Collectible POS machinery

[Big Bud guy]

42 minutes ago, Binderoid said:

If you are talking about the 123/125 combines, the retractable finger auger hadn’t  been invented yet. The 127 and maybe late 125s were the first to have this. The exact date is unclear because IH offered retro kits for older combines. My 125 is a ‘49 has split auger so it must have been after that.  Retractable fingers was invented by someone else and IH must have paid for the rights.

JD was using a retractable finger drum for a pickup attachment on their combines back in the mid 30s and it was called the Innes attachment.  I assume that’s were they got the idea from.  Actually look identical to the auger used in the 55 right down to the square teeth.  And the 55 hit the market in 47’ although a few were made in 46’.  I know IH used the split auger up through the No 125 SPV which was made in 50’ and 51’.   They had a No 125 SPVC for a few years after that but I don’t know what they used.  127s for sure had the retractable finger auger from the factory. However every 125 I’ve seen has had the finger retro fitted.  

[Binderoid]

45 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

JD was using a retractable finger drum for a pickup attachment on their combines back in the mid 30s and it was called the Innes attachment.  I assume that’s were they got the idea from.  Actually look identical to the auger used in the 55 right down to the square teeth.  And the 55 hit the market in 47’ although a few were made in 46’.  I know IH used the split auger up through the No 125 SPV which was made in 50’ and 51’.   They had a No 125 SPVC for a few years after that but I don’t know what they used.  127s for sure had the retractable finger auger from the factory. However every 125 I’ve seen has had the finger retro fitted.  

I wish I could remember where I saw that article, I thought retractable fingers was a relatively new thing... I’m a little stunned that IH couldn’t get their hands on it for 15 years... 

[Big Bud guy]

1 hour ago, Binderoid said:

I wish I could remember where I saw that article, I thought retractable fingers was a relatively new thing... I’m a little stunned that IH couldn’t get their hands on it for 15 years... 

I’ll post some more pics when I get home tonight on the Innes.  To be honest what mystifies me more is why it took IH long to put a variable speed attachment on their combines.  Far as I know the 127 was the first to offer it. 

[iowaboy1965]

14 hours ago, Cdfarabaugh said:

Also you NEVER shut it off until you were sure you were done for the day.......it never restarted while hot. 

I have a book on magneto's that makes the claim when this was a problem it was most often a defective coil or condenser in the magneto. It wasn't exclusive to Wisconsin engines either. We had both an AC model C and later an IH model C that were not real happy starting warm. They would, but was a chore.

[int 504]

A friend had a Norton like that.

[Gearclash]

1 hour ago, iowaboy1965 said:

I have a book on magneto's that makes the claim when this was a problem it was most often a defective coil or condenser in the magneto. It wasn't exclusive to Wisconsin engines either. We had both an AC model C and later an IH model C that were not real happy starting warm. They would, but was a chore.

Hmm.  I’ve read that as it pertains to Wisconsins anyway, the problem was vapor lock in the carb or fuel line.   And it was the V engines that suffered from it.  I kinda believe that as when I was young we had a big single cylinder Wisconsin on a JD elevator and it was not unreasonably hard to restart.  When I hear about the hard to start Wisconsins I have the urge to jerk the air filter off and shoot gas down the intake to see if they would fire on that.

[FarmerFixEmUp]

19 hours ago, Cdfarabaugh said:

My dad and uncle still talk about having a Wisconsin powered Super 77 back in the 60's.  Pulledit with an H and always said how heavy and clumsy of a monstrosity it was.  Also you NEVER shut it off until you were sure you were done for the day.......it never restarted while hot. 

Bought an almost new 273 baler and were amazed how something half the size and weight had the same capacity.    

Dad had a Case combine with the V4 Wisconsin. Same issue, no hot start. Heard some colorful words when dad was on the crank of that POS. At one time we tried running a belt to the M belt pulley.  Still wouldn't start. Pto driven one came later and then a 76 IH. 

[snoshoe]

17 minutes ago, Gearclash said:

Hmm.  I’ve read that as it pertains to Wisconsins anyway, the problem was vapor lock in the carb or fuel line.   And it was the V engines that suffered from it.  I kinda believe that as when I was young we had a big single cylinder Wisconsin on a JD elevator and it was not unreasonably hard to restart.  When I hear about the hard to start Wisconsins I have the urge to jerk the air filter off and shoot gas down the intake to see if they would fire on that.

You're close it was the v engines with the carb buried in the v under the manifolds. Shutting off hot would boil gas out of carb flooding engine. With electric start you could spin it enough to clear. Lots of black smoke and stumbling when it did fire. Have a skidloader with one. Put an insulator between carb and manifold. Made all the difference in the world. The boiling gas used to leave residue behind that would come lose and plug main jet whenever you bounced a little. Haven't had to probe that since the insulator went in.

