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Another TD6 Pump issue "possibly"


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Hello to all and thanks to this forum. Been coming here for years as a guest, viewing topics here through internet searches. Have garnered a lot if information and have just enjoyed reading and picking up some things to store in the ole noggin. I have a 1948 TD6 been in the family since about 1950, I am the only junk collector, hoarder, recipient of goods or willing taker of memorabilia in my family. They all got knocked in the head while growing up and their lifestyles are much different, they have spectacular homes and yards ūüė†¬†where there is not one iota of anything lying around collecting dust. Nevertheless, I ended up with the farm and farm equipment, that is more than I could ask for, I did have to work for it though.

So, my issue is, the TD has always been a performer and has never in its life had an issue with either the gasoline or diesel side, other than having to do a bleed after rotted hose breaks or changing filters and of course it has ran out of fuel a few times. In April of 2022 I was going to move it. Historically, it starts every time on gas, most often we use the hand crank, this thing always fires after three up pulls. In April when I was going to move it, she would not fire on the diesel change over, kept trying to no avail. Went to all my manuals and nothing except the scavenger valve was something to be questioned. This, just because I reviewed everything and nothing other than it sitting for five months and the "possible" sticking scavenger valve came to mind. I have since thought that all this new green fuel we have in California could be the cause, very dry fuel.  I was not running Red Dye Fuel (out here that is ag fuel) but buying it at the station as I do in my 5.9 Dodge. I have done a lot of reading here on this subject and before I pull the pump and go to the plunger re: the check and reverse check valves I have one question regarding the scavenger valve. My valve is not in the open position and I have not yet determined that it is even stuck in the closed position.

Question: What would be the result to the injection system if the scavenger pump valve (in the tappet) is stuck in the closed position? 

I understand by my IHC books and everything I have read here at RedPower that when stuck open, the valve allows fuel in the pump and it thins the oil, (not always as the result of the seal). This is not my case with the thinning of the pump oil. My problem is I have no fuel or pressure at the injectors and the TD6 does not fire when changing over to diesel. 

Note: I did put two new filters on and did the bleed, nothing is dirty in my system, no lines are broke, no air is in my system. I want to know from some of you pros about what is the result of a scavenger valve stuck in the closed position?? I have not did the test to see if it is stuck in the closed position because I do not have an extra cap laying around (in which IHC says you can drill a 1/8" inch hole and see if it is moving).

Thanks to all, Jess

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Thanks Ian for the response. My pump is an IH No. 653060 unit  early type pre "A" single plunger, it does not have a guage. As to the separator, was all drained when the filters was changed. No dirt, no sludge. All linkage is free on the pump, primary pump is pressurizing the filters and lines. Crack the injectors and just a little residue comes, no flow, no spit. Even tried to start by moving the throttle over the middle, nothing happening here.     Jess,

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Pre "A".  Same pump, meaning it does not have the "A" on the casting. My tractor serial number is TDK19999, Engine block serial number is TDBKM 15132. I am guessing my tractor was made near the end of the year, maybe an autumn build by the serial sequence, definitely a 1948 build. IHC was still using this pump without the "A" on the casting. The pump is original and has never been changed or off the tractor.     Note: Just trying to provide as much pertinent information.   Jess,

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I'm thinking the rack maybe stuck and not allowing fueling?

@rustred has lots of topics and experience with these, I think you can remove the oil fill cover, disconnect the pump linkage and then move the lever to see if the rack is moving accordingly 

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Jess, two things come to mind the rack being stuck closed as hardtail has said. For the scavenger valve open cap and make a wire hook and see if you can get it to move in and out, if not it could be stuck. If stuck closed it will not allow fuel flow back to tank so pump will not make pressure.

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Thank you also hardtail and oldiron29.  I will have to look into it more and study to see if the rack is stuck. When taking off the throttle linkage from the pump, I do have free and full movement in the arm. Of course, like the parts in the plunger or the rack being stuck, I have no real way of knowing at this point which it could be. Will be searching out on the site about how to free the rack up. Trying to avoid taking the pump of if it is not necessary. Will do more reading on the subject.  Thanks again to all, Jess

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Here is a similar thread that has a lot of info, unfortunately OP never responded if he got it fixed

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8 hours ago, oldiron29 said:

Jess, two things come to mind the rack being stuck closed as hardtail has said. For the scavenger valve open cap and make a wire hook and see if you can get it to move in and out, if not it could be stuck. If stuck closed it will not allow fuel flow back to tank so pump will not make pressure.

Re that scavenger valve - 

Check and see if you can still get the rubber seal before you pull that valve out.  It is a square section and not an O-ring.  BECAUSE, as I recall from the handbook, you are supposed to replace that seal if you do pull it out.

If you can't get a seal  use the hook and just see if it moves.

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Thanks again guys,

I will remove the control lever and pull the oil filler cap and see what is going on with any rack movement through that hole,,, baby steps.

 

Jess,

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Before you get drastic - maybe

Seeing as you don't have a pressure gauge you could break the fuel return pipe there around the pump-filter area, reassemble the scavenger valve  and see what sort of a flow you get with it running?  I don't remember if you can see the end of the return pipe in the tank.

If the flow looks like it is pressurised then likely something like the rack

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Ian and hardtail are in the running for 1st. Prize. I did some review and went into the pump through filler cap for the lubricating oil. The rack adjustment threaded protrusion was stuck in the outward position toward the pump body. Made a tool to push it in, a 16" piece of round stock with a polyethylene  tube around the end of it. It did take considerable force to move it back into the bore of the pump body. Made another tool to extract it toward the primary pump (a 3/8" copper tube flattened and driven onto a 3/8" wide flat blade screwdriver). It took some prying and I repeated this five times each way and using Brake Kleen on the out stroke and then applying PB Blaster before pushing it back in.

