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new shop update


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  • 1 month later...

Finally making some progress with new shop.  Got the grade to grade and compacted, Put the Styrofoam insulation down.  Today we  put the in floor heating tubing in.  Need to finish perimeter insulation and have inspection of the heating and then can pour floor.  

floor tubing 1.jpg

floor tubing 2.jpg

floor tubing 3.jpg

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Nice what are you choosing for your heat source? I used the same Styrofoam but suspended the tubing mid slab depth.

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2 hours ago, hardtail said:

Nice what are you choosing for your heat source? I used the same Styrofoam but suspended the tubing mid slab depth.

We attached the tubing to the concrete wire and pulled it up a couple of inches as we poured. 6” floor, put the tube about 4” deep.

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The structure, all with wood and with "small" beams are impressing me

It is cheaper than "big" beams building and perhaps better when you receive a big load of snow!

Here in France, we build with iron, excepted on mountains or some cows or sheep buildings

But the thing who impresses me the more... Floor heating!!! AWESOME :)

I watch pics of your workshops in the US and often you have clear and clean space to work! But with floor heating it is so great!

What will be the heat source? Diesel, gas, ?

Keep posting pics of you job, I enjoy this

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Are you using rebar. I put #4 on 24” centers with 3” chairs to suspend it mid way in the 6” slab . The Pex is attached to the rebar with aluminum tie so not to damage tube. I recommend pressurizing the tube and monitoring a gauge during the pouring so an issue can be addressed while the mud is wet. The flat work guys are going to be all over that tube with come-alongs and shovels. We did not have any punctures but it was very comforting to see the gauge holding pressure as the slab cured.  I like the idea of having known spots where you know you could drill for anchors. I wish I had done that.   Good luck

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We will keep system pressurized during pour.  They are planning using conveyor to place concrete.  We are using macro fibers which is stronger than re-bar.  The guy that designed the system for me recommends placing tubing right on top of the insulation.  He works for a jobber who supplies all the HVAC equipment for 9 states.  The building inspector was impressed with installation.  He stated that very rarely does he see the red pex tubing as it is much stronger that what The Home Depot sells and cost much more.  I was able to buy all the components for less than what the big box stores sell the lesser quality materials.  I can't believe the mark up.  The boiler we got cost less than half.  Have a great day.  If you are lucky enough to still have mother around makes sure and wish them a great Mother's Day.

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4 hours ago, just Dave said:

I used fibers also, it is helpful but I have never heard of big pours without rebar. Do you know of examples with a some years on them?

I’ve torn out enough concrete, and enough concrete that had fiber in it, to be convinced fiber is worthless.  It breaks apart just as easy as any other concrete with no fiber and no rebar.  If you want durable concrete, you need to spend money on 1) sub grade stability, 2) concrete thickness and 3) rebar.

Edit to add, another fairly important aspect to concrete longevity is to get crack control cuts made as soon as possible.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Shop is almost done.  Floor in place, they finished insulation of walls and putting steel on yesterday.  The overhead door goings today and ceiling insulation early next week.  Electrical should be done in a week or so.  Been fun project, we are looking forward to moving all my tools and stuff out of my trailer so I can go pulling.  Thanks for following the journey.  

concrete finshed west view.jpg

ceiling.jpg

lined s side.jpg

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Looks great!  Where did you source all your heated floor fittings and tubing from?

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18 hours ago, JaredT said:

That's not a shop, no oil spots on the floor and nothing sitting around😉

That won't last long!!

I signed the paperwork on a new shop recently, wont be going up until next year but still pretty excited.

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Sorry for delay in replying,  I sourced my tubing for the heat from my engine builder brother who works for a HVAC supplier.  The design work and installation was done by their design engineer as side job.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/15/2023 at 6:46 AM, Gearclash said:

I’ve torn out enough concrete, and enough concrete that had fiber in it, to be convinced fiber is worthless.  It breaks apart just as easy as any other concrete with no fiber and no rebar.  If you want durable concrete, you need to spend money on 1) sub grade stability, 2) concrete thickness and 3) rebar.

