Distillate tractors

[lotsaIHCs]

I've neve tried  it myself, but I have been told that many of the old distillate or all fuel tractors would run on almost anything once they were warmed up. Diesel, distillate, kerosene, coal oil...whatever was available. You would never get them to start on those fuels, but if the engine is warm they will run on them. Again, not personal experience, just stories I've heard from old times who were around in the depression/ war years.

[snoshoe]

45 minutes ago, acem said:

So there was four fuel configurations offered. 

Gas

Tractor fuel

Diesel

Kerosene

I'm just trying to get my head around all this. Back when I was a kid there were quite a few of these tractors still working round here but I was young. I did drive some but I didn't work on them.

I was just using Farmall M as an example but should mean all of the era.

 

You got it.

[oleman]

Nice looking 400 from 55, all the bells and whistles from 1955. I'll bet she isn't multifuel.  Sells on 16 Aug 23. Someones  pet machine!

[Big Bud guy]

1 hour ago, acem said:

So there was four fuel configurations offered. 

Gas

Tractor fuel

Diesel

Kerosene

 

 

Kerosene and distillate/tractor fuel were treated the same far as JD was concerned. JD never offered a kerosene and an all fuel tractor in different configurations.  

 I have an Oliver 90/99 brochure.  It specifically states the 90 with its low compression engine can burn distillate, kerosene, and gasoline while the 99 with its high compression engine can only burn gas.  

[TomH]

A neighbor of mine back 30+ years ago had a Distillate H and an F20, while he normally ran them on gas, he demonstrated the fuel system by running them on mineral spirits. Paint thinner from the local paint store, the tractors seemed to run well on it.

[KWRB]

On 8/13/2023 at 2:26 PM, hillman said:

the water is for detonation

 

 the best place for a distillate head is in the dumpster. a Letter Series with that head even running on gasoline is underpowered. if someone is doing a valve job they will notice the difference in the tractors performance if they spend a few more dollars and get a  gas  head

I have one for a 123 that I can't give away. Nothing but a friggin trip hazard but I can't bring myself to scrap it. After all, it's old so it MUST be special!

My great grandpa's Deere BO was an all-fuel machine. It has been fully restored, and the engine just can't get warm enough to run on kerosene or anything similar. They just don't get worked hard enough, even at a plow day. So we fill the main tank with gas, and the starter tank (originally for gasoline) stays empty.

[KWRB]

On 8/14/2023 at 7:12 AM, New Englander said:

In Charles Lindbergh's book he tells of draining the oil from the Liberty engines in the mail planes he was flying and warming it over a fire to be able to start the engines in the cold. The Liberty was a V12 1649 CI 400hp engine that was propped to start.

Then there's this from the cold weather operations section of the 1159 page Airplane Flight Manual of the plane I fly:

ELECTRICAL 

 

For ambient temperature below minus 15 °C, remove batteries and store them in warm premisses. 

 

It gets a good laugh. Yeah, right, unbolt and remove two 80lb batteries that have to go straight up through a hatch. The APU has never failed to start no matter how cold and then you have all the heat and electricity you need.

 

My Grandpa tells a story of going to look at a possible warranty situation in Maine in the sixties, at a potato farm, when he worked for A-C. The brand new machine had soot all over its belly because the farmer had always pre warmed his machines' crankcases with fire and took right to doing the same thing with his new machine.

[New Englander]

4 hours ago, KWRB said:

My Grandpa tells a story of going to look at a possible warranty situation in Maine in the fifties, at a potato farm, when he worked for A-C. The brand new machine had soot all over its belly because the farmer had always pre warmed his machines' crankcases with fire and took right to doing the same thing with his new machine.

The big radial engines use W120 - 60 weight oil. One morning we were preparing a plane for a ferry flight so the 40 gallon oil tanks were to be topped off. It was below zero out and the hangar was barely above freezing. Of course the drum of oil was in an unheated area. We took turns pumping it eventually fatiguing the top of the barrel out. By that time we'd pumped enough out to be able to tip it to pour into buckets, slowly pour even through that big hole. Some were suggesting we'd be better cutting the top off the drum and scooping it out. Any way, we emptied the drum, plane started, only to return. That's a long story.

The oil tanks were what's called hopper tanks - a tank within the tank and the oil circulated mostly through that part being replenished by the tank around it. Otherwise the oil would never come to temperature. They also had an oil dilution system. When shutting down knowing the next start would be in very cold temps gasoline diluted the oil to make it flow when cold. A chart told you how long to hold the switch depending on the temperature. The gasoline would evaporate as the engine warmed and the normal high oil consumption of those engines ensured that proper heavy weight oil would be in use shortly.

Oil coolers had shutters to adjust the temp, one of the many jobs the crew had that we now don't. The routine things are automated so we can concentrate on flying.

[Diesel Doctor]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:23 AM, lotsaIHCs said:

I've neve tried  it myself, but I have been told that many of the old distillate or all fuel tractors would run on almost anything once they were warmed up. Diesel, distillate, kerosene, coal oil...whatever was available. You would never get them to start on those fuels, but if the engine is warm they will run on them. Again, not personal experience, just stories I've heard from old times who were around in the depression/ war years.

A diesel will run on coal dust if you can figure out how to get it in the cylinder at the right time?

[lotsaIHCs]

On 8/16/2023 at 4:32 PM, Diesel Doctor said:

A diesel will run on coal dust if you can figure out how to get it in the cylinder at the right time?

Well, if ya take your sand blaster and load it with coal dust, stick the nozzle in the injector hole and pull the trigger at the right time when the piston is on the intake stroke...who knows?!?!?! Might need a check valve to keep the compression in though!😁

By the way, just in case you misread my post, I didn't say they'd run on coal, I said they would run on coal oil. Not sure where the diesel part came in either. I was talking about spark ignition distillate or kerosene engine.

[acem]

A couple related items.

Apparently they used a similar product in Europe called tractor vaporizing oil (TVO).

http://vintagetractorengineer.com/2009/01/mixing-tractor-vaporising-oil/

The US military uses some multi fuel engines. Many duce and a half trucks were designed to run on diesel but could run on other fuels. Supposedly there were even experiments with slurried coal. The M1 Abrams tank uses a multi fuel engine.

[Farmall Doctor]

     In the IHC Promo film "Helpful Henry" from the 1940s, they show a Farmall H sitting at idle smoking heavily.. It dawned on me that it must be running on distillate. 

      I had thoughts that if I had a fully operational all fuel tractor that I might try and make some heavier fuel. The heavy "Bunker C" fuel that the lake freighters burn smells wonderful as exhaust! I was wondering if some mixed with gasoline might produce the same effect.. hehe

     

[Gearclash]

Back when I was really young and would try anything in the name of “learning” we had an old B&S 3hp engine that I tried feeding increasing amounts of diesel fuel to.  50% diesel was about as far as I could go and get it to run.  Smoked like crazy.  It was never under load though; that might have helped considerably.

[New Englander]

Got my wife real mad at me for putting diesel in a red gas can. She got the mower to start but when the diesel got into it it smoked and wouldn't shut off.

As for getting an all-fuel to run on kerosene I had the shutters closed tight. It was a thermo siphon system with no water pump it eventually got warm enough. I suspect on a cool day it would have to be working to get it warm enough.

[hillman]

this would prolly work on anything 🤓

 

[acem]

I've considered burning my used motor oil in carbureted gas engines. Something like 10% used oil or less oil in gas.

[Gearclash]

Just now, acem said:

I've considered burning my used motor oil in carbureted gas engines. Something like 10% used oil or less oil in gas.

Don’t, unless you have some kind of fetish for cleaning spark plugs.

[int 504]

They used to put in diesel tanks-might be hard on filters.

[dale560]

This sounds stupid but we used to do this more than once. Dad had a 74 GMC pickup that I have now. 350, 4wd 4 speed 3/4 ton 4 mpg type at hiway speed loaded cattle trailer. 40 gals of gas wouldn’t get you back home hauling pigs to sales barn 80 miles away. You ended up about 5 miles short if you drove fast. Pickup always had 125 gal service tank for fuel and sometimes a 100 gal tank behind that for gas tractors or extra diesel fuel. A few times we stopped with a  little bit of gas left and put 2 gals of diesel in because no gas with. Motor was warm so it would start and run but smoke and ping if in the throttle much but you would get home. We used to dump a few gals of fuel in the super M if we ran out of gas at farm until you could send somebody to get more. The M ran okay but smoked and had about 1/2 power.

[acem]

I've run a gas pickup on diesel too make it home.  Don't shut it off until you get gas in the tank and all the way to the carburetor...

[o121937]

All early IHC tractors were designed to burn kerosene. Gasoline (which was almost a waste product before the advent of the automobile) was used for starting until the engine was hot enough to burn the kerosene. All advertising stressed the efficient use of kerosene.  Kerosene was readily available as it was used for lighting (kerosene lamps in houses) and heating.  For IHC tractors this was the norm until the advent of the Letter Series tractors in 1939.  The Titan 10-20 and the later McCormick Deering 15-30 had the provision of adding water to the fuel to reduce the risk of pre-ignition, in the Titan the water was from the cooling system whereas in the 15-30 there was a separate water section in the fued tank.  The 10-20 and Farmall (Regular) did not have this possible water feed as maybe the smaller engines did not show a great risk of the pre-ignition problem.  When the Farmall F-12 appeared the early versions with the Waukesha engine was gasoline only but when the IHC engine appeared the kerosene was an option but the default appeared to be the gasoline version.  All the manuals for the 10-20, 15-30, later the W-40 and the W-30 had the option of running on kerosene or gasoline.  The standard road gasoline of the time was about 60 octane.  In the 12 series engines the kerosene engines used different pistons (the piston pin was higher up in the piston so the stroke was unchanged but as the piston did not go as high the compression ratio was lower.  The carburettor jet was different and the manifold was different to allow changes in the heating effect of the exhaust gasses in the intake fuel/air mix to suit atmospheric and engine temperatures.  In the 1o-20 there was a section of the manifold that  could be un-bolted and arranged in a different manner to allow, or not-allow, the exhaust gasses to heat the intake air.  There appears to be no other differences to the engines for either kerosene or gasoline.  The probelem with kerosene was that, particularly if the engine was not HOT some of the kerosene condensed on the cylinder walls and ended up in theoil sump.  The top had to be drained off each morning and the oil level topped up to the req

In the late 1930s the refining process seems to have changed a produce a new low cost fuel, distillate.  When the Letter Series tractors appeared in 1939, the standard fuel was distillate. The engines for distillate and kerosene were identical for the Farmalls H and M except that distillate had a cylinder head that gave a compression ratio of 4.7 to 1 where the kerosene had gave 4.4 to 1.  There was an option for a high-compression head and manifold with a compression ratio of the order of 5.9 to 1 for 70 octane gasoline.  The kerosene/distillate tractors still had the hot manifold, the starting gasoline tank and the radiator shutters.

[o121937]

Somehow my post was made before I had finished, I hope that I get it right this time.

All early IHC tractors were designed to burn kerosene. Gasoline (which was almost a waste product before the advent of the automobile) was used for starting until the engine was hot enough to burn the kerosene. All advertising stressed the efficient use of kerosene.  Kerosene was readily available as it was used for lighting (kerosene lamps in houses) and heating.  For IHC tractors this was the norm until the advent of the Letter Series tractors in 1939.  The Titan 10-20 and the later McCormick Deering 15-30 had the provision of adding water to the fuel to reduce the risk of pre-ignition, in the Titan the water was from the cooling system whereas in the 15-30 there was a separate water section in the fued tank.  The 10-20 and Farmall (Regular) did not have this possible water feed as maybe the smaller engines did not show a great risk of the pre-ignition problem.  When the Farmall F-12 appeared the early versions with the Waukesha engine was gasoline only but when the IHC engine appeared the kerosene was an option but the default appeared to be the gasoline version.  All the manuals for the 10-20, 15-30, later the W-40 and the W-30 had the option of running on kerosene or gasoline.  The standard road gasoline of the time was about 60 octane.  In the 12 series engines the kerosene engines used different pistons (the piston pin was higher up in the piston so the stroke was unchanged but as the piston did not go as high the compression ratio was lower.  The carburetor jet was different and the manifold was different to allow changes in the heating effect of the exhaust gasses in the intake fuel/air mix to suit atmospheric and engine temperatures.  In the 1o-20 there was a section of the manifold that  could be un-bolted and arranged in a different manner to allow, or not-allow, the exhaust gasses to heat the intake air.  There appears to be no other differences to the engines for either kerosene or gasoline.  Early tractors used a curtain in front of the  radiator to help keep the engine warm and radiator shutters appeared in 1937 to give an easier means of adjusting the effectiveness of the radiator. The problem with kerosene was that, particularly if the engine was not HOT some of the kerosene condensed on the cylinder walls and ended up in the oil sump.  The top had to be drained off each morning and the oil level topped up to the require level.  Massey Harris mad a great play of the efficiency of using gasoline and waste of oil in kerosene engines when the Massey-Harris 101 Senior appeared in 1938

