Cookin' with gas...

[766 Man]

  Now they are talking one deadline regardless if your old heater/furnace or stove has failed or not.  If they are still working by the deadline they have to be yanked out of your home.  The talk where I am is agriculture will not be given any exemptions for work shops or grain dryers.  

[Reichow7120]

1 hour ago, 766 Man said:

  Now they are talking one deadline regardless if your old heater/furnace or stove has failed or not.  If they are still working by the deadline they have to be yanked out of your home.  The talk where I am is agriculture will not be given any exemptions for work shops or grain dryers.  

How are they fueling these grain dryers then. No natural Gas means you are down to propane and im assuming that propane is just as evil as NG. Never seen a electric grain dryer ( can you imagine the electricity one of those would suck at a farm level much less a commericial Elevator) 

You are then down to putting it in a bin and blowing air at it and hoping for the best. Leaving it in the field to dry down and feeding the government lives took ( aka the wildlife) which at times could be there to spring before you can harvest and then how much have you lost? Or back to ear corn picking and throwing it in crisis.

I realize im using logic in the face of insanity. But there isn't any other option out there. 

[766 Man]

57 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

How are they fueling these grain dryers then. No natural Gas means you are down to propane and im assuming that propane is just as evil as NG. Never seen a electric grain dryer ( can you imagine the electricity one of those would suck at a farm level much less a commericial Elevator) 

You are then down to putting it in a bin and blowing air at it and hoping for the best. Leaving it in the field to dry down and feeding the government lives took ( aka the wildlife) which at times could be there to spring before you can harvest and then how much have you lost? Or back to ear corn picking and throwing it in crisis.

I realize im using logic in the face of insanity. But there isn't any other option out there. 

  I think the intention is farmers just go out of business.  There is no alternative in my mind that they want.  I really wonder if they want subsistence farming as that would mean a land owning class.  Sorry to be pessimistic but it is hard to ignore what is being said.  Maybe things don't look as dire in other parts of the US.  

  As to the ear corn approach that won't matter at least here.  Agriculture is under great pressure to use fewer chemicals and less fertilizer.  Talk is of an accepted amount per farm versus per acre meaning if you try to crop the entire farm to corn you will not have close to the required amount of chemicals or fertilizer do so.  Not codified yet but by the month there is getting to be more talk along those lines.  Also, a lot of people have adopted a NIMBY attitude towards ag here.  

[Captian Kirk]

So if everybody has the proper gas stove exhaust what's the big deal. Everybody knows it's toxic to use gas ovens without an exhaust. 

[766 Man]

5 minutes ago, Captian Kirk said:

So if everybody has the proper gas stove exhaust what's the big deal. Everybody knows it's toxic to use gas ovens without an exhaust. 

  We are not allowed to talk about the real reason here.  It has nothing to do with science or the concern about people's health.  

[Lars (midessa)]

1 hour ago, Reichow7120 said:

How are they fueling these grain dryers then. No natural Gas means you are down to propane and im assuming that propane is just as evil as NG. Never seen a electric grain dryer ( can you imagine the electricity one of those would suck at a farm level much less a commericial Elevator) 

You are then down to putting it in a bin and blowing air at it and hoping for the best. Leaving it in the field to dry down and feeding the government lives took ( aka the wildlife) which at times could be there to spring before you can harvest and then how much have you lost? Or back to ear corn picking and throwing it in crisis.

I realize im using logic in the face of insanity. But there isn't any other option out there. 

There is always ear corn bins, and corn pickers. What’s old, is new again.

[766 Man]

2 minutes ago, Lars (midessa) said:

There is always ear corn bins, and corn pickers. What’s old, is new again.

  Which is less efficient in terms of capital and labor among other factors when figured on a per acre basis.  Where I am a lot of discussion is happening on fertilizer use under the guise of waterway and bodies of water management.  I don't think that is a problem like it was 50 years ago when every non hay or pasture acre was plowed.  If you have for example 100 acres of tillable land but are only allowed 4,000 lbs of actual N for your farm that means you could plant 20 acres of corn with the target of 200 bushels of corn per acre based on one bushel of corn requiring 1 lb of actual N.  So what do you do about the other 80 acres.  Wheat demand has been better as of late but can go to great surpluses within a season eliminating its viability as a for profit crop.  It also requires N so that takes away from corn.  Barley and oats have very minimal market demand at least here.  Hay used to be a money maker but even demand for that has tapered off as users are producing more of their own needs.  I don't know of anybody who can make a go farming only planting 20 percent of their acres to corn (where the ground is productive enough to plant corn to start with).  As to soybeans immense pressure is happening in terms of using present generation chemicals such as Enlist.  Some of these chemicals are already banned in some counties.  Episodes are happening where such chemicals migrate to orchards, vineyards, and vegetables which creates animosity.  As said above this is mostly in the public debate stage at present but the talk is there to codify most of  the things I have mentioned.  

