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CAT vs Deere


vtfireman85
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I used a little backhoe on a BX series Kubota yesterday, the P.O., now deceased, had been a cat man. Might as well try to make coffee with my left foot. 
to me Deere makes sense, i control one end of the thing with my left hand and the other with my right. God Bless pattern changers! 

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You won’t go wrong with either machine , I would tell you to go with the place that has the best service and close to you  👍

Danny

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I understand that if you practice. You can make pretty good coffee with your left foot.

That said I have a Davis D100 backhoe on a bobcat. The swing and boom levers are reversed. I'm a little slower but a lot easier than bending up new pipes to fix it. Much faster than a shovel.

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The funny thing is, if you can master both you will be able to jump in either machine and run it flawlessly. I run into the same thing logging equipment. A truck loader and a forwarder are totally backwards, but I can jump in either machine and it seems like once I hit the seat I know what each function does without thinking. 

I'm the same way with skid steers. Case, new holland, IOS  (cat), I can jump in either machine at any time and operate it fine.

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Two years ago we bought a Vermeer trencher with a backhoe with Deere style controls, last winter we bought an excavator and I learned the cat style controls thinking it couldn't be too hard to master both.  I got back on the Vermeer this summer to make a tile repair and go so frustrated I hauled the excavator to the field and used it.  I have since replumbed the hydraulics on the Vermeer to be excavator style controls.

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7 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

I used a little backhoe on a BX series Kubota yesterday, the P.O., now deceased, had been a cat man. Might as well try to make coffee with my left foot. 
to me Deere makes sense, i control one end of the thing with my left hand and the other with my right. God Bless pattern changers! 

...I get that   Seth...but with respect to all of you operators ...the Hitachi  pattern for Excavator function is without doubt  the best...but to try  and teach the great unwashed  to operate machines of this type.....trying to teach simple souls that don't know their arse from their elbow ...the ISO  pattern is the first step......

Mike

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3 hours ago, mike newman said:

...I get that   Seth...but with respect to all of you operators ...the Hitachi  pattern for Excavator function is without doubt  the best...but to try  and teach the great unwashed  to operate machines of this type.....trying to teach simple souls that don't know their arse from their elbow ...the ISO  pattern is the first step......

Mike

How is hitachi different? 

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24 minutes ago, jeeper61 said:

Some machines have a selector switch to change the pattern

I am in the stone age still got a four lever backhoe 

https://www.messicks.com/school/excavator-operation-for-beginners-isosae-cont

 

Some do, but tiny kubotas do not. They assume you use the correct pattern already. 

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I do OK , just OK with case 3 lever. And I struggle with 4 lever backhoe but i can get a rhythm . When the controls are the same, but the functions different is where i struggle most. 

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4 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

How is hitachi different? 

.Ok   Seth  :)

,,,the Hitach' pattern '' differs only with the left hand........straight forward  for swing right...straight back for swing left.......in other words the two functions with the left hand are opposite to the  ISO  pattern.....and before you roll your eyes   (:rolleyes: )....this is a huge and significant  improvement  on the ISO pattern.....It won't matter much for the week end warrior..but  if you cutting a cut batter of several feet high in  rock situation...or doing constant  roading on slope gradients of 20 degrees or more......stripping vegetation  for the fill  batter etc .....it is so much easier on the body.......shovelling logs and or raking slash on similar  gradients , likewise......

I have just about (couple months short ) clocked up 62 years of working...Never mind the stupidity of that fact....but remember the countless hours spent in 20 ton excavators, that I have done over the years.....

Hitachi is the biggest Excavator seller in NZ....and most companies that I know personally. have their operators on "Hitachi Mode "

Like I said....blokes using an excavator once in a while...no big deal...but   constant daily hours in a big machine, the Hitachi pattern is far easier on the operator

The worst, most bizzare pattern..is old Mitsubishi.....the engineer who designed that must have been  pissed out of his tree, to come up with that convuluted idea

I have a long standing friendship with a Caterpillar trained mechanic...from my Cat welding days...This bloke is one of those folk who reads a Caterpillsar manual , before nodding off to sleep....He rubbish's the Hitachi  pattern....because although mechanics think they can operate  machines...they can't.. !!!  Sure..they can shift them around the yard...into the W/S...but it ends there...  so we have good natured ''banter'' about the vagaries of different patterns....then I tell him about another major NZ Contractor ..who only runs Caterpillar Excavators...but has them changed to Hitachi  shift pattern...we go back to drinking black tea at that point.....;)

Mike

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41 minutes ago, TractormanMike.mb said:

You haven't ran an excavator until you ran one with foot pedals, pretty hard to jump steer one of those.

Drott- wheeled version. I’m told they have a lever for every appendage on your body…😂

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It takes some getting used to but running both patterns becomes natural. I have a mid sized Daewoo and my buddy had large Komatsu. Each had different patterns and we used both on the same job allot. I got to wear I could go from one to the other without breaking stuff and run them efficiently.The case backhoe I run at work now is the opposite of my excavator. Enough hours on each and it becomes second nature.

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36 minutes ago, mike newman said:

.Ok   Seth  :)

,,,the Hitach' pattern '' differs only with the left hand........straight forward  for swing right...straight back for swing left.......in other words the two functions with the left hand are opposite to the  ISO  pattern.....and before you roll your eyes   (:rolleyes: )....this is a huge and significant  improvement  on the ISO pattern.....It won't matter much for the week end warrior..but  if you cutting a cut batter of several feet high in  rock situation...or doing constant  roading on slope gradients of 20 degrees or more......stripping vegetation  for the fill  batter etc .....it is so much easier on the body.......shovelling logs and or raking slash on similar  gradients , likewise......

