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Interational 404 Power Steering


Adam - NC

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The power steering on my project tractor isn't acting right.  Once the hydraulics primed and the lift started working, the steering would spin the sheel pretty violently when I attempted to steer the tractor.  I figured out I could put very light pressure on the steering wheel in one direction, and the front wheels would turn in the opposite direction.  If I try to force the wheel in the direction I want to turn it has enough pressure on it that I can't move it.  

Reading that probably doesn't make sense, but any help is appreciated.  Is it maybe just air in the system and I need to run the tractor for a while and cycle the wheels back and forth?  Or maybe a relief valve stuck somewhere?

 

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The 404 utility uses a steering motor (?) under the dash and a cylinder on the front axle.  I haven't had it apart, but there is no telling what the previous owner has done.  So far I've found a new distributor with no insulator on the terminal for the power to the points, and the throw out bearing fork in the wrong place.  

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Been a long time since I have worked on one of those -- look at the steering system used on the '06 series

there is a directional valve between the steering motor and cylinder -- this has a centering spring

The Farmall models used a charlynn unit in the steering shaft, and worm steering in the front bolster

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51 minutes ago, Adam - NC said:

The 404 utility uses a steering motor (?) under the dash and a cylinder on the front axle.  I haven't had it apart, but there is no telling what the previous owner has done.  So far I've found a new distributor with no insulator on the terminal for the power to the points, and the throw out bearing fork in the wrong place.  

Reverse the lines on the cylinder.

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As best I can tell, the previous owner at some point was able to drive and use the tractor, and says he didn’t do anything to the steering, so I’m doubting it’s hooked up backwards.  Could it be air in the cylinder?  Or a stuck pressure relief?  My fix it and flip it project is looking more like a tear down and rebuild, and never see my money again.

 

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1 hour ago, HydroTek said:

Does your steering wheel connect to a hydraulic motor or to a shaft that runs to the front of the tractor ?

From the pictures in his project thread, all of the above. One picture shows a shaft running to the front bolster like a normal Super C/240 style steering. Another shows a cylinder on the front axle.

This is the parts breakdown of the 404 power steering. Far as I can tell no valve like that.

404steering.jpg.039d0e728a34538f343b33441d965c6b.jpg

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If it's orbit motor to hydraulic cylinder I think it was apart and not timed correct before you got it. Looks very similar to what happened when our 621 wheel loader lost steering and the employee took motor apart and then this issue started. He then ordered a pump, problem stayed and I insisted the pressure relief valve be changed (original problem) and then I got a new orbit motor to get it working in the end 

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On 6/12/2023 at 10:13 AM, Adam - NC said:

The power steering on my project tractor isn't acting right.  Once the hydraulics primed and the lift started working, the steering would spin the sheel pretty violently when I attempted to steer the tractor.  I figured out I could put very light pressure on the steering wheel in one direction, and the front wheels would turn in the opposite direction.  If I try to force the wheel in the direction I want to turn it has enough pressure on it that I can't move it.  

Reading that probably doesn't make sense, but any help is appreciated.  Is it maybe just air in the system and I need to run the tractor for a while and cycle the wheels back and forth?  Or maybe a relief valve stuck somewhere?

 

I'd almost guarantee it is the steering motor out of time . Pretty sure it is the same as our wheel loader was . It would kinda kick back (the steering wheel) to the opposite direction that you were trying to steer .... 

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Thanks for the info guys - It will be a bit before I get into the steering, I have to split it to fix the clutch.  It went from slipping with the throw out bearing fork installed wrong to not releasing with it installed right.  I'm thinking I need to split it and fix the clutch correctly next.

 

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So much for that plan.  All the sheet metal is already off, so I popped the steering wheel and dash off after work.  I don’t see any evidence that the steering motor has been touched lately, but the previous owner did change the steering wheel.  The new one was not install tightly, so it came off easily.  Any chance he could have damaged something getting the old steering wheel off?  There are grinder gouges in the shaft, so it didn’t come off easily.

Time to go find the manual and see home to get into the steering motor.

IMG_6020.thumb.jpeg.33f408f49145742103d8615cd591b753.jpeg

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I got far enough into it last night to be able to disconnect 4 lines and remove the steering motor, but I chickened out.  I can't see any evidence that it has been touched in recent history.  I'm also moderately terrified to take the steering motor apart.    How difficult is it to get to the pieces that need to be timed?

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One more thing - the auxilliary hydraulic valves were removed from the tractor when I got it.  I purchased the end plate that goes on the valves and bolted that to the tractor without any valves.  Just wanted to make sure this arrangement would work on a 404.

 

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The timing part I mentioned only works for the gerotor types -- the diagram you have posted does not show a gerotor

The Case parts site only shows the gerotor type -- but I suspect the diagram you posted may be more correct . Most of the 404 - 504 that we serviced were manual steering, and I only remember one in particular that had power steering and used a torque motor -- no external steering cylinder.

I think some of the confusion comes from IH using different steering systems, based on Farmall or International models -- and wide or tricycle front .

The diagram you posted shows a directional only valve, which requires the steering cylinder -- but not a torque motor (which would have the gerotor and may or may not use a steering cylinder)

With the directional valve type, there is no hydraulic feed back from the steering , the valve part only ports oil to the cylinder -- Any feed back comes from the steering worm, and on rough ground would have the same "feel" as manual steer -- Can you hold the wheel still when driving ?

A steering motor that is out of time will take the wheel from you and violently oscillate -- good way to break an arm

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Mine has the cylinder on the front axle, and the valve on the steering column looks like the drawing I posted.

But I’ve got the violent oscillation you are describing.

I appreciate the help!

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2 hours ago, snoshoe said:

Sure would have been nice if you had tried swapping hoses first.

The way it's whipping the wheel back and forth I am thinking it's not just hoses backwards to the front cylinder. Possible the hoses backwards to the priority valve would do that also? 

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20 minutes ago, bitty said:

The way it's whipping the wheel back and forth I am thinking it's not just hoses backwards to the front cylinder. Possible the hoses backwards to the priority valve would do that also? 

Hadn't thought of that but yes valve and cylinder directions are reversed somewhere

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On 6/14/2023 at 12:23 PM, snoshoe said:

Sure would have been nice if you had tried swapping hoses first.

I got the carb back on and everything back together enough to run it this afternoon.  Switching the lines to the steering cylinder fixed the steering issue.

Now I just need to fix the clutch, transmission, water pump, alternator, steering wheel / steering shaft, fuel leak, water leaks.....

This has not been my best purchase so far....

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