Jump to content

Early problems with 5488, 5288, 5088 transmissions.


acem

Recommended Posts

I'm nearing completion of my 5488 and have a question about the transmission problems of these tractors.  I want this tractor to be reliable.

These tractors have a reputation down south for electrical problems related to the transmission. After reading on here I expected this was related to the sentry being bypassed. But while taking an axle apart yesterday to replace the bearings Mark was reminiscing about the first time he rebuilt a 5488 transmission. He was a mechanic at the dealership at the time.

They only sold one new 50 series tractor at the dealership where he worked. It was a 5488 purchased by a good customer that only ran red equipment. While it was still under warranty they drove it back to the dealership with transmission problems. The owner was pissed that his new tractor broke. The two speed didn't work but would drive. The tractor was all original and had any repair work done by the dealer. The sentry was still installed.  When he tore it apart one clutch pack was 'welded together', the other exploded and metal throughout the transmission. He rebuilt the clutches, cleaned the hydraulic system, replaced some electrical components and the farmer drove the tractor home. 

This tractor was all original and all costs were covered under warranty. But the farmer traded it in on a new magnum a few years later.

What are the problems with the transmission in general and sentry specifically?

What are the fixes?

My 5488 had the updated clutch packs when we tore it down so it has been rebuilt once before. It has the taller style solenoids under the floorboard. It has a sentry.

I bought the parts from Mike Links and he has been great to work with. Highly recommended!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Matt Kirsch said:

I found this in other threads on the subject. Too bad the entire bulletin does not appear to be out there.

50 series S-4800.PNG

should be able to give that s-4800 number to a guy at the parts counter at your local mother case and they can print it off for you or at least mine does

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, 88power said:

should be able to give that s-4800 number to a guy at the parts counter at your local mother case and they can print it off for you or at least mine does

After being out for almost 40 years, you'd think someone would have scanned it and posted it in its entirety by now. $20 says Mike Links has it framed and hung on a wall in his office.

Also found mention of another TSB: S-5002

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9003 hours on our 5088. Had a missing sentry when Dad bought it in 2002. 

The 88 series transmission problems only seam to exist here on the internet where only bad problems get discussed.  I also think they're great over exaggerated like the 560 rear end problems were. 

Everything will break, new equipment breaks, some guys can break anything, some guys can get every penny out of their equipment. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's the deal... The problems didn't happen with ALL the tractors. Maybe not even a majority of them. All it takes is just significantly more than the normal expected failure rate.

Time and again, you read these posts "It didn't happen to mine. Mine is just fine. These problems are overblown." No, you were still statistically more likely to NOT have a problem than you were to have one. Even if 20% of the tractors had problems, you had an 80% chance of getting a good one, but the tractors would still have an AWFUL reputation. In reality they want <1% coming back for warranty claims, and it doesn't take much more than 1% to hurt your reputation.

I love how if people don't have problems, it's "overblown" but if they do have a problem they will go to their grave cursing the brand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The dealership that I worked at sold around a dozen of the 88series. Had some issues with the pressure switches on the Sentry system and some minor electrical issues. The majority of internal transmission failures was caused by too fine of spline on the hi/lo clutch packs. We probably had 9-10 transmission failures due to disc teeth failing. It didn’t seem to matter horsepower size as we saw equal failures across the whole line. The countershaft in the speed transmission was also an area of concern. They had gears on the shaft that were free to float and the shaft was drilled and lube pressure was used to prevent wear. However the gears being helical cut caused gear teeth to fail due to misalignment.The replacement countershaft had the gears keyed and gears had to be heated to install on the shaft. We only had two tractors that had this problem. IH stood behind the 50 series pretty well and paid for some that were out of warranty. 
There was never an official “Update” program nor were we instructed to stamp the serial number plate. That would have been done as a dealer action. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as bulletin S-4800, that's still easy to find. The problem is.....most of the part #s are subbed up, discontinued, lead you down a rabbit hole, etc. Its all the other 50 series bulletins that CaseIH has made rather hard to find anymore that disappoints me. I've still got all the 50 series bulletins in a binder......but right now there's a 6' snow drift in front of my storage shed that has all those bulletins. 

For a tractor that was built in smaller quantities and a relatively short time frame, the 50 series sure had a lot of production changes, bulletins, updates, you name it. 

As far as the 50 series drivetrain, I would venture to guess that most of them have had the Hi/Low(or odd/even) clutches updated by now. Sure, somebody will come on here and say otherwise, but those showed up fairly early in their life. The countershaft update(the gears were press fit to the shaft, and locked to the shaft with a Woodruff key) was more commonly done on the 52/5488s. The 5088s could usually use the "cheater gear" that allowed them to have the updated Hi/Lo clutches while still using the older countershaft that had the gears loosely fit to the splines on the countershaft. The cheater gear was bulletin S-5200.

S-4800 #1.png

S-4800 #2.png

S-4800 #3.png

S-4800 #4.png

S-4800 #5.png

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, that should be bulletin S-5002, not 5200. Apologize for the error.

ace, I was going to comment more on your post a couple weeks ago comparing early to late 50 series by showing various IH service bulletins. As I noted above, those bulletins are inaccessible right now for me.

S-5002 #1.png

S-5002 #2.png

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, acem said:

I'm nearing completion of my 5488 and have a question about the transmission problems of these tractors.  I want this tractor to be reliable.

These tractors have a reputation down south for electrical problems related to the transmission. After reading on here I expected this was related to the sentry being bypassed. But while taking an axle apart yesterday to replace the bearings Mark was reminiscing about the first time he rebuilt a 5488 transmission. He was a mechanic at the dealership at the time.

They only sold one new 50 series tractor at the dealership where he worked. It was a 5488 purchased by a good customer that only ran red equipment. While it was still under warranty they drove it back to the dealership with transmission problems. The owner was pissed that his new tractor broke. The two speed didn't work but would drive. The tractor was all original and had any repair work done by the dealer. The sentry was still installed.  When he tore it apart one clutch pack was 'welded together', the other exploded and metal throughout the transmission. He rebuilt the clutches, cleaned the hydraulic system, replaced some electrical components and the farmer drove the tractor home. 

This tractor was all original and all costs were covered under warranty. But the farmer traded it in on a new magnum a few years later.

What are the problems with the transmission in general and sentry specifically?

What are the fixes?

My 5488 had the updated clutch packs when we tore it down so it has been rebuilt once before. It has the taller style solenoids under the floorboard. It has a sentry.

I bought the parts from Mike Links and he has been great to work with. Highly recommended!

 

Those are pressure sensors under the floor, and were the most common source of aggravation. The current sensors supplied are shorter and fatter. 

Which leads to, the regulated pressure is spec'ed as 235 PSI minimum, that's not really enough. Adjust the regulated to 270-290 psi and everything will work better.
There are two different style regulators used, adjusting the regulated is different according to which valve you have.

Just as important is electrical system maintenance. Moving the power source for the Sentry from the left battery to inside the cab gives a more reliable current flow.
Some tractors had a relay at the bottom right corner of the electrical compartment. The Sentry was grounded through that socket for the relay. Separate the ground and attach it either to support near the Sentry or, I have run the Sentry ground down to the left ground strap attachment under the cab. nothing else is grounded there so it would give the Sentry a clean ground.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, brahamfireman said:

9003 hours on our 5088. Had a missing sentry when Dad bought it in 2002. 

The 88 series transmission problems only seam to exist here on the internet where only bad problems get discussed.  I also think they're great over exaggerated like the 560 rear end problems were. 

Everything will break, new equipment breaks, some guys can break anything, some guys can get every penny out of their equipment. 

I've always said as long as you keep the seat warmers and steering wheel holders off of them they will do fine but the same can be said for other brands not just from that time frame but in general

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the information.

None of my friends or close acquaintances ever owned a 5x88.

Three people I knew slightly did. All were 5488s and had problems early. The one mentioned in my previous post. Another who had 'transmission electrical problems'. The last one burned up in a shop. I never heard if the tractor or shop was the cause for the fire.

My friend at the salvage yard has salvaged several 5x88s. All that sells good is the engine, differential,  side panels and grills. The rest usually gets scrapped.

Are there any gears, clutch packs, etc I should get when he is scraping one?

They would be inexpensive to me.

Thx-Ace 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, acem said:

Thanks for all the information.

None of my friends or close acquaintances ever owned a 5x88.

Three people I knew slightly did. All were 5488s and had problems early. The one mentioned in my previous post. Another who had 'transmission electrical problems'. The last one burned up in a shop. I never heard if the tractor or shop was the cause for the fire.

My friend at the salvage yard has salvaged several 5x88s. All that sells good is the engine, differential,  side panels and grills. The rest usually gets scrapped.

Are there any gears, clutch packs, etc I should get when he is scraping one?

They would be inexpensive to me.

Thx-Ace 

I wouldn't trust a used clutch pack unless they could prove it was a low hour one, if your just getting parts to put on the self for spares i would get any of the fan fan shafts brackets etc. get all the park pawl assembly including the linkage that runs up the side of the trans, earlier ones have a different one then new ones but those should sale good either way last i check they're NLA, if any of the harnesses are good get them. the little cover over the bottom radiator hose they like to rot if it's good get it radiator itself i've had to replace everyone we have or had it repaired, the pto valve under the tank on top of the rear end give me a little while and ill prob think of something 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, SDman said:

Sorry, that should be bulletin S-5002, not 5200. Apologize for the error.

ace, I was going to comment more on your post a couple weeks ago comparing early to late 50 series by showing various IH service bulletins. As I noted above, those bulletins are inaccessible right now for me.

S-5002 #1.png

S-5002 #2.png

5088 #8685 listed on this bulletin as the starting point for the update is 8 serial numbers beyond the supposed final production number 8677. Reminds me of the incorrect 3488 production numbers in the same publication(s).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Drysleeves said:

5088 #8685 listed on this bulletin as the starting point for the update is 8 serial numbers beyond the supposed final production number 8677. Reminds me of the incorrect 3488 production numbers in the same publication(s).

It has been covered on here before. There was no tractor made with the updates. They sold out and quit before the updates were to be introduced into the lineup.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, SDman said:

For a tractor that was built in smaller quantities and a relatively short time frame, the 50 series sure had a lot of production changes, bulletins, updates, you name it. 

In a way though, not so surprising as 1) the 50 series was a clean sheet design and 2) IH probably didn’t put the R&D into it they should have for $$$$ reasons.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will agree , the failures happened very early on , ours spent the first year in the shop .

I always thought it was an early model .

Its at my boys house ,but i think its 3758

 

It made 3 trips to the shop , 3 rd fixed it .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, tommyw-5088 said:

I will agree , the failures happened very early on , ours spent the first year in the shop .

I always thought it was an early model .

Its at my boys house ,but i think its 3758

 

It made 3 trips to the shop , 3 rd fixed it .

As was mentioned they were new designs so some of the issues could have been lack of understanding by service personal. As models with new features get introduced there always is a learning curve and as time passes people begin to understand what makes everything tick and work together they find a small piece that wasn’t right that ruined a big piece. Case in point the regulated pressure circuit or whatever the proper name is will cause havoc on the 88 series transmission if it is low in pressure that leads to bigger problems. As time goes by the technicians learn enough about all systems to thoroughly fix and diagnose problems. Classic case is def, dpf systems. Now that we are 10 years in we understand them way better instead of delete, delete, delete you first heard when they came out.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, acem said:

 

Are there any gears, clutch packs, etc I should get when he is scraping one?

They would be inexpensive to me.

Thx-Ace 

JMHO, but I would sure think a speed transmission with all the updated parts would be worth some coin to somebody, somewhere. I don't remember if it was on RPM or somewhere else, but a few years ago somebody said all the parts for the updated countershaft were north of $5K from CNH, if you can even find them anymore. I would think an updated countershaft assembly would be worth half that. I'm sure there are still some 50 series out there with updated Hi/Lo clutch packs but had the cheater gear installed instead of the whole countershaft assembly that could still grenade the original countershaft. 

As far as the clutch packs, I would rebuild the clutch packs on parts from a salvage yard, but the updated Hi/Lo gears themselves would still have some value as I am sure there are still a few 50 series with the original Hi/Lo clutches out there yet, although I would think they would be getting fewer and fewer all the time.

A couple weeks ago over on nagtalk, there was a guy trying to setup a 50 series to run a brand-new 2150 CaseIH planter all off of tractor hydraulics(no PTO pump). I wish the guy luck, but I think he will be disappointed once he gets out in the field with that setup in several different ways. According to him, updating the tractor was out of the question. Looked to me like maybe he should have updated the tractor before he updated planters.....but that's just me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, SDman said:

A couple weeks ago over on nagtalk, there was a guy trying to setup a 50 series to run a brand-new 2150 CaseIH planter all off of tractor hydraulics(no PTO pump). I wish the guy luck, but I think he will be disappointed once he gets out in the field with that setup in several different ways. According to him, updating the tractor was out of the question. Looked to me like maybe he should have updated the tractor before he updated planters.....but that's just me.

The hydraulic demands on tractors to run all the components of a modern planter are insane. Even the newer models struggle and it doesn't matter the color as I've heard a lot of horror stories and experienced some of them myself. Best bet is a self contained hydraulic system on the planter to take some of the load off the tractor since the on board coolers are heavily taxed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...