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California Is Just Now Realizing That When The Sun Goes Down, It Gets Dark Because Of:


Art From Coleman
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Ok so I have a legit example I am struggling to understand.

renovating turkey buildings currently and electrician (very close friend) mentions putting solar panels in.

he says (opinion) that turkey farm would be ideal for solar due to large, constant load during the warm, summer months.

that’s all great and grand. What’s the price tag? I ask.

$3/watt.

after a few minutes of me catching my breath and the world to slow down in the fuzzy spinning of my mind loosing consciousness…. He says “that’s before the 30% credit from Uncle (insert name that can be used to hatefully describe coffee).

now, this farms peak load is, according to adding all these electric motor HP up, 55kw. K stands for kilo, which the rest of the world understands to be 1000.

55,000x 3 is 165,000 upfront, right in yo’ face expense.

local utility rates? 
.12/ kw

now can someone please (I mean it) explain to me just how in the heck that pencils out? I’ll still need generator in case of something happening, PETA would have a field day with 30,000 turkeys left for dead in the sweltering heat. And the bank sure isn’t gunna left me cut corners for risk of exposing themselves to a farm that doesn’t flow….

I’ll still need to be tied into the grid due to the economic of it all, 

so what am I really gaining?

what is anyone really gaining?

maybe a mandate would be to GM to get fuel mileage up from 10 MPG that was achieved in 1977 on the K20 trucks all the way to today. 
that’s a mandate that’s do some good.

they aren’t even shifting gears on this energy crap.

they tied a brick to the pedal and jumped out the window.

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9 minutes ago, zleinenbach said:

 

now can someone please (I mean it) explain to me just how in the heck that pencils out? I’ll still need generator in case of something happening, PETA would have a field day with 30,000 turkeys left for dead in the sweltering heat. And the bank sure isn’t gunna left me cut corners for risk of exposing themselves to a farm that doesn’t flow….

I’ll still need to be tied into the grid due to the economic of it all, 

so what am I really gaining?

what is anyone really gaining?

maybe a mandate would be to GM to get fuel mileage up from 10 MPG that was achieved in 1977 on the K20 trucks all the way to today. 
that’s a mandate that’s do some good.

they aren’t even shifting gears on this energy crap.

they tied a brick to the pedal and jumped out the window.

You wouldn’t need enough solar to run your entire electrical load. For example, you could install 10,000 watt solar panel (hypothetical numbers because it won’t produce the rated wattage) and offset your electrical load by the amount of power from solar.  If you aren’t using as much power as you’re generating you will be selling that power back into the grid.  Different utilities pay differently for the power going back into the grid, some pay wholesale and some pay retail.  That is net metering.  Having a stand alone solar installation with batteries and being off grid is much more expensive.  
To pencil it out you’d need to sit down with a solar expert that is familiar with your utilities, conditions at your location for solar, average kWh consumption, etc. 

If you are selling power back into the grid at full retail the payoff would be much quicker than if they’re paying you wholesale cost  

Here’s a link to Wikipedia (I know, I know) that gives a rundown of net metering  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_metering

 

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So I get the partial load deal.

two of the larger power plants in country are close to home, with plans on the books for complete shut down of production.

where will the other partial amount come from if it’s not coming on the lines from the plants?

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1 minute ago, zleinenbach said:

So I get the partial load deal.

two of the larger power plants in country are close to home, with plans on the books for complete shut down of production.

where will the other partial amount come from if it’s not coming on the lines from the plants?

You’ll still have electricity available right? So it will come from a power generation plant somewhere else?

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2 hours ago, jeeper61 said:

You seem well versed on renewable energy and EVs why don't you practice what you preach?

