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Oops! Better pay the hunting lease!


Rawleigh99

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2 hours ago, Jacka said:

I was raised like you.I never would walk,hunt ride my bicycle (we didn't have 4 wheelers,dirt bikes etc) when I was a kid on neighbors or anyone 's ground without having permission. To this day I respect my neighbors and thier property. It helps that we been neighbors for 35 years and more.But I had run ins with locals during deer season. They somehow hunt on the neighbors ground, since they can their they think they can on me.Most are the grown boys hanger ons. Riff raff,etc. I been cussed out ,tried to have pushed off my own property. Well that doesn't fly well with me.The riff raff first would be sent scurrying boys would get a earful and the dad would say see now why I don't hunt with them anymore).It's a shame some people act like ingrates and they own you,to me they are just bullies.They ruin it for everyone. My state has Millions of public ground to hunt on but most hunters are too lazy to walk in. They want to pull in your driveway, unload their ATV and ride across your fields to get to their $3000 tree stand blind.

Exactly right. We might go find a 4 wheeler if we shot something but normally dragged it out by ourselves using our (now obsolete) safety ropes that we wrapped around ourselves in our climbing deer stands. I always packed my stand in and out with me, especially on other people’s property. We let The small bucks go and never saw the big ones 😊 A couple does each year went into the freezer or were donated to charity and given to someone that needed it. 

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I have always respected posted property 

In some states if it is not posted then it assumes permission but most require written permission for hunting or ATVing

IMO it would be better not to lease 

Instead the permission to hunt should be done on a daily basis that way the commitment ends at the end of the day and this would require more frequent dialogue and issues can be addressed frequently 

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8 minutes ago, jeeper61 said:

I have always respected posted property 

In some states if it is not posted then it assumes permission but most require written permission for hunting or ATVing

IMO it would be better not to lease 

Instead the permission to hunt should be done on a daily basis that way the commitment ends at the end of the day and this would require more frequent dialogue and issues can be addressed frequently 

I totally agree. I hate leased hunting. I know lots of landowners like the idea because the leaser does the patrolling of the trespassers. Makes for extremely poor neighbors in my opinion. 
I love the idea that I asked for permission from you in the morning, I stop by on my way out and visit. Tell you what I got, saw, and heard. Ask for permission for the next morning or weekend, which ever is the case. 
The leased deal seems to always end up with someone getting their feelings hurt or the lease guy thinking that they can do whatever they want. 

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We have our own hunting ground and have had to kick people out all the time. My observation, neighbors can turn into a holes and a holes want to be your neighbor. All over a fricken deer, not worth it in my book. I haven't hunted in 15 years because of it. Now my kids want to hunt and am willing to take them, but that is the only reason I would hunt again. 

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8 minutes ago, JaredT said:

We have our own hunting ground and have had to kick people out all the time. My observation, neighbors can turn into a holes and a holes want to be your neighbor. All over a fricken deer, not worth it in my book. I haven't hunted in 15 years because of it. Now my kids want to hunt and am willing to take them, but that is the only reason I would hunt again. 

Cant agree more on this. Reason Dad, brother and I dont hunt. I refer to November here in Michigan @hole season.

We used to allow by verbal permission until we had a could of major confrontations between hunter groups and involving us. You would give permission to one guy, he would let his buddy's join along which then would let their buddies tag along which would allow their buddies tag along soon you were 5 passes away from the original permission. They would start bickering amongst themselves and eventually they were in the yard arguing at us and amongst themselves. One time it really got interesting. Even been once accused of tresspassing on my own land by someone who was tagging along hunting ( I wasn't even hunting, but cutting wood). All this has really soured me on hunting season. Just a Royal PITA. 

2 hours ago, 766 Man said:

  Leasing opens the doors to a legal Pandora's box.  The land owner takes on more liability than they would in an informal agreement.  

No informal agreement will not get you 6 inches in any court when it comes to lawsuits. You own it, something happens and unless its in writing, it becomes he said, he said and if injuries occur you are liable unless you can prove they weren't supposed to be there or you warned them about the dangers. How do you prove that by word of mouth? You don’t in court. No writting, its on you. And chances are you lose.

 

3 hours ago, Lazy WP said:

The leased deal seems to always end up with someone getting their feelings hurt or the lease guy thinking that they can do whatever they want. 

That seems around here to happen no matter what method you use. Its inevitable as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west.