I have just about (couple months short ) clocked up 62 years of working...Never mind the stupidity of that fact....but remember the countless hours spent in 20 ton excavators, that I have done over the years.....

Hitachi is the biggest Excavator seller in NZ....and most companies that I know personally. have their operators on "Hitachi Mode "

Like I said....blokes using an excavator once in a while...no big deal...but   constant daily hours in a big machine, the Hitachi pattern is far easier on the operator

The worst, most bizzare pattern..is old Mitsubishi.....the engineer who designed that must have pissed out of his tree, to come up with that convuluted idea

I have a long standing friendship with a Caterpillar trained mechanic...from my Cat welding days...This bloke is one of those folk who reads a Caterpillsar manual , before nodding off to sleep....He rubbish's the Hitachi  pattern....because although mechanics think they can operate  machines...they can't.. !!!  Sure..they can shift them around the yard...into the W/S...but it ends there...  so we have good natured ''banter'' about the vagaries of different patterns....then I tell him about another major NZ Contractor ..who only runs Caterpillar Excavators...but has them changed to Hitachi  shift pattern...we go back to drinking black tea at that point.....;)

Mike

I had never heard of the Hitachi pattern. It kinda makes sense after you explain it. I may have to swap my excavator to it to mess with people and myself.

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I have a Hitachi ZX-160 and it has the pattern changer,  iso or sae, no special Hitachi pattern on it.

DWF

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The first time I ran a skid steer with the iso pattern I was trying to pick up logs with pallet forks of all things, you would have thought I never ran a skid steer ever because I was used to case controls. If I was moving I took my hand off of the loader function stick and that help a lot, vice versa for when I was doing bucket work. 

Just thinking, I haven't ran a case pattern in almost four years so I would be curious to get in one to see how I would do.

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1 hour ago, Snox38 said:

I had never heard of the Hitachi pattern. It kinda makes sense after you explain it. I may have to swap my excavator to it to mess with people and myself.

..it makes total sense once you try it.....and the older  you get with  buggered shoulders...the Hitachi set up is a lot easier on the old body....

56 minutes ago, DWF said:

I have a Hitachi ZX-160 and it has the pattern changer,  iso or sae, no special Hitachi pattern on it.

DWF

.....DWF...because all these young fella's that come along and want $40 /hr    to ''drive a digger''..instead of starting at the bottom of the contracting heap...i.e water cart   or compaction roller.....are all full  of piss and wind, so eventually if you get one that will stick around and shows a bit of promise...he will inevitably start on the ''tea spoon '' excavator that most sites will have......thus he / she  will get eventually  proficient   (??!!) with an ISO system....simply because half of the kids these days are so fricken'  dumb..they barely know the right hand from the left..thus the ISO  is more readily understood....Swing left for left etc I had the dubious priviledge of trying to teach West Indian ''locals'' the gentle art of truck driving  (class 8 )   and excavator operating....Frustration on steroids...possibly why I have mild heartt issues and a stomach ulcer at the present time ....:)

...so it is easier , I guess  to send the new Hitachi out into the field with the standard  ISO   pattern ...that way any halfarsed    opertators can at least   do some sort of wet mark on the ground....where  as if the machine was set up for Hitachi  pattern....once again the ''training '' would start ...again

In the West Indies, it took me four or five hours to learn the ISO   set up !!!....I had to get up to speed on that set up before the challenge of teaching the locals could proceed 

...and incidently...I reckon I hold a world record  in the 60 yrs plus class, for running between the door of a 30 ton Komatsu...to outside the swing radius.....those men are like little kids as they go from a bloody shovel and wheel barrow...to an excavator......despite days of ''trying'' to keep them calm when they get into a 'live' situation....

Mike

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Everybody calls ISO Cat control pattern, but as far as I know, that pattern predated Cat excavators.

I can understand why JD kept the BHL pattern as they sold more backhoe loaders than excavators and wanted control familiarity. 

As mentioned, pattern change valves are common. Minus the pattern valve, Cat has a pilot line bulkhead on all but the smallest excavators as well. You simply swap connections on 2 sets of lines under the cab.

As to operation, while I pride myself in being able to run near anything.... one I'll never get used to is BHL controls on an excavator. That said, I don't have a problem running the BHL with the reversed boom and stick... weird.

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5 hours ago, Cattech said:

Everybody calls ISO Cat control pattern, but as far as I know, that pattern predated Cat excavators.

I can understand why JD kept the BHL pattern as they sold more backhoe loaders than excavators and wanted control familiarity. 

As mentioned, pattern change valves are common. Minus the pattern valve, Cat has a pilot line bulkhead on all but the smallest excavators as well. You simply swap connections on 2 sets of lines under the cab.

As to operation, while I pride myself in being able to run near anything.... one I'll never get used to is BHL controls on an excavator. That said, I don't have a problem running the BHL with the reversed boom and stick... weird.

Seems I might have thrown  down the gauntlet  there  Cattech...re operating ....:D

..Yeah ..the ISO was around before Cat Excavators  hit their stride.....  and Kobelco  were very 'civilised ' with their Excavator presentation   by offering a 'multiple operating    shift pattern ''  arrangement , neatly built behind one of the RHS side panels...

Mike

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