After the five in and outs, I was able to grab the control lever and I could move it manually. I went back and forth 160 times and it was freeing up more and more, kept cleaning and applying lubricant. Continued operating the lever another 160 back and forths and all is free. Hooked up all linkages and operates well. I never did extract the scavenger valve just because of the seal. Will fill the pump up with oil next and give it a go and see if it will pressure up the injectors. Hopefully so, still a possibility that the return check valve and the reverse check valve could be stuck also. One thing at a time. Thanks again to all who have chimed in here. Will post again after the next attempt to run. Jess,

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Just in case you haven't clicked on how those pumps work - high pressure is generated with the plunger pump under the dome nut (nuts with TD 18s which have 2).  The rack then works the control valves for the injection quantity.

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10/4 Ian,

Not trying to be depressed here but that was what I was thinking as I have pressure to the filters and previously none to the injectors. Thus, as I said, I still may have some problems at the plunger check valves. I will go forth though. Thanks again, Jess

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Kind of have to systematically go through the problem, rack was a problem solved now to test and eliminate or move on to next item

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7 hours ago, G.S. Meiningen said:

10/4 Ian,

Not trying to be depressed here but that was what I was thinking as I have pressure to the filters and previously none to the injectors. Thus, as I said, I still may have some problems at the plunger check valves. I will go forth though. Thanks again, Jess

It sounds like you are running on petrol?

If so I'd fill that tank and start it up.  Then set it for a "power prime" - iirc it is in the handbook for priming after changing fuel filters.

For this you also open the diesel throttle about half.  It will smoke whitish (and lots of it) if the injectors are getting fuel. 

In your case they may not.  Now that you have lube around the rack area maybe if you leave it run this way warmth and pressure might nudge things the right way.

Hardtail might add to this.

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That's correct when it's running on gas move your switchover lever up a bit not enough to trip the linkages to switch but enough that it will prime the diesel side, Ian is correct you should have a bit of change of color on the exhaust if diesel is finding its way into the combustion chamber 

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2 hours ago, hardtail said:

That's correct when it's running on gas move your switchover lever up a bit not enough to trip the linkages to switch but enough that it will prime the diesel side, Ian is correct you should have a bit of change of color on the exhaust if diesel is finding its way into the combustion chamber 

Hardtail

IIRC you just have to crack the diesel throttle.  Been a long time though but I don't remember fiddling with the change over.

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Agreed hardtail,

 And that has been my focus as should all who encounter this issue. I have probably read 40 or 50 percent of the post's regarding TD6 and TD9 injection pump issues over the years, mine is no exception. No matter if you are pressurized at the filter or even have a free rack, if up the ladder to the combustion chamber there is no fuel, you have to as you said, "systematically go through the problem". There are steps to this, No. 1, have a full tank of fuel above the height of the auxiliary and final filters, then go from there. I am here now, and my machine has never had any pump issues. I said earlier about dry fuel, (maybe) and it could be condensation or even crud/debris, as M Diesel always points out, after all, most of these units are 60 and 70 years or more old. And yes Ian, I am running on gas so warming the thing up is going to be in a future try, I would be delighted if "the nudge " will move things the right way

Thanks Rawliegh for your thoughts as you know the fuel is dry these days, I have the tank full and will add two quarts of SuperTech before I even get near to firing this thing off, I was actually gonna try to prime the water separator with Marvel Mystery Oil or EssentiaLube and get it up into the plunger and let it set for a month or two before I ever pull the plunger out. I had read this somewhere and thought it probably could not hurt. I got plenty of time to do so, anything that can soften up the debris, crud or condensation. If it is condensation, alcohol probably would not hurt to dry it up. Nevertheless, as has been discussed, baby steps or dont get to "drastic". Thanks again to all. Jess,

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Ian yes that's exactly what I was trying to say

KOO swore by a little 2 stroke in every tank refill, getting some in the filters makes it closer to delivery to the pump

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Good idea with a soaking. I've also had good luck with seafoam in the filters cranking it over a few times to get it through the system and not letting it fire off. Good luck. This is certainly the easiest way to start. Then you can work back towards more difficult solutions it just doesn't help.

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Rawliegh,

How are you getting the Seafoam into the system or filters ?? Jess

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Fill the filter with it and put them back on.  Or does yours have a horizontal filter.  You can also disconnect the fuel line and use a rubber hose over the end to stick in the seafoam bottle.  It smells funny burning, so you will know when it is fully in the system.

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8 hours ago, Rawleigh99 said:

Fill the filter with it and put them back on.  Or does yours have a horizontal filter.  You can also disconnect the fuel line and use a rubber hose over the end to stick in the seafoam bottle.  It smells funny burning, so you will know when it is fully in the system.

Those filters are vertical element type so you can't fill them before assembly.  They do have fuel drains at the bottom and air bleeds at the top.   So you might get it into the filter from the top - patiently I'd guess.

As it is likely to be running for a while maybe dump a dose into the fuel tank without stirring (even run it down a hose so it goes to the bottom) and is pushed around the pump with the fuel return?

And maybe just run it for about 5 minutes and shut down so it is concentrated in the pump for a while, whereas running longer will be mixing it in with the fuel.

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