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I have only had 2 bad hunters and 3 different confrontations. 1 guy, my old boss gave him permission, Marv passed away and the following year Shane gave the guy permission again. Marvs long standing rule was absolutely no outside 4 wheeler. If a hunter got a deer that was in an area that was not accessible with a pickup they were to come to me and I would either drag it out with my horse or 4 wheeler. First year Marv was gone, this jerk showed up with 4 4 wheelers. Didn’t take long to get rid of him, but it caused some serious issues with Shane, who was my current boss. 
The other guys were from Michigan and never had permission to hunt on any of our ground. I ran them off twice and the third time, my neighbor held them at gun point until the game warden showed up. They left a very sour taste towards any hunter who had Michigan tags. 
 

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36 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

Cant agree more on this. Reason Dad, brother and I dont hunt. I refer to November here in Michigan @hole season.

We used to allow by verbal permission until we had a could of major confrontations between hunter groups and involving us. You would give permission to one guy, he would let his buddy's join along which then would let their buddies tag along which would allow their buddies tag along soon you were 5 passes away from the original permission. They would start bickering amongst themselves and eventually they were in the yard arguing at us and amongst themselves. One time it really got interesting. Even been once accused of tresspassing on my own land by someone who was tagging along hunting ( I wasn't even hunting, but cutting wood). All this has really soured me on hunting season. Just a Royal PITA. 

No informal agreement will not get you 6 inches in any court when it comes to lawsuits. You own it, something happens and unless its in writing, it becomes he said, he said and if injuries occur you are liable unless you can prove they weren't supposed to be there or you warned them about the dangers. How do you prove that by word of mouth? You don’t in court. No writting, its on you. And chances are you lose.

 

That seems around here to happen no matter what method you use. Its inevitable as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west.

  Guys having permission in turn giving permission to buddies who initially had NO permission has been a MAJOR problem for me.  And they usually have enemies among the neighbors or others prior to being a "guest."  I've had guys try to badger me off of my own land.  I've had guys tell me that their grandpa hunted there (before my family owned it) back in 1971 so it means they are grandfathered in.  

  Not sure of what you are saying in response to my quote.  Leasing at least in NY puts the property owner on the hook for all kinds of liability.  You are responsible if a guy trips over a rock in the middle of a field.  You are responsible if the guy's ATV catches an unexpected rut in a driveway tossing the driver off violently.  The starting point where trespassing is concerned is the land owner is not liable for the injuries or harm of the trespasser.  Often things can go haywire in court over an injury or worse but if a person does not have written permission a land owner has a decent chance in court.   I don't put anything in writing and it is understood that a hunter even with verbal permission is on their own if something happens.  Anything in writing can be used against a property owner and I would guess that in most cases a land owner does not put anything in writing because it would be a starting point for a potential lawsuit.  

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32 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  Guys having permission in turn giving permission to buddies who initially had NO permission has been a MAJOR problem for me.  And they usually have enemies among the neighbors or others prior to being a "guest."  I've had guys try to badger me off of my own land.  I've had guys tell me that their grandpa hunted there (before my family owned it) back in 1971 so it means they are grandfathered in.  

  Not sure of what you are saying in response to my quote.  Leasing at least in NY puts the property owner on the hook for all kinds of liability.  You are responsible if a guy trips over a rock in the middle of a field.  You are responsible if the guy's ATV catches an unexpected rut in a driveway tossing the driver off violently.  The starting point where trespassing is concerned is the land owner is not liable for the injuries or harm of the trespasser.  Often things can go haywire in court over an injury or worse but if a person does not have written permission a land owner has a decent chance in court.   I don't put anything in writing and it is understood that a hunter even with verbal permission is on their own if something happens.  Anything in writing can be used against a property owner and I would guess that in most cases a land owner does not put anything in writing because it would be a starting point for a potential lawsuit.  

Michigan is different. Here if it isn't in writing you are guilty until proven innocent. Deer hunting is almost treated as a attractive nuisance. You have property assume someone wants to hunt it so unless you are patrolling it like the Korean DMZ the assumption is you know someone is either on it or wants on it. It is better to give someone permission, then have it spelled out crystal clear for all to see. If it goes to h-ll you can point out the terms and boundaries so they can't wiggle out. Otherwise they plead ignorance and its a he said, he said and no proof unless you have multiple witnesses that says Otherwise. Even with witnesses a good lawyer will possibly shred you saying he didn’t understand. That signature is a bit more binding than saying i don't remember that.

Around my neck of the woods nothing is done without paperwork spelled out in writing. Too many stunts between the Oilfield days and some real crooked land leases for farming. 

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1 hour ago, Lazy WP said:

I have only had 2 bad hunters and 3 different confrontations. 1 guy, my old boss gave him permission, Marv passed away and the following year Shane gave the guy permission again. Marvs long standing rule was absolutely no outside 4 wheeler. If a hunter got a deer that was in an area that was not accessible with a pickup they were to come to me and I would either drag it out with my horse or 4 wheeler. First year Marv was gone, this jerk showed up with 4 4 wheelers. Didn’t take long to get rid of him, but it caused some serious issues with Shane, who was my current boss. 
The other guys were from Michigan and never had permission to hunt on any of our ground. I ran them off twice and the third time, my neighbor held them at gun point until the game warden showed up. They left a very sour taste towards any hunter who had Michigan tags. 
 

We are like that with Georgia, Alabama, and especially Mississippi tags.  There are many great people from those states but the hunters that show up here cause nothing but trouble.  I live in Illinois and I’m sure people have stories of IL hunters doing the same where they live. The point is to be 1) respectful 2) ethical when you are anywhere hunting. I have never hunted in another state personally. If I do, it will more than likely be on public ground.  To me hunting on someone else’s ground is more special than my own. There should be no trace of me left there and I should treat it better than my own. 

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7 hours ago, 766 Man said:

  I'm glad you used the word bully as any other description would be too kind.  In some ways you PA guys have it worse as adverse possession is still law in your state.  It just invites bullies to pry their business on others.  

Yes,I got 26,000 acres of Pennsylvania public game lands across the road but hard access to a point. Roads are built in but it takes effort. I also think the game commission pushes the hunters on private land,farmers because bigger deer and they can sell more licenses. I have no time at all for game wardens or the commission. I don't bother them,hunt ONLY on my land lawfully, they can't do a thing,improve my life in anyway. Just keep their paying customers on public lands and we all will be happier. 

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1 hour ago, Reichow7120 said:

Michigan is different. Here if it isn't in writing you are guilty until proven innocent. Deer hunting is almost treated as a attractive nuisance. You have property assume someone wants to hunt it so unless you are patrolling it like the Korean DMZ the assumption is you know someone is either on it or wants on it. It is better to give someone permission, then have it spelled out crystal clear for all to see. If it goes to h-ll you can point out the terms and boundaries so they can't wiggle out. Otherwise they plead ignorance and its a he said, he said and no proof unless you have multiple witnesses that says Otherwise. Even with witnesses a good lawyer will possibly shred you saying he didn’t understand. That signature is a bit more binding than saying i don't remember that.

Around my neck of the woods nothing is done without paperwork spelled out in writing. Too many stunts between the Oilfield days and some real crooked land leases for farming. 

  The problem with the Michigan approach is that the plaintiff's lawyer will always argue that the terms are ambiguous or a lease should carry a warranty either of which would be in favor of the plaintiff.  New York used to be as bad but the law changed so an attractive nuisance is not allowable in most cases.  New York used to allow adverse possession which amounts to squatter's rights but that changed around 15 years ago.  I can only believe things changed here because somebody high and mighty in New York politics got bit on the tail in lawsuit and pushed or allowed for a change to occur.  Maybe some bigwig in your state will get bit hard opening the door for some common sense legislation.  Certainly, things are not perfect here and a landowner needs to be as vigilant as ever in regards to trespassers and liability.  The last thing you want to happen is your name found in a legal textbook where you got beat for all to see.  

  A landowner is still expected to be vigilant in the eyes of the law here.  Law enforcement and the game warden will not lift a finger to help a landowner if his ground is not posted.  Letting a problem fester only hurts the landowner so once he is aware of a problem he needs to deal with it in short owner even if that interferes with watching football or painting a tractor.  The last thing that a landowner wants is to be in court with the offender claiming he had been on that land numerous times without anything being said back with nothing in concrete to dispute that.  

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Looks like they should've paid the man his money or left, one or the other. In my line of work, non-payment of rent gets you evicted. 

As far as hunting, I've hunted for many years. Mostly on family ground, and on a few good neighbors as well. There was a time that no one really cared who hunted their places, especially quail and rabbit hunters. On many a frosty morning in my youth, I'd get up before daylight and set off with my shotgun and old Queen to see how many birds we could find. It never made a difference whose place we were on, and if we happened on someone, they just wanted to know how many birds we'd got. No one ran you off back then. Then again, we knew everyone in the area in those days. Now, you don't know who might be gandering around in your woods. My place is posted, and so are the neighbor's. We have agreements with each other about retrieving wounded deer, but otherwise each hunts his own. I've had to remove several people from my barn laneway that think it's a great place to park their side by sides or four wheelers and drink beer, or better still, walk into my woodlot and sneak a deer or turkey. Luckily, I've not had that happen in a few years now.  

Mac

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