5288 Sprayer Hydraulics

[Ksbee]

Looking for some help getting the hydraulics plumbed correctly to the tractor.  The sprayer needs 2 sources of constant flow, 1 for the pump and one for the booms (booms operate off of an electronic joystick).   I'll be using them a fair amount going over terraces.  

There was a similar discussion on here a couple of years ago.  Some said to plumb the pump into the remote that uses the inside lever and others said to plumb it to the outside priority valve lever.

It would make sense to me to use the outside lever for the motor and turn flow down to what the motor needs.  The return would go back into the single direct return line on the tractor.

The booms would operate off of one of the other remotes, I don't think it makes much difference since those are the only 2 hydraulic functions. 

Which outlet should be used for the boom return line without dead-heading it? 

[snoshoe]

I would think tee it to motor return line. Only need three hoses to sprayer. Will not have standby feedback. 

[HydroTek]

Put the motor lines on the motor valve and control the flow with the tractor -- be sure any flow control on the pump is maxed -- if you have the motor return on your tractor use that -- the motor valve is supposed to operate from Lower to Float, so as not to shock the motor when you want to stop -- you place in Float 

Are the boom controls open center or closed ?

if open center, just pick a remote lever and control the speed of the boom operation with the tractor flow control

if closed center, the oil will be dead headed when not operating the boom, so you will need to place the tractor in neutral whenever possible  -- you can run the tractor against pressure for a while, but it will create heat -- the PFC system needs oil to flow on demand -- you can drop the flow low to lessen heating problems , but that will slow the boom movement

[brahamfireman]

If you put the pump on the lever closest to the door, you most likely will have zero flow for the booms.

I know many say you will but my experience is the motor circuit takes all the flow regardless of the flow control position.

I personally would run the pump on middle lever, lock lever forward somehow.  Then run booms on lever closest to seat.

 

Your going to have to tee the returns together into the single motor return port on lower right rear of tractor. 

[TB5288]

Agree with brahamfireman. I run a sprayer on my 5288. I run the pump on lever closest to the seat and boom valve on middle lever. When I first put this sprayer on the tractor I used the motor valve to run the pump. The hydraulic oil would get very hot when using the motor valve, I'm not sure why. Yes, I controlled the speed of the pump with the flow control on that valve and no there is no squeeze valve or restriction going to the pump(don't know how many times I was asked those questions). Anyway, I switched from the motor valve to in inside lever and the oil runs much cooler. It works fine, it's just that when you move the booms the pump does slow down a little. Not a big deal to me. 

[Ksbee]

Just spoke with Demco.  They said there is a dump valve on the outside valve stack that you can screw in for closed center hydraulics.  

Will this allow me to then run the return line directly back into the remote or would I still have to tee it into the case return?

[HydroTek]

PFC is not really closed center -- it is a hybrid

Treat it like open center for your sprayer  -- just do the flow regulation at the tractor

[Ksbee]

2 hours ago, HydroTek said:

PFC is not really closed center -- it is a hybrid

Treat it like open center for your sprayer  -- just do the flow regulation at the tractor

Treat it like open center---  Meaning just plug it in to the #2 remote and use the detent to hold it on?

 

[66 Series Farmer]

I have ran two Demco pull types on my 5488. The first was a 60' which had a hydraulic fold box that could be switched from open center to closed center. Attached picture is the pin that goes in for closed center and out for open center. My current Demco is a 90 and the fold box is only for closed center. Last two years I have ran the pump on lever closest to door and down to pump and float to off. Return line turn into the return line below on the tractor. I have been running the boom on the inside lever locked backwards using the slide rod. I have been returning the boom back into the remote directly. I have too many terraces and need for the boom to be shutting it on and off so this year I ran it on all the time. It seemed to get along fine. I'm not sure it is necessary to return/T your boom into the other return line. If the pump is deadheaded then there shouldn't be any flow coming back to the tractor unless your are activating a boom function. 

[ZG6E]

I run the pump on the inside lever and booms on the outside (priority) lever. I run both returns to the motor return now but in the past I had run the boom return back to the remote. It's a low amount of flow and I never had any heating issue.

 

When I am running a high GPA the flow to the pump will drop a little when I raise the booms but I would rather that than not be able to raise them which is what would happen if it were reversed.

[HydroTek]

The motor low pressure return main functions, are to supply a low back pressure return for hydraulic motors, and to keep from applying a shock load on the return when the motor oil is suddenly turned off. Motors such as used on air planters can blow the shaft seal or snap a shaft , if connected into the regular couplers

There is no benefit from returning equipment auxiliary oil into the motor low pressure return. 

[snoshoe]

17 hours ago, HydroTek said:

PFC is not really closed center -- it is a hybrid

Totally fiction.

 

16 minutes ago, HydroTek said:

There is no benefit from returning equipment auxiliary oil into the motor low pressure return

Probably not in this app but if you ever had a corn planter that the marker would raise as you crossed the field or a big round baler that the twine arm would feed the twine into the bale when you're not looking. Then you might think of a reason.

I understand you were probably trying to simplify with the pfc statement. 

[Ksbee]

36 minutes ago, snoshoe said:

Probably not in this app but if you ever had a corn planter that the marker would raise as you crossed the field or a big round baler that the twine arm would feed the twine into the bale when you're not looking. Then you might think of a reason.

 

I have had a marker on a JD 7200 6 row slowly raise.  Always wondered why it did that.

[snoshoe]

@HydroTek I owe an apology. My popoff valve spring must have broke this morning. The two examples I brought up don't hold water as using motor return won't fix either. For that I apologize. About pfc not being closed center and being hybrid. I stand my ground. Valves have no flow in neutral. That is closed center. Pump destrokes to no flow. That is closed center. 00-60 series used a gear pump and closed center valves. I would call that a hybrid. IH draft control valves are closed center. Up until pfc they were supplied by gear pumps. Guess you could call them hybrids also. The difference between pfc and what the sprayer manufacturer is calling closed center is low pressure standby. That requires a signal line to accomplish. The other system uses high pressure to destroke the pump maintaining high pressure and no flow. With sprayer valve set to closed center. Pfc would also go into high pressure standby. Difference is in pfc there is a high pressure valve in compensator that is constantly squealing at high pressure. While flow is low pump performance is sure to suffer as needle and seat erode. @Ksbee motor return will not fix marker problem. Using float position might. Problem is signal line pressure (standby) leaking past spool in control valve.

[ZG6E]

4 hours ago, HydroTek said:

The motor low pressure return main functions, are to supply a low back pressure return for hydraulic motors, and to keep from applying a shock load on the return when the motor oil is suddenly turned off. Motors such as used on air planters can blow the shaft seal or snap a shaft , if connected into the regular couplers

There is no benefit from returning equipment auxiliary oil into the motor low pressure return. 

I like to return anything with constant flow to the motor return because in theory it should create less heat not having to be restricted by the remote.

[FarmerFixEmUp]

I have a sprayer with an Ace 206 hydraulic pump, I use the motor control valve, but the only hydraulics on the sprayer besides the pump are wing tilt.  On a 5488. Ace calls the  hydraulics  load sensing closed center, and they also describe pressure compensating closed center on other tractors, like a 4440 Deere. 

https://www.acepumps.com/_Assets/Literature/HYD-MAN REV 12-11.pdf

 

https://ihsg.acepumps.com/ihsg/

 

https://ihsg.acepumps.com/ihsg/apPumps.php?makeid=8&page=0&modelid=1113

[brahamfireman]

1 hour ago, ZG6E said:

I like to return anything with constant flow to the motor return because in theory it should create less heat not having to be restricted by the remote.

It also goes through a filter before returning to sump, should anything on the implement explode metal chunks should get caught before rear end.

[HydroTek]

6 hours ago, snoshoe said:

@HydroTek I owe an apology. My popoff valve spring must have broke this morning. The two examples I brought up don't hold water as using motor return won't fix either. For that I apologize. About pfc not being closed center and being hybrid. I stand my ground. Valves have no flow in neutral. That is closed center. Pump destrokes to no flow. That is closed center. 00-60 series used a gear pump and closed center valves. I would call that a hybrid. IH draft control valves are closed center. Up until pfc they were supplied by gear pumps. Guess you could call them hybrids also. The difference between pfc and what the sprayer manufacturer is calling closed center is low pressure standby. That requires a signal line to accomplish. The other system uses high pressure to destroke the pump maintaining high pressure and no flow. With sprayer valve set to closed center. Pfc would also go into high pressure standby. Difference is in pfc there is a high pressure valve in compensator that is constantly squealing at high pressure. While flow is low pump performance is sure to suffer as needle and seat erode. @Ksbee motor return will not fix marker problem. Using float position might. Problem is signal line pressure (standby) leaking past spool in control valve.

My skin is thicker than that -- you were right to call me out on that -- You and I both understand how the system works and the differences in the pumps

I used the term hybrid, so I would not need to write a treatise on the operational difference of a PressureFlowCompensated pump and a PressureCompensated pump (and Gear pump) -- some here may not be educated on the different types of systems. I was trying to shortcut the conversation, but seem to have raised questions instead.

Yes the valves are actual closed center, but the difference is in how the pump is controlled, as you know . The PFC system runs at low pressure standby pressure until a SCV is operated (or steering in some models) and sends a signal to the compensator to raise the pressure in the system .  The benefit of this system is the pump is running low pressure (380-410) at low standby -- saving heat and power . The problem comes when external valving is used that does not have a signal line . The tractor SCV can be flow regulated down to overcome the heat and power, but that means educating the customer .

The JD system you mentioned, uses a Pressure Compensated pump that destrokes the pistons in the pump when the system is filled -- and keeps that at high pressure . When a SCV is used the loss in system pressure causes the "compensator" to allow the pistons to engage the pump camshaft again . This type of system uses more power during starting of the engine -- just crank a 30-40 series JD in the winter and you see the difference quickly . The older JD used an orifice in the equipment pressure line to control oil usage from the tractor -- Anytime you put JD equipment on a Red tractor, need to remove the line orifice .

Nuff of that typing -- what models are you referring to with " 00-60 series used a gear pump and closed center valves" ?

The old 3-400 series Farmalls (back in the day) used a gear pump and closed center valving -- some of the JX models (and later) used the same type of system (depending on pump options) - made working on them a chore, trying to figure which pump and valves . These used an unloading valve to interface the gear pump with the closed center valves .

This stuff side tracks the OP's discussion -- if you want we can continue in DM's -- or not

[snoshoe]

I thought the op should know he did have a closed center system and why he did not want a closed center valve on sprayer. If you're good. I'm good. No discussion needed.

[billonthefarm]

FWIW…..I ran a 5088 on a couple of pull type sprayers and I ran the pump off the outlet nearest the door and the booms off the one closest to the seat.  Worked fine over many acres and many years.  The 5088 was a good spray tractor!  

[Cdfarabaugh]

I often wonder why valving in a lot of thus new equipment does not have load sense capable hydraulic valves.  Would save a lot if headaches on newer tractors as youd simply have to utilize a power beyond setup and not use up a remote.