Edit to add, another fairly important aspect to concrete longevity is to get crack control cuts made as soon as possible.  

Fwiw..... I think a shop will be fine but yeah...our entire bunker floor was fiber since we were sold its great.  No bar, 6", gravel base.  Took abooooout 6 months to start seeing cracks.  2 years and holes.  When we started repairing spots there was 0 evidence of the fiber holding anything.  It was a obviously there during pour but didn't do anything.  We also seen the worse spots the gravel was pretty thin.  Guy should ofnadded 6" to the entire pad to get a better base grade.  But it is what it is.  When we repair spots we are 8" with 12x12 rear after digging hole our 6 8" and putting fresh sandy pit run in and tramping it down.  Shop prob be fine but heavy traffic with loaders and truck fiber isn't nothing.

 

That shop is pretty.  Simple and functional....love it

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On 6/27/2023 at 7:12 AM, TroyDairy said:

Fwiw..... I think a shop will be fine but yeah...our entire bunker floor was fiber since we were sold its great.  No bar, 6", gravel base.  Took abooooout 6 months to start seeing cracks.  2 years and holes.  When we started repairing spots there was 0 evidence of the fiber holding anything.  It was a obviously there during pour but didn't do anything.  We also seen the worse spots the gravel was pretty thin.  Guy should ofnadded 6" to the entire pad to get a better base grade.  But it is what it is.  When we repair spots we are 8" with 12x12 rear after digging hole our 6 8" and putting fresh sandy pit run in and tramping it down.  Shop prob be fine but heavy traffic with loaders and truck fiber isn't nothing.

 

That shop is pretty.  Simple and functional....love it

I brought that up before the pour, hopping to save him some agony.

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I guess I need to explain why fibers and based 30 years plus of doing pavement research I respectively believe fiber are better that rebar or wire mess for controlling cracking.  First of all you need to make sure your base is solid. When we prepared the site last fall, we removed the organic soils and compacted the sandy loam soil to 95% max density. (I ran the tests) We then put 12 inches of MNDOT class 5 gravel in 3-inch lifts compacted to max density.  Having read you post I believe some of your issues are not enough binder in gavel to supply strength.  As far as not see any signs of fiber are you sure the supplier put them in and if they did, they did you check to see if they were uniformly distributed.  Since i am data guy and have access to testing equipment I cast strength cylinders.  To see how much strength, we gained using 3 lbs. of macro fiber.  The concrete mix used was 4500 psi mix design without fibers the 7-day breaks were over 6000 psi for the cylinders.  Normally 4500 psi concrete from this supplier would have 7-day strengths around 5000 psi.  

How the issues I have with rebar. 

1.  to work properly the rebar must be place exactly 1/3 of the way from bottom of slab.  Any higher you risk spalling of the concrete and lower you do not get value for reducing crack.  What you're trying to do with steel or fibers is to control micro cracks from forming.  The micro cracks if not sealed will allow water in which will case issues with marginally constructed base and spalling of the concrete.   IMO the only way to guarantee placement is to use chairs to put the rebar on.  Per specification the maximum chair placement is 2 feet apart.  The unknown about placing rebar on chairs is did any of them get knocked over while placing the concrete.  The rebar being supported above the base is a trip hazard also.  

2 being we placed tubing for in floor heat I did not want to risk low steel damaging the tubing.

3 If you place rebar in concrete that is rusty you risk pack rust from forming.  This can be a issue if the PH of you aggregate is wrong.

As far as long-term performance.  MNDOT has use fiber for over twenty years on Interstate highways.  The areas they use them are over what they call trench support areas or high-water table areas.  Before fibers they use to build rebar mats out #12 rebars on 1-foot gride supported on chairs. The oldest one where they replace the rebar mat with fibers was place across a swamp I35 W just south of Minneapolis in 1998 and the pavement rides good and has no middle panel cracks.  

