Oliver and White

[superih]

Not to hijack the 1256 vs D21 thread.  I'm curious what happened to Oliver how did White get involved?  Was Oliver on hard times?

[TractormanMike.mb]

I don't know if Oliver was on hard times or not. I just know that white motors bought them, cockshutt, and Minneapolis Moline in the early 60s. Oliver 66 farm boy on YouTube has a good video explaining the whole thing.

[DT Fan]

I believe White bought Oliver in the early 60's and MM not too long after. Someone correct me if that's wrong. They built the '55 series through 1976 it looks like. I'm not sure if Oliver was on hard times though that is likely the case.

From what I've studied recently, the White tractors seem to be mostly Oliver with updates.

Eventually AGCO bought WFE.

Tractor Data says White bought Oliver in 1960 and MM in 1963. AGCO acquired them in 1991 and built silver tractors until 2001.

My greatest question in all of this; With all the brands AGCO sucked up, why did they choose MF to keep??? AGCO stands for, Allis Gleaner Co., right?

[jass1660]

15 minutes ago, DT Fan said:

I believe White bought Oliver in the early 60's and MM not too long after. Someone correct me if that's wrong. They built the '55 series through 1976 it looks like. I'm not sure if Oliver was on hard times though that is likely the case.

From what I've studied recently, the White tractors seem to be mostly Oliver with updates.

Eventually AGCO bought WFE.

Tractor Data says White bought Oliver in 1960 and MM in 1963. AGCO acquired them in 1991 and built silver tractors until 2001.

My greatest question in all of this; With all the brands AGCO sucked up, why did they choose MF to keep??? AGCO stands for, Allis Gleaner Co., right?

Because worldwide MF is the most popular tractor sold when you take Europe into account. 

[KY2674]

Do they still make Challenger wheel tractors? Our local Cat dealer got completely out of ag a few years ago. Now they handle Western Star trucks on the side. 

[DT Fan]

6 minutes ago, jass1660 said:

Because worldwide MF is the most popular tractor sold when you take Europe into account. 

Ok, did not see that one coming!

[Big Bud guy]

Between the time Harry Fergurson parted ways with Ford and the merger with Massey, he pumped the free world full of his T 20 series tractors.  Over half million in 9 years in 117 different countries.  Thats how MF got to be the most popular brand world wide.  Compared to the competition Massey Harris market share was minuscule and the only thing they could hang their hats one was their self propelled combines. 

[hillman]

thats not surprising DT, few know MF was the Worlds largest manufacturer for years, Wasn't just Europe , they had sales in 165 countries and territories.with Britian a huge sales sucess

I cannot  comment on Oliver or MMs profits but I can comment that Cockshutt was a victim of a hostile takeover due to their shares selling at a bargain price because they paid poor dividends( the Cockshutt kept the money in the company to insure a firm financial footing) they were dissected for their valuable assets

 These excerpts are taken from" Massey at the Brink "by Peter Cook- a MF version of Corporate Tragedy - they were very similar stories

Case name post 1985 - I think the Tenneco purchase of IH and the four letter word 'cAsE" surviving is a sore spot to some ppl  is the fact JI Case shouldn't have made it out of the 60s 

 

 

[IHandJDman]

In a book I have about Oliver, they tried to merge with Case first in the late 50s and then even with Cummins. A pair of corporate raiders got ahold of Oliver, spun some of the things off and then sold it to White.  Without White motor Oliver would have been done by the late 50s early 60s also.  

[766 Man]

1 hour ago, hillman said:

thats not surprising DT, few know MF was the Worlds largest manufacturer for years, Wasn't just Europe , they had sales in 165 countries and territories.with Britian a huge sales sucess

I cannot  comment on Oliver or MMs profits but I can comment that Cockshutt was a victim of a hostile takeover due to their shares selling at a bargain price because they paid poor dividends( the Cockshutt kept the money in the company to insure a firm financial footing) they were dissected for their valuable assets

 These excerpts are taken from" Massey at the Brink "by Peter Cook- a MF version of Corporate Tragedy - they were very similar stories

Case name post 1985 - I think the Tenneco purchase of IH and the four letter word 'cAsE" surviving is a sore spot to some ppl  is the fact JI Case shouldn't have made it out of the 60s 

 

 

  MF had a major presence in Africa and South America and somewhat in Australia.  

[hillman]

1 hour ago, Big Bud guy said:

Between the time Harry Fergurson parted ways with Ford and the merger with Massey, he pumped the free world full of his T 20 series tractors.  Over half million in 9 years in 117 different countries.  Thats how MF got to be the most popular brand world wide.  Compared to the competition Massey Harris market share was minuscule and the only thing they could hang their hats one was their self propelled combines. 

the purchase of Perkins didn't hurt either. Ferguson was an inventor not so much a great businessman it was a perfect fit and Massey run with it,

[searcyfarms]

16 minutes ago, hillman said:

the purchase of Perkins didn't hurt either. Ferguson was an inventor not so much a great businessman it was a perfect fit and Massey run with it,

and now cat owns part of the perkins lines and uses them in their small equipment, perkapillar

[U-C]

2 hours ago, Big Bud guy said:

Between the time Harry Fergurson parted ways with Ford and the merger with Massey, he pumped the free world full of his T 20 series tractors.  Over half million in 9 years in 117 different countries.  Thats how MF got to be the most popular brand world wide.  Compared to the competition Massey Harris market share was minuscule and the only thing they could hang their hats one was their self propelled combines. 