Later wisconsins used a side draft carb mounted of to the side.

[mike newman]

On 7/22/2023 at 1:19 AM, MacAR said:

Happily, Mike!

I will start by saying that I've never ran a diesel 504, and that I happen to own a #37 IH baler.

Now then, the 504 gas the I ran for the neighbor was the most gutless piece of junk I've ever sat on; worse than the old Deutz that Dad had even. If all a guy wanted to do was piddle around with it raking hay or fixing his driveway then it might be fine. But for what I classify as real farm work the 504 just won't cut it; given the choice I'd take a 2000 Ford over it, and given my disdain for Ford tractors that's really saying something. 

As for IH square balers, I've heard a lot more griping and complaining on this forum about them than I've ever heard good. Our other neighbor had a 430 that the paint was worn off the twine box where his boys rode to tie the knots it missed. Dad always swore that he'd never own an IH baler, but after that GD JD 24W finally threw craps I drug home an old 46 from the scrap yard, tinkered with it for a couple hours, and finished up baling hay. We baled with that baler until he quit about 15 years ago, with minimal issues I might add. 

Like I said earlier, there's good and bad in all, but there were some things that IH built that I thought were really, really bad and these are my reasons why. 

Mac

PS - between the ulcers and the gout, I've pretty well given up the Uisce beatha and gone to Miller light, and that only in small doses. Of course, given my heritage I don't need the whisky to make a fool of meself!

I am still processing this information, Mac.......My Irish   own heritage precludes me from requesting  a duel at dawn   etc..(air fares  are bloody high etc...)..but in'' duel''  course  , I will respond to this  continuing slander of the ubiquitous, venerable 504....

Mike

[Binderoid]

1 hour ago, snoshoe said:

You're close it was the v engines with the carb buried in the v under the manifolds. Shutting off hot would boil gas out of carb flooding engine. With electric start you could spin it enough to clear. Lots of black smoke and stumbling when it did fire. Have a skidloader with one. Put an insulator between carb and manifold. Made all the difference in the world. The boiling gas used to leave residue behind that would come lose and plug main jet whenever you bounced a little. Haven't had to probe that since the insulator went in.

Later wisconsins used a side draft carb mounted of to the side.

Got a Ford CL-20 with a 25 hp Onan that would vapor lock occasionally... fuel pump right over the cam out of the air flow. Just pour a quart of water on the fuel pump and would start right back up. They must have known there was a problem as the new short block came with nowhere to mount a mechanical pump; instead there was an instruction sheet on how to mount an electric pump.

[MacAR]

45 minutes ago, mike newman said:

I will respond to this  continuing slander of the ubiquitous, venerable 504....

Fair enough, Mike. The 504 Diesel is probably a pretty good old horse, but I don't have any personal experience with it and so will bow to yours. And I will concede that the neighbor's old gasser was whupped and I don't mean maybe. Baling wire and prayers were all that held it together. It chucked a rod through the block baling hay one September afternoon, I'll never forget it. He called Dad and asked if he could borrow me and Super M to finish up. When I got there, he was quite literally foaming at the mouth. We drug the poor old gal over to the edge of the field, hooked up the SM, and finished his hay up. As far as I know, it's still sitting where he parked it though he's long gone to his reward. 

45 minutes ago, mike newman said:

My Irish   own heritage precludes me from requesting  a duel at dawn   etc..(air fares  are bloody high etc...)

Air fare rates are bloody expensive, to be sure. Were they cheaper, you and I would have been standing in the middle of a trout stream having this discussion! However, if it's inevitable, I'd like to choose the weapons; Roman candles at 20 paces and the loser buys the beer!

Mac

[cedar farm]

4 hours ago, snoshoe said:

You're close it was the v engines with the carb buried in the v under the manifolds. Shutting off hot would boil gas out of carb flooding engine. With electric start you could spin it enough to clear. Lots of black smoke and stumbling when it did fire. Have a skidloader with one. Put an insulator between carb and manifold. Made all the difference in the world. The boiling gas used to leave residue behind that would come lose and plug main jet whenever you bounced a little. Haven't had to probe that since the insulator went in.

Later wisconsins used a side draft carb mounted of to the side.

