585 clutch insanity

[jimb2]

5 hours ago, Farmer rock said:

 

this is the one I have, I'll try and get the sn as soon as possible

My brother and I did two clutch jobs on his CIH tractors this past spring/summer.
His CIH 495 had the same clutch/pressure plate and bearings as above and it had the clutch pedal without the return spring but no plastic spacer.
His CIH 3230, two generations newer than the 585 being worked on had the same clutch kit as above plus the plastic spacer between throughout bearing and pressure plate fingers and again no return spring on the clutch pedal. According to the CIH parts person there was a serial number break on the 3230 as to 11" or 12" clutch. My brother's was an early 3230 and had the 11" clutch same as his IH 454, 474, 684 and 495.
The 3230 has been a loader tractor since early 2002 and this was the first clutch replacement and after we got it split the problem was one of the adjustment bolts on the pressure plate had came loose and backed off some the finger was no longer moving the pressure plate enough to release the clutch disk. The clutch probably had enough pad thickness to do another year or so and the throughout bearing was good as well and that plastic spacer had protected the pressure plate fingers from wear. We decided to replace clutch, pressure plate and bearings and we re-used the plastic spacer as the kit that he bought from CIH did not include it.

[Diesel Doctor]

If you have not been able to move the inner screw after loosening the lock nuts on the pressure plate, you may have saved yourself a lot of money.

To adjust the pressure plate, it goes into a fixture with a big bolt that comes up the center.

You look up the application and use the spacer required and put that over the big bolt.

Then an adapter goes on that presses on the fingers of the pressure plate.

The big nut is turned down until the fingers are pressed down and the nut stops.

Then you look up the application and it should say to use one of the supplied blocks of a given thickness. Say 1.25".

You then use that block under the outer rim of the pressure plate. 

You use that block like a huge feeler gauge.

Now you adjust those inner bolts, with the lock nuts, until the block just slides under the rim of the pressure plate.

When the same, all around the rim, lock the lock nuts and the pressure plate is set.

It is now ready to be installed.

This gives the idea as to how to do it, but, you need the dimensions of the block and the fingers before this would work.

What I am saying is if you moved the adjusters, you either need to reset on an IH fixture or get a new pressure plate.

PS: I seen one of these fixtures sell for $5 at a sale 15 years ago and I did not buy it.

This would have been the first time I would have needed it.

This gives you the idea as to how this is done, rudely and crudely. No one shows the IH fixture.

 

[Farmer rock]

3 hours ago, Diesel Doctor said:

If you have not been able to move the inner screw after loosening the lock nuts on the pressure plate, you may have saved yourself a lot of money.

To adjust the pressure plate, it goes into a fixture with a big bolt that comes up the center.

You look up the application and use the spacer required and put that over the big bolt.

Then an adapter goes on that presses on the fingers of the pressure plate.

The big nut is turned down until the fingers are pressed down and the nut stops.

Then you look up the application and it should say to use one of the supplied blocks of a given thickness. Say 1.25".

You then use that block under the outer rim of the pressure plate. 

You use that block like a huge feeler gauge.

Now you adjust those inner bolts, with the lock nuts, until the block just slides under the rim of the pressure plate.

When the same, all around the rim, lock the lock nuts and the pressure plate is set.

It is now ready to be installed.

This gives the idea as to how to do it, but, you need the dimensions of the block and the fingers before this would work.

What I am saying is if you moved the adjusters, you either need to reset on an IH fixture or get a new pressure plate.

PS: I seen one of these fixtures sell for $5 at a sale 15 years ago and I did not buy it.

This would have been the first time I would have needed it.

This gives you the idea as to how this is done, rudely and crudely. No one shows the IH fixture.

 

Do those jam nuts directly adjust the springs in the pressure plate?

That's the only adjustment I found.

I did end up adjusting them, but it didn't make a difference.

I have the old pressure plate to compare it to, do you think I can get it close enough to reset? I was adjusting it on the flywheel, tightening and loosening as needed. Would the fixture still be needed?

Thank

[Farmer rock]

Alright, so I finally got it back in neutral and got that part taken care of.

I put to together a press to re adjust the fingers. Ran out of time tonight, but I'll get back to it after church tomorrow.

I swung by messicks, and picked up that bushing just for kicks, and spacers. I'm going to throw everything at it, see what changes.

Also, kind of hard to explain, but I bolted 2x4s across the front axle on each side to stop it from tipping while split, and I covered up the sn tag by doing so.

I'll get it back together and see what happens, if needed I'll get the sn.

 

I really appreciate all the help guys, thank you.

 

 

Rock

[Farmall Doctor]

What is your flywheel step?? 

[Farmer rock]

1 hour ago, Farmall Doctor said:

What is your flywheel step?? 

1.406

[Farmall Doctor]

Are you going to have that corrected?

[Diesel Doctor]

21 hours ago, Farmer rock said:

Do those jam nuts directly adjust the springs in the pressure plate?

That's the only adjustment I found.

I did end up adjusting them, but it didn't make a difference.

I have the old pressure plate to compare it to, do you think I can get it close enough to reset? I was adjusting it on the flywheel, tightening and loosening as needed. Would the fixture still be needed?

Thank

The jam nuts are jam nuts only.

The screws in the center do the adjusting and they do nothing to the springs.

The screws adjust the fingers and the distance from the throw out bearing.

Of course IH, set this standard so anyone could take the pressure plate apart, replace springs, fingers, wear surface, etc. and then get it back to specs so it works right.

When I worked on these, I could get all the parts, and replaced a lot in the pressure plates.

I had the IH approved fixture and then adjusted them back to that tractors specs. This was done all the time.

When the pressure plate is in the fixture, or on the flywheel, the center screws can rather easily be moved.

When not in either place, you cannot move them.

I seen one of these fixtures sell on the IH dealer sale at Onida, SD. It sold for $5.00.

This would have been the first time I could have used it.

[Farmer rock]

6 hours ago, Farmall Doctor said:

Are you going to have that corrected?

I was going to add spacers under the pressure plate at this point.

I just finished up re adjusting the pressure plate. I used a feeler gauge, and set them the same as the old one. .275 under the stops at full compression.

After work tomorrow I'll put it and give it another shot

 

 

Rock

[Farmall Doctor]

Good grief!! All this trouble, you know where the issue is, and stil.... You can not simply put spacers under the PPA. The flywheel recess centers it. But whatever, go for it. 

[England806]

8 hours ago, Farmall Doctor said:

Good grief!! All this trouble, you know where the issue is, and stil.... You can not simply put spacers under the PPA. The flywheel recess centers it. But whatever, go for it. 

I have seen this done many times. As long as the spacers do not lift the cover out of the locating recess it isn’t a problem. It works but not ideal. Far better to get machining correct in the first place. .030-.040 will make a substantial difference to finger height. 

[CIHTECH]

15 minutes ago, England806 said:

Far better to get machining correct in the first place. .030-.040 will make a substantial difference to finger height. 

Yes and yes. Not only will it correct the problem, it will save the next guy the same headache

[England806]

1 hour ago, CIHTECH said:

Yes and yes. Not only will it correct the problem, it will save the next guy the same headache

I’m with you on that!  I get all the headaches from others. 674 clutch job. Flywheel had .280 machined from the face. Drive plate was rubbing against flywheel bolt heads. Most would buy a new flywheel and while you’re at it replace the 1/2 worn through pto driveshaft. New seals and front bearing in the trans while you’re in there. No. He said what can you do. Joking I said I could machine the flywheel again (looks like it’s been done more than once) machine the centre of the flywheel deeper for clearance on the bolt heads. Remove the pto drive hub from the pressure plate and turn it over and refit it in the back to push it into the unworn part of the splined shaft. Space the throw out bearing forward a bit.  I never expected him to say do it!    But it works. He’s happy and using it. I will keep quiet with any future ideas like that!

[Farmer rock]

Last evening I gave it a shot, and something definitely changed. I've proper spacing between the pressure plate and throw out bearing, and now I have a ton of clutch throw. The issue remains though, it will not disengage.

I'll spend a little more time adjusting the pedal today, but I just feel like I'm missing something. I added a 1/16th washers all around as well.

 

Rock

[England806]

Long shot. Check the drive plate did not get damaged during installation. Had a DB 995 that clutch would not release. Put drive plate in a lathe and put a dial gage on it had about .250” runout. Centre hub had got bent when reassembling the two halves of the tractor. The owner said he had difficulty getting the two halves together. 

[Farmer rock]

How easy is it to bend one of these discs?

I'm really starting to wonder if that's what happened. I can't find another possibility. The disc had quite a few opportunities to be damaged.

 

 

Rock

[worm]

look here

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IH-Farmall-Mccormick-International-Dealer-Clutch-and-Pressure-Plate-Setup-Tool-/153763283495?_ul=IL

 

[England806]

12 hours ago, Farmer rock said:

How easy is it to bend one of these discs?

I'm really starting to wonder if that's what happened. I can't find another possibility. The disc had quite a few opportunities to be damaged.

 

 

Rock

I have bent a db clutch. Not obvious it had happened either. Rolling the two halves together. Wouldn’t quite engage. A bit of rocking and pushing by hand was sufficient to do damage. 
if you have room and access at the bottom of the clutch housing it’s better to slide the pressure plate and clutch onto the shaft. Roll the two halves together then bolt the pressure plate from the apperture underneath. 
if you do have to assemble the clutch to the flywheel first I usually file a small chamfer on the drive plate splines to guide them in. (Bit more difficult on the pto drive hub on the back of the pressure plate as it’s harder but you can use a diamond file) 

you can also grind a little more chamfer on the shaft wher it goes into the spigot/pilot bearing in the flywheel. (Don’t go mad and grind it to a point though!). 
if you have some long studs you can use in the bolt holes as guides that will help in lining things up. If all is lined up correctly the two halves should push together relatively easy. If they don’t rotate the engine a little by hand until things do line up.   If you use bolts to pull the two halves together it’s very easy to damage something. 

[Diesel Doctor]

12 hours ago, worm said:

look here

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IH-Farmall-Mccormick-International-Dealer-Clutch-and-Pressure-Plate-Setup-Tool-/153763283495?_ul=IL

 

That is the genuine article.

And it has the spec sheet and everything.

Only $610.00 delivered to your door.

[Diesel Doctor]

I have seen some of these come bolted together.

There was about three bolts running through the backing plate into the pressure plate face.

This compressed the pressure plate and I guess made it smaller for shipping.

Those bolts had to be removed before using it.

 

[jimb2]

My brother and I when doing a clutch job on the 74/84/85/95/32XX/42XX IH/CIH series tractors we always do like England806 says, put the pressure plate(with hold down clips in place) and clutch plate on the transmission/PTO shafts, push the front half of tractor back together until transmission shaft is started in the pilot bearing, this will leave a gap of about 3/8 inch gap between engine and transmission at the bell howsing, next put in the long bolt on both the right and left side, tighten nut with fingers so the two halves cannot come apart.
With one person working through the clutch inspection hole and another on the left side of tractor with big flat blade screw driver or pry bar using the bolt previously installed as a fulcrum stick the screw driver into the flywheel ring gear and rotate the flywheel until the first pressure plate bolt holes on flywheel align with holes in pressure plate, install the two bolts about 1/3 their length, rotate flywheel to the next set of holes again install the two bolts about 1/3, repeat for final two bolts, go around again tightening bolts to 2/3 and again to full tight and final round to torque spec. The hold down clips should drop out the bottom between the 2/3 to full tight. 

[Farmer rock]

1 hour ago, jimb2 said:

My brother and I when doing a clutch job on the 74/84/85/95/32XX/42XX IH/CIH series tractors we always do like England806 says, put the pressure plate(with hold down clips in place) and clutch plate on the transmission/PTO shafts, push the front half of tractor back together until transmission shaft is started in the pilot bearing, this will leave a gap of about 3/8 inch gap between engine and transmission at the bell howsing, next put in the long bolt on both the right and left side, tighten nut with fingers so the two halves cannot come apart.
With one person working through the clutch inspection hole and another on the left side of tractor with big flat blade screw driver or pry bar using the bolt previously installed as a fulcrum stick the screw driver into the flywheel ring gear and rotate the flywheel until the first pressure plate bolt holes on flywheel align with holes in pressure plate, install the two bolts about 1/3 their length, rotate flywheel to the next set of holes again install the two bolts about 1/3, repeat for final two bolts, go around again tightening bolts to 2/3 and again to full tight and final round to torque spec. The hold down clips should drop out the bottom between the 2/3 to full tight. 

I bet that's what I did wrong. I've been mounting the clutch on the flywheel before sliding the tractor back together.

I'm gonna call all state ag today, and order a new disc. I'll try it from underneath this time like you said.

Thanks

 

Rock

[jimb2]

I forgot to mention we always position the pressure plate so one of the legs is at the bottom before pushing front end of tractor back together.

[CDN 400]

Get the flywheel cut to the proper step while its apart.

[snoshoe]

1 hour ago, CDN 400 said:

Get the flywheel cut to the proper step while its apart.

You can't cut metal back in. Step is cut too far. To correct would have to cut clutch face further. Disc hitting bolt heads is a real thing. .040 shims are the sensible answer. .062 washers are going to leave spring pressure low.