in it or not and if the new ones do? The GENERAL says the oil pump is a "non-drain back lubricating oil pump". I see no specific valve in the pump for that but it can be built in by the engineers. Right now, the new filters don't stand the smell test. Now, I assume everyone uses a different brand of filter. I checked a lot of filters and none mentioned the anti-drain back. I am leaning towards Case/IH saying we can save dollars by not incorporating the anti drain back option. The jobbers said, if Case/IH quit it, we can too. What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerFixEmUp Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 Do they have a valve like that in a cartridge style filter? I use Case IH or Fleetguard filters on my 706 and 806. I tapped on the filter canisters last night on the 806 and can hear they are full of oil. More of a thud than a pinging noise in technical terms. 🥺 The 706 with the 282 diesel has the filter inverted from the 361 and I can't say that one's ever drained either. But they have a check valve in the filter base. 9 10 and 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HydroTek Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 Gotta take that in the context of the times when you are comparing advertisement "features" of the tractor model The inverted oil filters provided "non-drain back" feature -- with ease of replacement unlike the the main competitor that required removal of a cover on the side of the oil pan and had startup oil pressure problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drysleeves Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 16 minutes ago, HydroTek said: Gotta take that in the context of the times when you are comparing advertisement "features" of the tractor model The inverted oil filters provided "non-drain back" feature -- with ease of replacement unlike the the main competitor that required removal of a cover on the side of the oil pan and had startup oil pressure problems That setup is a joke. They are a real pain in the arse to change with that goofy seal arrangement but with all the largely manufactured hubris surrounding the non-failure failure of the 560 almost nobody noticed. Soon after the 20 Series arrived and they were off to the races. Still have to return to the actual IH fatal flaw when John McCaffrey cannibalized the R & D budget in the late 1940's and the 7-806 transmission in the 1950 prototype was subsequently delayed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Kirsch Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 Have we even established HOW the oil gets pulled out of these downward-hanging filter housings? Seems like the filter would have to be absolutely clogged with sludge in order to act as a straw. Otherwise this is breaking the laws of physics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brahamfireman Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 20 minutes ago, Matt Kirsch said: Have we even established HOW the oil gets pulled out of these downward-hanging filter housings? Seems like the filter would have to be absolutely clogged with sludge in order to act as a straw. Otherwise this is breaking the laws of physics. I fully agree. My assumption on the varying oil level on the dip stick is the tractor isn't perfectly level. As for the filters, seams like a problem that's non existent, since no one would ever know unless you pulled the canisters off. Also something for the OP to remember, the MCV circuit uses the same oil light. so if the MCV is slow to prime the light stays on for awhile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stronger800 Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 Anti Drain back valve, in a completely hollow see right through the center inverted cartridge filter… lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian S Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 I cannot speak for the original poster, I can only speak for what I've seen with my tractors. I have a pair of 806s, both diesels, both running Case IH cartridge filters. One has the issue, one doesn't. Both parked on level ground, its pretty flat in general here. The one in question is sitting on concrete in the shop right now so that would eliminate the question of checking the dipstick on an uneven surface. I only put about 100 hours a year on either tractor, they get the engine oil and filters changed in the spring before field work commences. Obviously that is the time I've notices the canisters being half full, I don't have a reason to open them up mid season. My oil lights do work on both tractors, I have not noticed anything unusual about them as far as oil pressure is concerned, but I do not have an auxiliary gauge on the tractor in question. Might be a good idea to put one on it just to get a better understanding of what is going on at start up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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