[Ian Beale]

More on those gas stoves

"In Science, Size Matters. In Climate Science?"

https://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2023/01/15/in-science-size-matters-in-climate-science/

[ray54]

😵   What is the matter with all of you??? You sound like COMMON SENSE has over come you all. 😉 Supreme being will not like that. All of you back into the salve quarters. STOP THINKING and quietly starve to death.  

 

Back to hiding under my rock. Hope my rock is not POOFED. 

[Reichow7120]

16 hours ago, 766 Man said:

  Which is less efficient in terms of capital and labor among other factors when figured on a per acre basis.  Where I am a lot of discussion is happening on fertilizer use under the guise of waterway and bodies of water management.  I don't think that is a problem like it was 50 years ago when every non hay or pasture acre was plowed.  If you have for example 100 acres of tillable land but are only allowed 4,000 lbs of actual N for your farm that means you could plant 20 acres of corn with the target of 200 bushels of corn per acre based on one bushel of corn requiring 1 lb of actual N.  So what do you do about the other 80 acres.  Wheat demand has been better as of late but can go to great surpluses within a season eliminating its viability as a for profit crop.  It also requires N so that takes away from corn.  Barley and oats have very minimal market demand at least here.  Hay used to be a money maker but even demand for that has tapered off as users are producing more of their own needs.  I don't know of anybody who can make a go farming only planting 20 percent of their acres to corn (where the ground is productive enough to plant corn to start with).  As to soybeans immense pressure is happening in terms of using present generation chemicals such as Enlist.  Some of these chemicals are already banned in some counties.  Episodes are happening where such chemicals migrate to orchards, vineyards, and vegetables which creates animosity.  As said above this is mostly in the public debate stage at present but the talk is there to codify most of  the things I have mentioned.  

I sometimes wonder if this is a backdoor approach to forcing us to put solar panels on the land. Work 20% with your alloted fertilizer. The rest of the ground we put damn solar panels on it because you can't do anything else with them. 

Just a crackpot theroy i have. 

[766 Man]

47 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

I sometimes wonder if this is a backdoor approach to forcing us to put solar panels on the land. Work 20% with your alloted fertilizer. The rest of the ground we put damn solar panels on it because you can't do anything else with them. 

Just a crackpot theroy i have. 

  Anything is possible but I think the overwhelming desire with these people is to get rid of large scale commercial farming.  Can't count on solar or wind given the environment here.  Yesterday was calm and mostly overcast so those sources would not have been producing.   Like I said this is all talk but talk is happening.  At some point this talk will become code whether draconian fertilizer allotments is a part of that or not.  All the land around here leads within a few miles to a navigatible stream, river, or lake.  

[Reichow7120]

3 hours ago, 766 Man said:

  Anything is possible but I think the overwhelming desire with these people is to get rid of large scale commercial farming.  Can't count on solar or wind given the environment here.  Yesterday was calm and mostly overcast so those sources would not have been producing.   Like I said this is all talk but talk is happening.  At some point this talk will become code whether draconian fertilizer allotments is a part of that or not.  All the land around here leads within a few miles to a navigatible stream, river, or lake.  

Not advocating it at all. I think it's a waste of ground and it's never going to be reliable.

You are using logic. You say its not going to work. I believe you 120%. I live in Michigan. Weather pattern is similar to your neck of the woods. From November til mid to late March and sometimes early April i refer to this area as the arm pit of America. Its always cloudy, damp, dreary. Everything just looks like $-it during that time frame. Know what is going on around here north of where I live? Putting in a solar farm. Explain the logic there.  We just came off the 5th cloudiest December on record and this type of weather isn't uncommon around here during this time of the year 

In your area. Who is buying the ground. If its investment groups.. they aren't buying it for a nature preserve. No ROI on that.  So ask yourself. What are they buying it for? There is something there even if its the most retarded thing imaginable. Because government money makes it profitable to them. 