In the late 1930s the refining process seems to have changed a produce a new low cost fuel, distillate.  When the Letter Series tractors appeared in 1939, the standard fuel was distillate. The engines for distillate and kerosene were identical for the Farmalls H and M except that distillate had a cylinder head that gave a compression ratio of 4.7 to 1 where the kerosene had gave 4.4 to 1.  There was an option for a high-compression head and manifold with a compression ratio of the order of 5.9 to 1 for 70 octane gasoline.  The kerosene/distillate tractors still had the hot manifold, the starting gasoline tank and the radiator shutters.

In the Farmalls A and B, the compression ratio differences were achieved by again have three different pistons for gasoline (default) kerosene or distillate as they had done for the 12 series engines..  Again the kerosene/distillate tractors had starting tanks, hot manifolds. temperature gauges and radiator shutters.

A diesel engine is very different form a gasoline/kersone/distillate engine.  It is a compression ignition engine requiring a minimum of about a 14 to 1 compression ratio (which is what IHC used on their early diesel engines) where more modern diesels have well over 21 to 1 compression ratios.  There were some tractors made that burnt diesel fuel in a spark ignition engine such as the Allis-Chalmers KO and LO crawler tractors and Case has a similar wheel tractor in the early 1940s though I believe that production numbers were low.

In the 1940s there were four options for Farmall (and W series) tractors, distillate, kerosene, high octand gasoline (70 octane) or diesel.  The last engine was different from the first three, heavier with as 5 bearing crankshaft rather that the 3 bearing crankshaft of the carburetor engines.

Distillate was never available in New Zealand so most tractors old here were kerosene burners. At that time kerosene was about 1/3 of the cost of gasoline (petrol) as gasoline had the road tax included in the price.  In the late 1940s of early 1950s farmers could get gasoline exempt from the road tax and farmers quickly changed to gasoline, getting more efficient engines and avoiding the daily topping up if the oil in the sump as well as having less wear on the engines with the cleaner burning fuel and the fact that w=as the kerosene went down past the rings it washed some of the lubricating oil of the cylinder walls leading to greater wear.  Today, kerosene, if you can get it, is about 4 times the price of gasoline.

[Binderoid]

On 8/16/2023 at 3:46 AM, KWRB said:

always pre warmed his machines' crankcases with fire and took right to doing the same thing with his new machine.

Above is not satire! My dad and uncle had a Buckeye 120 trencher with a Waukesha 6BZ that hung way out ahead of the tracks … could build a virtual bonfire under the thing… a necessity because it had to be hand cranked and the starter was 27$ and my dad was too stubborn to buy one for a machine that was used once a year…. Unfortunately, those opportunities only came when it was +10F . Sadly; the old girl got scrapped in ‘76 , along with several other museum pieces before I was old enough to have any leverage in the company. My dad was not an equipment lover and anything unused went down the road. 
   I did stumble on our old TD-24 he sold 35 years ago, and the fact that I’m contemplating making the guy an offer proves that I will always be poor.

[New Englander]

https://blog.edgeautosport.com/detonation-vs-pre-ignition

[Dzldenny]

Spent a few hours at the thresheree up in Valmy yesterday. Saw a pair of 15-30 running one of the displays. Exact same fuel set up as mine. 3 tanks, two sediment bowls, one line. I guess they were all switched over to run gas in all three tanks when it became the fuel of choice. At least that's what the consensus seems to be. Did find out how they are supposed to be though...

 

 

 

This makes more sense to me now than just adding water to the fuel line. Guess none of these old tractors are as original as they seem. It appears my fuel tank has been turned around at some point. Now that I know, it's going to bother me. Guess I just added a small project to my to-do list for the week.