I don't think Ferguson made that many of the TE or TO 20's because the Ford 8N still holds the top spot on the most made tractors of a single model

[cedar farm]

A couple of things hurt Oliver. The big farm recession in the late 50's hurt everyone. Oliver, Case and Allis all came out with new models just as it hit. Deere, Ford and IH either had the same or warmed over existing models. The other was Oliver did the same thing as IH did when they were flush with cash after the war. Expanded into areas they should have stayed out of. Recreation, construction and pursuing government contracts. Things a small company like Oliver could not weather. 

Whites ownership was a mixed bag. White was scraping off the top of Oliver's profits to shore they're other industries. They mixed and matched engines and drivetrain. Things got ugly for them with the overtaxed Waukesha engine fiasco. Like Allis's drivetrain problems they never recovered they're lost customers. 

White did finally figure out a new line of tractors was needed to stay in business. The large frame 2-135/2-155/2-180 were a clean sheet of paper design introduced in 1977 that stayed in production into the 1990's. But like IH 50 series it was to little to late. White was bankrupt early on in the farm crisis.

[U-C]

1 hour ago, IHandJDman said:

In a book I have about Oliver, they tried to merge with Case first in the late 50s and then even with Cummins. A pair of corporate raiders got ahold of Oliver, spun some of the things off and then sold it to White.  Without White motor Oliver would have been done by the late 50s early 60s also.  

same thing happened to Cockshutt with the corportate raiders I think the Cockshutt family made a mistake when they went public with there company to get more capital so they could expand 

[766 Man]

10 minutes ago, cedar farm said:

A couple of things hurt Oliver. The big farm recession in the late 50's hurt everyone. Oliver, Case and Allis all came out with new models just as it hit. Deere, Ford and IH either had the same or warmed over existing models. The other was Oliver did the same thing as IH did when they were flush with cash after the war. Expanded into areas they should have stayed out of. Recreation, construction and pursuing government contracts. Things a small company like Oliver could not weather. 

Whites ownership was a mixed bag. White was scraping off the top of Oliver's profits to shore they're other industries. They mixed and matched engines and drivetrain. Things got ugly for them with the overtaxed Waukesha engine fiasco. Like Allis's drivetrain problems they never recovered they're lost customers. 

White did finally figure out a new line of tractors was needed to stay in business. The large frame 2-135/2-155/2-180 were a clean sheet of paper design introduced in 1977 that stayed in production into the 1990's. But like IH 50 series it was to little to late. White was bankrupt early on in the farm crisis.

  I was not around for or was young during a lot of those days up to 1980.  I recall it said that Oliver was used as a cash cow going into the late 1960's and early 1970's.  Oliver had things such as 400 cubic inch engine and IVT ready to build but that would require investment that ownership was not willing to make.  That White trucks were about the only passion that ownership had and failed over and over again to make it a true rival of IH and others in the heavy truck business.  I have also heard it said that some Oliver tractors had durability issues which were made during the second half of the 1950's that led to declining sales.  I always was a fan of the brand in general.

[Ihfan4life]

19 minutes ago, cedar farm said:

A couple of things hurt Oliver. The big farm recession in the late 50's hurt everyone. Oliver, Case and Allis all came out with new models just as it hit. Deere, Ford and IH either had the same or warmed over existing models. The other was Oliver did the same thing as IH did when they were flush with cash after the war. Expanded into areas they should have stayed out of. Recreation, construction and pursuing government contracts. Things a small company like Oliver could not weather. 

Whites ownership was a mixed bag. White was scraping off the top of Oliver's profits to shore they're other industries. They mixed and matched engines and drivetrain. Things got ugly for them with the overtaxed Waukesha engine fiasco. Like Allis's drivetrain problems they never recovered they're lost customers. 

White did finally figure out a new line of tractors was needed to stay in business. The large frame 2-135/2-155/2-180 were a clean sheet of paper design introduced in 1977 that stayed in production into the 1990's. But like IH 50 series it was to little to late. White was bankrupt early on in the farm crisis.

Pushing that Waukesha into the 55’ series with a turbo was the same as the 560 fiasco with IH.
 