Back side of my farm I live on was a 75 acre chunk of ground that was sold at auction in December 2021. We looked at it but decided against it. From the 1970s thru the early 1990s, the local foundry dumped foundry sand on it. In places its probably 30 or 40 ft deep. We didnt want to buy it and end up with the liability of cleaning it up if the EPA got a cob up their @-- and demanded it cleaned up. ( in fact the family only sold what had foundry sand dumped on it. That made our spidey senses tingle there. ) Know who bought it? Big land investment group out of Boston. They sure didn't buy it for farming. Its not great land for that obviously. A few months ago got a flyer from Boston claiming they were looking at some of my ground for a solar opportunity. It got promptly filed in the trash.

[766 Man]

1 hour ago, Reichow7120 said:

Not advocating it at all. I think it's a waste of ground and it's never going to be reliable.

You are using logic. You say its not going to work. I believe you 120%. I live in Michigan. Weather pattern is similar to your neck of the woods. From November til mid to late March and sometimes early April i refer to this area as the arm pit of America. Its always cloudy, damp, dreary. Everything just looks like $-it during that time frame. Know what is going on around here north of where I live? Putting in a solar farm. Explain the logic there.  We just came off the 5th cloudiest December on record and this type of weather isn't uncommon around here during this time of the year 

In your area. Who is buying the ground. If its investment groups.. they aren't buying it for a nature preserve. No ROI on that.  So ask yourself. What are they buying it for? There is something there even if its the most retarded thing imaginable. Because government money makes it profitable to them. 

Back side of my farm I live on was a 75 acre chunk of ground that was sold at auction in December 2021. We looked at it but decided against it. From the 1970s thru the early 1990s, the local foundry dumped foundry sand on it. In places its probably 30 or 40 ft deep. We didnt want to buy it and end up with the liability of cleaning it up if the EPA got a cob up their @-- and demanded it cleaned up. ( in fact the family only sold what had foundry sand dumped on it. That made our spidey senses tingle there. ) Know who bought it? Big land investment group out of Boston. They sure didn't buy it for farming. Its not great land for that obviously. A few months ago got a flyer from Boston claiming they were looking at some of my ground for a solar opportunity. It got promptly filed in the trash.

  Interesting that Boston investors are in play.  About 10 miles away there is a 50 acre farm that a number of people approached to rent for agriculture.  The owners would never hear of it and often gave a lecture as to the evils of commercial farming including applying commercially sourced fertilizer.  The white board fence went up for a little while to run a few horses but did not need the whole tract to do that.  Fast forward to last year and the solar panels were going up.  The whole place is covered now.  So what changed in the minds of the owners who are elderly now other than big money and that they will be dead and gone when the time comes to clean up the mess.  As to general buyers the Amish and Mennonites are the big buyers by far around here.  They are undergoing a population boom so there are plenty of young workers to pay the big prices they offer on land.  Used to be 3-4 per generation was typical but in the last 20 years or so the wife is expected to put out kids from when she hits 17 until she reaches menopause.  The operation plan of these groups dove tails into what the environmentalists desire in terms of chemical and fertilizer use.  Control over what farmers use is nothing new here and has been under discussion since the 1990's.  The only difference is now these same people who were at their lake homes on the weekends 30 years ago are now retired and there most of the year.  They have nothing better to do than impose their vision on what they feel is the peasant class in farmers.  Can farmers do better in terms of stewardship?  Yes, but like anything else I think the pendulum is going to swing far in the other direction.

[Gearclash]

“Farming is something we do with land until we can find a better thing to do with it"

-- politicians in Pennsylvania and no doubt elsewhere.

[nepoweshiekfarmalls]

I cannot believe that the natural gas producers are going to let the government put them out of business.  What are we overlooking here?

[iowaboy1965]

18 minutes ago, nepoweshiekfarmalls said:

I cannot believe that the natural gas producers are going to let the government put them out of business.  What are we overlooking here?

China and everywhere out side of the eu will still buy it?

[sandhiller]

26 minutes ago, nepoweshiekfarmalls said:

I cannot believe that the natural gas producers are going to let the government put them out of business.  What are we overlooking here?

 

7 minutes ago, iowaboy1965 said:

China and everywhere out side of the eu will still buy it?

And they don't care who buys it. 

If they can make more $ oversees, it goes oversees, don't give a rats azz about us. 

Welcome to the World economy. 

[Binderoid]

Possibly this whole gas stove thing is a decoy to divert attention elsewhere? Government doesn’t have to seize anyone’s stove, new or used... just shut off the main. Same thing with promoting electric cars in Cali... just reduce gasoline output by X every year, until it becomes so inconvenient to have a gas vehicle they just throw up their hands and go electric.