I would leave you all with this thought, use what every you comfortable with, there is may ways to build a good concrete pad.  

Last point the Romans showed us how to build roads.  The 2 key points they left are;  good drainage and proper density are crucial.  

Have a safe and Happy 4th.  

Tom 

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So... Shop envy here. Nothing like a nice new building. Congratulations. I like it.

I am a rebar guy myself. Concrete is gonna crack sure as it's going to get hard. Tore enough out in my younger days when that was my daily job to see about every manner of pour. I've seen fiber reinforced crete crack and heave. The wire mesh just stretches as it heaves. Rebar does too but from what I've seen, to a lesser degree. And I've seen it all from water pipe and barbed wire to railroad track poured in as reinforcement! I do believe however with your floor being heated, you may escape that. You should be able to keep frost from getting under just by having the warmth.  My next pour will be over pex. That much I know. 

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3 hours ago, twood1954 said:

I guess I need to explain why fibers and based 30 years plus of doing pavement research I respectively believe fiber are better that rebar or wire mess for controlling cracking.  First of all you need to make sure your base is solid. When we prepared the site last fall, we removed the organic soils and compacted the sandy loam soil to 95% max density. (I ran the tests) We then put 12 inches of MNDOT class 5 gravel in 3-inch lifts compacted to max density.  Having read you post I believe some of your issues are not enough binder in gavel to supply strength.  As far as not see any signs of fiber are you sure the supplier put them in and if they did, they did you check to see if they were uniformly distributed.  Since i am data guy and have access to testing equipment I cast strength cylinders.  To see how much strength, we gained using 3 lbs. of macro fiber.  The concrete mix used was 4500 psi mix design without fibers the 7-day breaks were over 6000 psi for the cylinders.  Normally 4500 psi concrete from this supplier would have 7-day strengths around 5000 psi.  

How the issues I have with rebar. 

1.  to work properly the rebar must be place exactly 1/3 of the way from bottom of slab.  Any higher you risk spalling of the concrete and lower you do not get value for reducing crack.  What you're trying to do with steel or fibers is to control micro cracks from forming.  The micro cracks if not sealed will allow water in which will case issues with marginally constructed base and spalling of the concrete.   IMO the only way to guarantee placement is to use chairs to put the rebar on.  Per specification the maximum chair placement is 2 feet apart.  The unknown about placing rebar on chairs is did any of them get knocked over while placing the concrete.  The rebar being supported above the base is a trip hazard also.  

2 being we placed tubing for in floor heat I did not want to risk low steel damaging the tubing.

3 If you place rebar in concrete that is rusty you risk pack rust from forming.  This can be a issue if the PH of you aggregate is wrong.

As far as long-term performance.  MNDOT has use fiber for over twenty years on Interstate highways.  The areas they use them are over what they call trench support areas or high-water table areas.  Before fibers they use to build rebar mats out #12 rebars on 1-foot gride supported on chairs. The oldest one where they replace the rebar mat with fibers was place across a swamp I35 W just south of Minneapolis in 1998 and the pavement rides good and has no middle panel cracks.  

I would leave you all with this thought, use what every you comfortable with, there is may ways to build a good concrete pad.  

Last point the Romans showed us how to build roads.  The 2 key points they left are;  good drainage and proper density are crucial.  

Have a safe and Happy 4th.  

Tom 

Well said.  The pad is 90% of the battle.

Just noting our experience with a feed yard/bunker.  The 8" with 10x10 steel has been flawless.  You'd pass out in E WA.....I have seen 10,000s of feet of huge barns poured....0 sub material.  Just grade the clay/loam soil and water/pack and run the gramaco. 

 

On a side here the state does not use fiber that I am aware of.... but it is common to use Slag, from Japanese industrial "sweepings" which get ocean barged into Seattle, mixed into cement at a particular %.  Sort of a fortification system.

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