I’m not sure how clean a sheet of paper they used… Isn’t the 2-135/155 and 2-180 the same 3speed over/under and 6 speed transmission? 
I thought the White influence was the later series that was a joint venture with Cat, and AGCO. Perhaps that was after WFE was out of the picture…🤔

[766 Man]

24 minutes ago, U-C said:

I don't think Ferguson made that many of the TE or TO 20's because the Ford 8N still holds the top spot on the most made tractors of a single model

  I was always told that MF had what might be called a protected status in the British Empire which had great reach.  As the Empire eroded during the 1950's and 1960's MF equipment got spread around in Africa and Asia as no alternatives were around for the most part.  Maybe tariffs were assessed on "imported" equipment during those days.  The MH combines eventually MF combines being no small part.  In the Wayne Broehl book about JD discussion was made about JD teaming up with MH-MF which would give JD instant market reach outside of the US.  I'm glad that JD never went down that road.

[Big Bud guy]

39 minutes ago, U-C said:

I don't think Ferguson made that many of the TE or TO 20's because the Ford 8N still holds the top spot on the most made tractors of a single model

 

 

My info comes from several different sources and TE 20 series had about it seemed like a 100 different sub models mostly differences being the engine which is why the 8n can claim the record.  Also that number doesn’t include the TO series built here in the US.  

[766 Man]

18 minutes ago, Ihfan4life said:

I’m not sure how clean a sheet of paper they used… Isn’t the 2-135/155 and 2-180 the same 3speed over/under and 6 speed transmission? 
I thought the White influence was the later series that was a joint venture with Cat, and AGCO. Perhaps that was after WFE was out of the picture…🤔

  Those Whites share a common ancestory with the Oliver 2150 which had the Hercules 478 along with the 6 X 3 drive train.  Updated hydraulics and cab plus styling for the Whites.  

[Ihfan4life]

18 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  Those Whites share a common ancestory with the Oliver 2150 which had the Hercules 478 along with the 6 X 3 drive train.  Updated hydraulics and cab plus styling for the Whites.  

Yup. Better brakes, wet disc maybe? And I thought the rearends were beefed up. But mostly cosmetic changes. 

[cedar farm]

26 minutes ago, Ihfan4life said:

Pushing that Waukesha into the 55’ series with a turbo was the same as the 560 fiasco with IH.
 

I’m not sure how clean a sheet of paper they used… Isn’t the 2-135/155 and 2-180 the same 3speed over/under and 6 speed transmission? 
I thought the White influence was the later series that was a joint venture with Cat, and AGCO. Perhaps that was after WFE was out of the picture…🤔

The only two carryovers were the o/u 3 speed and the Hercules. But they were updated for the extra power. The Hercules changed the oiling system to include spin on filters. It seems there was a change in the sleeve/pistons as well. The over/under got a revised planetary along with increased oil capacity. I rebuilt quite a few o/u's from Olivers and Whites. Most of them failed because of low or no oil(they have their own reservoir and pump) Some failed when going from over to direct using it as brake when pulling a load of corn down the road. It would usually shear the planetary bolts. This is a Red forum, but that o/u put a t/a to shame in durability.

From midway of the o/u to the drawbar it was all new. The 2-135 ect and the Olivers have as much in common with each other as the 560 and the 806.

[cedar farm]

2 minutes ago, Ihfan4life said:

Yup. Better brakes, wet disc maybe? And I thought the rearends were beefed up. But mostly cosmetic changes. 

Inboard wet planetary's/brakes. Diff lock. Console controls. Combined trans/hyd reservoir. Gerotor charge pump. I could go on. The large frame Whites are NOT updated Olivers. Now the mid size are. 2-70(1655), 2-85 and 2-105(1855) are updated Oliver's. The last two having Perkins instead of Waukesha's

[IH Forever]

4 hours ago, DT Fan said:

I believe White bought Oliver in the early 60's and MM not too long after. Someone correct me if that's wrong. They built the '55 series through 1976 it looks like. I'm not sure if Oliver was on hard times though that is likely the case.

From what I've studied recently, the White tractors seem to be mostly Oliver with updates.

Eventually AGCO bought WFE.

Tractor Data says White bought Oliver in 1960 and MM in 1963. AGCO acquired them in 1991 and built silver tractors until 2001.

My greatest question in all of this; With all the brands AGCO sucked up, why did they choose MF to keep??? AGCO stands for, Allis Gleaner Co., right?

I know it’s splitting hairs but AGCO actually bought White New Idea I believe. Allied New Idea got involved in the early 80’s and it became White New Idea, WFE was gone.

I just toured the Floyd County Historical museum. They have a nice display and information since Oliver and then White tractors were made in Charles City.

[cedar farm]

3 minutes ago, IH Forever said:

I know it’s splitting hairs but AGCO actually bought White New Idea I believe. Allied New Idea got involved in the early 80’s and it became White New Idea, WFE was gone.

I just toured the Floyd County Historical museum. They have a nice display and information since Oliver and then White tractors were made in Charles City.

That is the beauty of Oliver history. It still exists because Allied and then AGCO didn't go into a senseless dumpfest of Oliver archives like the idiots Case people with IH. I never understood why you buy something then turn around and start throwing it away.