[766 Man]

1 hour ago, iowaboy1965 said:

China and everywhere out side of the eu will still buy it?

  Exports aside the producer block of natural gas and propane is not large enough to put a dent in the effort of the environmentalists.  The same thing can be said of agriculture.  Most people are far removed from how things such as food and heat reach their home.  All they hear are the negatives in terms of energy and food production so they favor things that curtail those efforts "because food and energy can be produced elsewhere."  It has been said for decades by many (not me of course) that New York does not need farmers because milk, meat, and grain  can come from elsewhere.  

[12_Guy]

5 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

 does not need farmers because milk, meat, and grain  can come from elsewhere.  

God help us all when we run out of elsewhere. 

 

On 1/15/2023 at 1:01 PM, Reichow7120 said:

How are they fueling these grain dryers then. No natural Gas means you are down to propane and im assuming that propane is just as evil as NG. Never seen a electric grain dryer ( can you imagine the electricity one of those would suck at a farm level much less a commericial Elevator) 

There was a dubious flirtation with resistance electric heat for grain dryers in the '70s. I did some repair work on a couple dryers. I know of one still in existence but it is not used anymore. They required a tremendous amount of electric. For example, one smallish bin had a 400 amp disconnect for the dryer elements alone. Unfortunately that would produce less than 300,000 btu. Imagine how much power a large modern dryer would require. 

[Reichow7120]

2 hours ago, 766 Man said:

As to general buyers the Amish and Mennonites are the big buyers by far around here. 

Interesting. Amish here aren't that big if players here in the land buying. 

There is a big settlement to the South of us. But they really haven't expanded their holdings much. A family moves out looking for new blood. Another moves into their old place. And they are not huge spreads. What farming they do is enough to get them by. If they want to do extra. They end up buying hay and grain from the English as they call us to have larger amounts of livestock. We have sold a number of them hay over the years. They make their money in sawmills, cabanet shops, and being day laborers like you see with the Mexicans.

I watch some of the stuff that the Amish in other places can get away with and realize the ones in our area are the hard core ones. It doesn’t look much more than farming at the turn of the 20th century there except they can use a small square baler pulled by houses and a gas engine. And they definitely know their way around small gas engines. They put those on everything. 

[766 Man]

8 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

Interesting. Amish here aren't that big if players here in the land buying. 

There is a big settlement to the South of us. But they really haven't expanded their holdings much. A family moves out looking for new blood. Another moves into their old place. And they are not huge spreads. What farming they do is enough to get them by. If they want to do extra. They end up buying hay and grain from the English as they call us to have larger amounts of livestock. We have sold a number of them hay over the years. They make their money in sawmills, cabanet shops, and being day laborers like you see with the Mexicans.

I watch some of the stuff that the Amish in other places can get away with and realize the ones in our area are the hard core ones. It doesn’t look much more than farming at the turn of the 20th century there except they can use a small square baler pulled by houses and a gas engine. And they definitely know their way around small gas engines. They put those on everything. 

  The Amish are not players on the better ground here and the established English community does not like outsiders.  Then there is the proximity to big cities such as Rochester and Buffalo with them only willing to so close and no further.  

  Most Amish farms here are 50-70 acres with maybe 10 acres of row crops.  As more have come in there is more hay acreage so shortages are easier to make up for in the community.  They also are in most aspects of the lumber industry from cutting to finishing.  They also have machine shops and other allied businesses.  

  Quite a few hire round balers to put up their hay.  Those with cattle and silos use ensilage cutters of which they power with some type of diesel engine including Detroits.  Well pumps are Honda powered.  Tech level as far as what they actually own versus hire would be around 1930 sans any tractors.  Given the immense need for non-farm income the wife with her child bearing capabilities is a far more important asset than a horse.  

[Paystar5000]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:08 PM, Jacka said:

The worst thing is that some people will somehow justify this as sane and must do mandate. I guess time to install a wood fired  cook stove.

But there is this itsy bitsy,teeny weeny runaway nuclear reactor in Japan that is spewing hundreds of thousands gallons of contaminated cooling water in the Pacific Ocean every month and has been for 12 years. They won't even have a plan to START to clean it up untill 2045 but gas stoves are high on the list of health dangers. You just can't make this stuff up.

This and no polluted air from China makes its way into our atmosphere either. LOL

[ihrondiesel]

8 hours ago, Binderoid said:

Possibly this whole gas stove thing is a decoy to divert attention FROM elsewhere? 

Like the Big Man’s classified document stash?

[Steve C.]

Rusty says: