Farmer rock Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Ok, been a while since I've been on here. Hope everyone is well. My 87 585 was desperately in need of a clutch job. Got it split, got everything installed nice and easy....or not... It seemed no matter what I did, there was too much space between the pressure plate and throw out bearing as well as not enough throw to fully disengage the clutch. I split it again to make sure the disc was facing the correct direction, it is. All of the parts in the kit are identical, and the flywheel was resurfaced. I have split it like 5 or 6 times at this point, and am about to go nuts. Everything checks out, although today I did notice through the inspection hole, the pressure plate fingers are sucked a lot compared to the old one. Like an inch and half or 2 difference. Which makes sense. However I'm not sure how to adjust those fingers. The nuts don't seem to move anything. Just when I thought I figured out the issue, and what to correct, it lost neutral. It's always in gear now. I have a hard time believing that is connected to a clutch issue, but it seems like too much of a coincidence. What am I missing? I can really use the help, thanks. Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoshoe Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 First thing I'd be suspicious of is flywheel step machined to wrong dimension. Next is dampener portion of disk hitting flywheel bolts(flywheel machined to far)? Fingers are best adjusted in a fixture. Can be done in flywheel with careful measurement. Don't know which clutch you have but there is probably not the amount of adjustment you're looking for unless your comparing new to old. Which brings to mind thickness of the new disk. Sorry I do not have any of these specs in my head. Access to a manual would be required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 7 minutes ago, snoshoe said: First thing I'd be suspicious of is flywheel step machined to wrong dimension. Next is dampener portion of disk hitting flywheel bolts(flywheel machined to far)? Fingers are best adjusted in a fixture. Can be done in flywheel with careful measurement. Don't know which clutch you have but there is probably not the amount of adjustment you're looking for unless your comparing new to old. Which brings to mind thickness of the new disk. Sorry I do not have any of these specs in my head. Access to a manual would be required. The flywheel step was machined to spec, and I did make sure it was the correct specs for it. I can't say whether or not it was machined too far, it was original at 3800hrs on a clutch disc that was down to the rivets, and then machined, so it's possible. This tractor has the 11inch clutch, mechanical linkage. Unfortunately I couldn't compare the two discs since the old one was shot What's the best way to adjust the fingers then? I'd hate to split it again for that if not needed. Thanks Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoshoe Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 I've already said the best way is in a fixture. I will not tell you that it can not be done in the tractor. Difficult to do and your apt to windup with choppy engagement. Can't hand you details. I would think a Rockford with screws in end of fingers would be obvious. Other setup has locknuts on slotted fulcrum screws. Can think of none with just a nut to turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdfarabaugh Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Some clutch vendors put spacers under the fingers to.save on having to.draw the pressure plate in against spring pressure when installing. Make sure they didnt get caught and are holding the fingers up from moving out. AG parts uses hex nuts in theirs and one got wedged on me before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Doctor Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Does it have the XL cab? Some of Those models had a plastic spacer 1/2” thick between the release bearing and the clutch fingers. I’ve never seen that on a 585, but I can check my microfiche tomorrow to see if that was an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 5 hours ago, Cdfarabaugh said: Some clutch vendors put spacers under the fingers to.save on having to.draw the pressure plate in against spring pressure when installing. Make sure they didnt get caught and are holding the fingers up from moving out. AG parts uses hex nuts in theirs and one got wedged on me before. That sounds spot on. I got the clutch kit from all state ag. There's a hex nut for each finger on this one like you said. I'm just having a heck of a time figuring those out. Even the old pressure plate adjustments wouldn't budge either way, so I know I'm doing something wrong. Thanks Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 5 hours ago, Farmall Doctor said: Does it have the XL cab? Some of Those models had a plastic spacer 1/2” thick between the release bearing and the clutch fingers. I’ve never seen that on a 585, but I can check my microfiche tomorrow to see if that was an option. No cab, open station. I had heard something about those bushings, and they really confused me. I'm still not sure if it's supposed to be there or not, but I didn't take one out. Thanks Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 8 hours ago, snoshoe said: I've already said the best way is in a fixture. I will not tell you that it can not be done in the tractor. Difficult to do and your apt to windup with choppy engagement. Can't hand you details. I would think a Rockford with screws in end of fingers would be obvious. Other setup has locknuts on slotted fulcrum screws. Can think of none with just a nut to turn. There not set nuts, they are jam nuts, and I can't move the stud, so it won't adjust anything. I've taking pressure off, put pressure on, and I can't get them to move. The entire stud will loosen up and not affect the finger. Almost feels like there is a retainer somewhere, but I don't see any. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIHTECH Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) Does your clutch linkage have a light duty spring on cross shaft arm pulling down on it? Or does it have a heavy spring on top / front of pedal, pulling pedal up against a positive stop? If you have a spring pulling down, it's self adjusting and will require a spacer on release bearing. Will add that a 585 can be branded IH or CaseIH, then there is a even a serial break in the CaseIH series also. Edited January 29 by FarmallFan fixed image link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
England806 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Check as others have said. Also check new pressure plate dimensions. (Flywheel mounting face on the pressure plate to clutch face on the pressure plate) have had three new ones over the years that were wrong height. Two were so tight the fingers were down against the cover when bolted to flywheel the other was so loose it would barely grip the drive disc when bolted up. Just because something is new it doesn’t mean it’s right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 3 hours ago, CIHTECH said: Does your clutch linkage have a light duty spring on cross shaft arm pulling down on it? Or does it have a heavy spring on top / front of pedal, pulling pedal up against a positive stop? If you have a spring pulling down, it's self adjusting and will require a spacer on release bearing. Will add that a 585 can be branded IH or CaseIH, then there is a even a serial break in the CaseIH series also. http://dy5vgx5yyjho5.cloudfront.net/images/v2/180x180-Y7z6tDjQ43qRx283389.jpg It has a heavy spring pulling up on the pedal. I'll check the serial number this evening. Thanks Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Doctor Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 8302084 | Release Bearing, 2.373" ID (hy-capacity.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Doctor Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 17 minutes ago, Farmer rock said: It has a heavy spring pulling up on the pedal. I'll check the serial number this evening. Thanks Alot of the older models had the clutch pedal re-worked to use the "pull-up" spring by adding the pedal height adjusting set screw and spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 2 hours ago, Farmall Doctor said: Alot of the older models had the clutch pedal re-worked to use the "pull-up" spring by adding the pedal height adjusting set screw and spring. It does have a set screw for adjusting the pedal up stop. Also, it has 2 springs pulling up on the pedal, one was added. Do you think that bushing is needed then? Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Doctor Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Better get the serial number, and do you know what clutch you have? Look here.... Clutch | Clutch Parts | Tractor Clutch | Hy-Capacity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 2 hours ago, Farmall Doctor said: Better get the serial number, and do you know what clutch you have? Look here.... Clutch | Clutch Parts | Tractor Clutch | Hy-Capacity this is the one I have, I'll try and get the sn as soon as possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Doctor Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 That particular clutch is not the constant running release bearing style, so the spacer shouldn't be needed. Is the flywheel step spec you used 1.443" ? Are all 6 PPA mounting bolts pulling the "ears" in all the way to the flywheel? Sometimes it takes some finesse to get it perfectly centered and drawn into place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 58 minutes ago, Farmall Doctor said: That particular clutch is not the constant running release bearing style, so the spacer shouldn't be needed. Is the flywheel step spec you used 1.443" ? Are all 6 PPA mounting bolts pulling the "ears" in all the way to the flywheel? Sometimes it takes some finesse to get it perfectly centered and drawn into place. I used 1.406. that was the only reference I could find in multiple places. The pressure plate seems to be seated properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 I'm wondering if the flywheel was worn back enough that it's messing up the clutch throw. Not to mention the machining. The pressure plate adjustments didn't seem to do anything, I split it again in hopes for the pressure plate adjustments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIHTECH Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 The correct step is 1.443 Here when we do a clutch job the first thing we do when we get it rolled back together is install 2 bolts in the bottom. Relax your jacks / splitting stand or whatever your using to support tractor, the 2 bolts will easily hold tractor together, at this time we adjust the clutch before proceeding any further. If we can hold pedal down and rock tractor back & forth then let up on pedal and it will not move the you will be ok. If not you only need to raise jack back up and remove 2 bolts. Hold a straight edge across front of transmission case measure back to your release bearing. Step on pedal how far will bearing travel forward? Next hold straight edge on your release fingers and measure forward to back side of front plate. What's the difference in these measurements? Long long time ago I set a flywheel and clutch up in shop press and measured movement it takes to release disc. Most if not all will release in 3/8 of an inch maybe a 1/2 in some cases. It also helped me understand what's taking place when a clutch is disengaged. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoshoe Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Apparently you need .040 shims under pressure plate legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, CIHTECH said: The correct step is 1.443 Here when we do a clutch job the first thing we do when we get it rolled back together is install 2 bolts in the bottom. Relax your jacks / splitting stand or whatever your using to support tractor, the 2 bolts will easily hold tractor together, at this time we adjust the clutch before proceeding any further. If we can hold pedal down and rock tractor back & forth then let up on pedal and it will not move the you will be ok. If not you only need to raise jack back up and remove 2 bolts. Hold a straight edge across front of transmission case measure back to your release bearing. Step on pedal how far will bearing travel forward? Next hold straight edge on your release fingers and measure forward to back side of front plate. What's the difference in these measurements? Long long time ago I set a flywheel and clutch up in shop press and measured movement it takes to release disc. Most if not all will release in 3/8 of an inch maybe a 1/2 in some cases. It also helped me understand what's taking place when a clutch is disengaged. Awesome information, thank you. I didn't think about taking those measurements, I've kind of gotten to the point of frustration so not thinking clearly...lol I had the rear jacked up to see if the wheels would spin in gear with the clutch in. Something weird happened and now it's stuck in gear even in neutral. I suppose I'll check that out tomorrow morning first. Even with the tractor split it does that, so something is definitely bound up. I'll take those measurements in the morning, but do you think I could a spacer in front of the throw out bearing or behind flywheel if necessary? I'm just hoping the flywheel is usable I'm about at my witts end here. I know I'm missing something, I'm just hoping it ain't my marbles,lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer rock Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 14 minutes ago, snoshoe said: Apparently you need .040 shims under pressure plate legs. I'm curious, would 040 make such a difference. Could I add a little more thickness? I have it apart again now, I'll probably try some thin washers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoshoe Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 .010 makes a difference. You're machined .040 to far. Try .040 shims. You probably don't need to do anything else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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