We had a MM 69 combine sitting in the grove when I was a kid.. Dad said the same thing about the WI engine. The carb was set to low in the V and if shut of or choked hot it was dinner time. I guess grandpa was so mad one time he pulled off the main flat belt and belted a thresher belt up to the JD A and said that "SOB is going to start" Dad said it didn't

[hillman]

9 hours ago, Big Bud guy said:

JD was using a retractable finger drum for a pickup attachment on their combines back in the mid 30s and it was called the Innes attachment.  I assume that’s were they got the idea from.  Actually look identical to the auger used in the 55 right down to the square teeth.  And the 55 hit the market in 47’ although a few were made in 46’.  I know IH used the split auger up through the No 125 SPV which was made in 50’ and 51’.   They had a No 125 SPVC for a few years after that but I don’t know what they used.  127s for sure had the retractable finger auger from the factory. However every 125 I’ve seen has had the finger retro fitted.  

Innes was an independent manufacturer. up to maybe 30 years ago most farmers a little north of here swathed their grain and used mostly an Innes pickup attachment on their headers

 IH IMHO used bat reels longer than some competitors went to the Hume reel

[766 Man]

1 hour ago, hillman said:

Innes was an independent manufacturer. up to maybe 30 years ago most farmers a little north of here swathed their grain and used mostly an Innes pickup attachment on their headers

 IH IMHO used bat reels longer than some competitors went to the Hume reel

  Innes bean windrowers still show up auction around here from time to time.

[hillman]

here is the Allis wagon. the running gear and the paint on the sheet metal were like new when I got it. Its never been in running condition since I owned it, The paint on the wood was also very nice at that time. I think its been outside about 8 years. it has not done a lot of work so I believe it rates as a collectable POS 

 

[Big Bud guy]

12 hours ago, Binderoid said:

I wish I could remember where I saw that article, I thought retractable fingers was a relatively new thing... I’m a little stunned that IH couldn’t get their hands on it for 15 years... 

 

 

 

The 1st pic is from a 1935 JD better Farming Magazine.  2nd pic is from a first year 55 manual.  

[Big Bud guy]

 

Interesting story related to the retracting finger auger.

[Big Bud guy]

 

And finally a Hesston brochure I grabbed off of eBay.  Hesston got started making combine attachments before moving into hay equipment.  They offered a retracting finger auger.  

[midnightman]

On 7/22/2023 at 7:32 AM, acem said:

I've only seen pics.

How were they?

They sold several irrigation engines in eastern Arkansas. Looked like a copy of deutz.

They were similar in design to a Massey 750 if I remember correctly. I think they were comparable in capacity also. Apparently they threshed grain, but nobody used them for more than a few years. I do remember them being extremely crude in build quality. I remember some of the sheet metal looked to be hand cut all jagged with a torch and the slag not even ground off before painting the machine 

[midnightman]

On 7/22/2023 at 7:32 AM, acem said:

I've only seen pics.

How were they?

They sold several irrigation engines in eastern Arkansas. Looked like a copy of deutz.

They were similar in design to a Massey 750 if I remember correctly. I think they were comparable in capacity also. Apparently they threshed grain, but nobody used them for more than a few years. I do remember them being extremely crude in build quality. I remember some of the sheet metal looked to be hand cut all jagged with a torch and the slag not even ground off before painting the machine 

[midnightman]

On 7/22/2023 at 7:32 AM, acem said:

I've only seen pics.

How were they?

They sold several irrigation engines in eastern Arkansas. Looked like a copy of deutz.

They were similar in design to a Massey 750 if I remember correctly. I think they were comparable in capacity also. Apparently they threshed grain, but nobody used them for more than a few years. I do remember them being extremely crude in build quality. I remember some of the sheet metal looked to be hand cut all jagged with a torch and the slag not even ground off before painting the machine 

[SDman]

On 7/22/2023 at 12:14 PM, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

I’m pretty sure that @SDman said that he had been around one. Maybe even modified a MacDon header to fit it?

Yes, we had one at our dealership for demo. Think it was in 1993, the year I started here. It also was the year we started selling MacDons. 

The Don was pretty much what I would call a copy of a 750/760 Massey in many respects. IIRC, it had the feeder paddle system instead of a feeder chain, like some of the MFs at that time had. Seems like it had a rethrasher similar to the MF, too. Had the noisy engine bellering loud right beside the cab like a MF. For some reason or another, the straw walkers reminded me of metal 2x4s. 

Yes, we had a MacDon header that would fit the Don 1500. The bad thing about that was that the unloading auger was way too short. When the grain tank got full, the guy running the combine would have to back up the combine while turning towards the grain cart to reach it for unloading. Also, the unloader was top driven....like most grain augers here in the US. There was a small shaft on the top of the unloading auger tube that drove the auger out on the spout end. Rather unorthodox to us in the US.

I remember a couple Russians came with the combine....they had a pickup box full of belts. They would replace belts on the combine for no apparent reason for something to do to pass the time.

In all honesty, I don't recall many problems with other than the usual language barrier stuff....trying to figure out what all the controls were for and which way to turn knobs to adjust something in/out like concave adjustment, or up/down like cylinder speed, etc. We only had it there for a month or so, then it went to Montana to another dealership IIRC.

I also remember a farm magazine (like Farm Journal or Successful Farming?) around that time had an article about a custom cutter that ran a Don 1500 alongside a pair of CaseIH 1680s on the run for a season. Seemed to get along with the Don okay, but I doubt he actually bought one in the end.

As far the the 4wd Belaruses, we called them "missile haulers", as they looked more like something for transporting missiles from location to location, rather than being a farm tractor. One of the 4wds had a V12 non-turbo engine, another one had a V8 turbocharged engine, another one had a V6 diesel that used a 2-stroke pony motor to start the main engine. They all had a cab complete with a bench seat....so you could take the family with you when you went to farm.

Fortunately for us, we kept the MacDon contract.....and got rid of the Don.

[mike newman]

13 hours ago, MacAR said:

Fair enough, Mike. The 504 Diesel is probably a pretty good old horse, but I don't have any personal experience with it and so will bow to yours. And I will concede that the neighbor's old gasser was whupped and I don't mean maybe. Baling wire and prayers were all that held it together. It chucked a rod through the block baling hay one September afternoon, I'll never forget it. He called Dad and asked if he could borrow me and Super M to finish up. When I got there, he was quite literally foaming at the mouth. We drug the poor old gal over to the edge of the field, hooked up the SM, and finished his hay up. As far as I know, it's still sitting where he parked it though he's long gone to his reward. 

Air fare rates are bloody expensive, to be sure. Were they cheaper, you and I would have been standing in the middle of a trout stream having this discussion! However, if it's inevitable, I'd like to choose the weapons; Roman candles at 20 paces and the loser buys the beer!

Mac

Mac   ...my   Grandparents   (Maternal )  came from Tullamore....in the  1880's  .....so as previously stated  , I don't aim to pick a fight with you...not even with candles   at 20 paces.....and I must also say that with my lightening     80 yr old reflex's..I would be bound to win the  event...and further to your dismay , being a man of culture and refinement, I do not find comfort and solace in the bottle....although, I guess by now,  Arkansas   may  possibly be aware  of "Yorkshire Breakfast Tea""??

...So no matter how much you ''sugar coat'' this  devilish  blasphemy   in respect of the 504.....I am not about to let you off the hook....(.this in respect of trying to get off the main subject   and by mentioning  a very pleasurable   pastime...)

Good evening

Mike

[ny bill o]

8 hours ago, hillman said:

here is the Allis wagon. the running gear and the paint on the sheet metal were like new when I got it. Its never been in running condition since I owned it, The paint on the wood was also very nice at that time. I think its been outside about 8 years. it has not done a lot of work so I believe it rates as a collectable POS 

 

to paraphrase Mike Newman, now you stopped preaching and started meddling.

The Allis boxes were the best built of any out there- they never got floppy with their riveted sides. I have used New Holland #s 6, 7, and 8, JD chuck wagons, and Kastens. I have owned/rebuilt some/ wore out probably 10-12 Allis unloading wagons over the years. Started when Dad bought the first one in about 1962, which I bought in in 1980. I was using 5 Allis wagons for corn chopping by 1992, the last year before I bought a dump wagon (actually using about 3 while Dad was fixing whatever worn-out chains that had broke the day before). Granted, you needed a good parking brake at the blower, because the rachet floor drive really got to rocking things if you had a full load and wanted to unload fast. But they never left you wondering if the empty wagon was going to fall in a heap on the way back to the field for another load.

The wear-out part of our program was my using Allis wagons to feed TMR to the milking herd. The salt and minerals were rough on the metal. But the boxes themselves were still solid.

Notice that I haven't jumped into the 504 fray. My gas 504 is really a gutless wonder, I just own it to help fill out the 04/06 family.

[M35A2]

The Ford N series were one of those tractors that was a great thing when it came out.  Often times it was a nice alternative to a horse, or doing work by hand.   But as technology improved , we were able to shove more horsepower into smaller packages with more features.   For quite a span of time, I remember every person who moved from town to the country buying an N series with a Woods finishing mower.  Considering that most garden tractors didn't have decks that big and compact tractors hadn't penetrated the market yet, they worked ok.   My uncle was one of those people.   The mower tended to push the tractor around and a bush hog, forget it.  No live pto meant the pto machine worked the tractor instead of tractor working the machine.   Plus options for mowing large areas was either a 3 point mower, or hours on a garden tractor.   Zero turn mowers were limited to Dixon, Grasshopper, and Dixie Chopper, and a Yazoo if you could afford one.   Today the Ford N series are a p.o.s collectible due to technology surpassing it and making it somewhat worthless for work by today's standards.