I see many online discussions and have conversations with people about EVs and renewables. There are talking points and opinions on both sides. I like to read and do research on topics I find interesting, I’m an analytical thinker and like to break things down especially with math. So I started reading and looking for answers to questions I had and looking to see which talking points were more or less accurate. A battery is just a different fuel type, like gas or diesel or LP or CNG. It has energy that’s used to move a vehicle. That’s just a physics equation to calculate how much energy is needed. 
As far as renewable energy I think it’s interesting that you can generate your own electricity. I can’t pump my own oil and refine it. But I could have a windmill and solar panels. Wind mills are really old tech. 100 years ago windmills were used in rural areas to pump water and make electricity. Those old timers are symbolic of a family farm. The new ones are just larger and more high tech. I lived in an area where one of the first large wind farms was erected. There was quite a bit of controversy at the time. Since then it has been expanded and stretches for miles. 
As for EV owners, I don’t know any that think they’re saving the planet. They like them because they’re cheaper to operate than gas and most of them are fast as heck. I remember in the early 2000s the same comments were made about hybrid drivers. Today, all kinds of vehicles are hybrids and no one even notices. 
Anyways, I just find the topics interesting and enjoy learning some new things by researching, reading and talking to people who have some real life experience with EVs or renewables. 

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5 minutes ago, MTB98 said:Today, all kinds of vehicles are hybrids and no one even notices. 
Anyways, I just find the topics interesting and enjoy learning some new things by researching, reading and talking to people who have some real life experience with EVs or renewables. 

If you take a random SUV brand/model  that is offered in both gasoline version and a hybrid version the initial cost of the hybrid will be higher. To your comment that “no one even notices”, I would respectfully disagree. Maybe to some that cost difference will pencil out over 2,3,4, or 5 years. The parts of those are more expensive to replace also (when dealing specifically with the hybrid technology). With an EV, you need ability to charge. That is normally upgrading electric capabilities in your home and possibly upgrading your entire service. Have you done the math on those details also in your comparisons?  I notice hybrids personally when I see them. I have no issue with people who want to utilize that but I don’t believe it to be cheaper when all is said and done. Lower cost of fueling but a higher initial cost and cost of ownership turn me off to the idea. 

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We live in our RV from time to time ...on a beach , in the woods usually remote anyway. We don't use a generator, we use very little electricity when living remote. A water pump and some led lighting after dark. One 12 v deep cycle and a 30w solar panel to tend it.  There is also LPG bottled for refrigeration and cooking. Point: We all of a sudden are using a drop of what we use at home.....and never miss a beat in fact we are feeling perhaps happier.

Most important: In general our parents built our lives, we are building the life for our Grandchildren.

I am not a tree hugger, I love Machines, more than most people, no BS from good Machinery but I am not to good to use a hack saw and a file.

We do not know what will power the future, we sure as heck could be a little more frugal while we figure it out.

I have a hard time not seeing the sun as the biggest engine we have access to. How we use it needs some work and I want to help with an open mind.

I have always thought of the family farm as the core strength of America, the stewards of the land. I am a little taken back by what I read here.

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23 minutes ago, Sledgehammer said:

If you take a random SUV brand/model  that is offered in both gasoline version and a hybrid version the initial cost of the hybrid will be higher. To your comment that “no one even notices”, I would respectfully disagree. Maybe to some that cost difference will pencil out over 2,3,4, or 5 years. The parts of those are more expensive to replace also (when dealing specifically with the hybrid technology). With an EV, you need ability to charge. That is normally upgrading electric capabilities in your home and possibly upgrading your entire service. Have you done the math on those details also in your comparisons?  I notice hybrids personally when I see them. I have no issue with people who want to utilize that but I don’t believe it to be cheaper when all is said and done. Lower cost of fueling but a higher initial cost and cost of ownership turn me off to the idea. 

There are a couple different types of hybrids. There’s the plug in hybrids which are the newer versions and the older hybrids like the Prius. A Honda Accord base model starts at $26,xxx (30/38 mpg rating) and the Hybrid Accord starts at $27,xxx (48/47 mpg rating). Not much difference there quickly recovered by the fuel savings. The only difference in appearance would be the small “Hybrid” badge stuck on the trunk lid. Many cars, trucks and SUVs are available as hybrids without much fanfare about them. 
The Prius came out 25 years ago. The hybrid technology isn’t new and has been well tested over time. 
In regards to charging an EV you can slow charge with a 120 volt outlet which isn’t really reasonable for day to day use because of slow charge rates. A normal 240 volt outlet that you’d use for a welder or clothes dryer will work just fine. Probably no need to upgrade electrical service, even if you only have 100 amp service. You’d probably charge the vehicle overnight when your home electrical load is at its lowest. 

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3 hours ago, MTB98 said:

They like them because they’re cheaper to operate than gas

The main reason we have an EV

They are much better for those not educated on ICE car upkeep 

I have solar panels at one of my places which is off grid and they on the other hand are expanse to maintain.

The battery bank is the expensive part   

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27 minutes ago, jeeper61 said:

The main reason we have an EV

They are much better for those not educated on ICE car upkeep 

I have solar panels at one of my places which is off grid and they on the other hand are expanse to maintain.

The battery bank is the expensive part   

One thing I see about hybrids as a big negative is you still have the maintenance of an ICE asking with the complexity of integrating that with the battery power. 
 

Isn’t grid-tied solar pretty much maintenance free? 

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1 hour ago, MTB98 said:

Isn’t grid-tied solar pretty much maintenance free? 

If you lease it yes

If you own it there is a chance you could have to replace an inverter 

When a battery back up is added then there are things to consider before selecting battery type

The lowest temperature most Lithium battery back ups can stand is 0F so they are not suitable for off grid applications

They must be kept in a heated space 

Off grid systems typically use lead acid they can with stand -50F

As with any battery they are considered consumables and have a life time of 7-10 years  

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 Never know what completely to believe. Different sources tell us the pollution to create some of these EV's will never outweigh their savings. What I can honestly say again is the plant I used to work at had roughly 50 people with $100,000 a year jobs plus the mine and railway that produced the coal. This cost the consumer roughly .08 cents a kw. with prices across the board at $15 to $40 a megawatt.  I think now we pay 12 cents a kw. With prices all summer $60 to $120 a megawatt. We will pay more as soon as the public service raises the price again. Supposedly we had production jobs building windmills in Grand Forks ND and Aberdeen SD.  Those places closed down because of China. Only a fraction of the people required to babysit the windmills, Yet prices are double or even triple now. I don't have all the answers, but I do realize we are being screwed over. 

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1 hour ago, Art From Coleman said:

I would question a few of their facts about EVs. First would be the brake pad wear. EVs use regenerative braking that practically eliminates brake pad wear. Second would be the increased maintenance costs. There are no motor oil changes and no need for engine air filters. The complexity of an ICE drivetrain is much greater than the EV drivetrain. 
It also mentions there isn’t much internet in them. F150 Lightnings, Rivians and Teslas are all sold out well into 2023 and even 2024 in some cases. 
Lastly, it mentions needing a garage to have an EV charger. That is false, a charger can be installed outdoors. The Tesla superchargers are outdoors, some do have a roof covering similar to a gas station canopy but many do not. 

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5 hours ago, just Dave said:

have always thought of the family farm as the core strength of America, the stewards of the land. I am a little taken back by what I read here

Interesting that you bring up the family farm in this subject 

I live in Southern Michigan where for some odd reason they have decided they want to run a number of solar projects. The pictures below are results of this work. Some of these pictures were of fields being farmed until a year ago. Some others are where woods were cleared. Those fields have had so much done to them that you'll never be able to farm them again. So explain to me how turning your farm or property into this is helping the enviroment. You aren't growing crops or much more than grass underneath it that has to be mowed

One thing that has been glossed over in this Is the length of time between the 2 between chargups and fillups. I timmed myself a year ago putting 16 gallons of gas in my car to get roughly just shy of 400 mile range. Took me 5 minutes to do that which included doing the credit card work at the pump. Can you recharge a almost dead battery to full range in that short of time? Someone is going to argue that you recharge it when not in use. What about those of us that can travel that type of distance in one shot? How long do you have to sit before you get back on the road? I bet is more than 5 or 10 minutes. What do you do with that lost time while you're sitting there waiting for a battery charge?

One more thing is we are getting rid of our more dependable sources in favor of less Reliable means while adding more usage to it. Sounds a little screwey to me. 

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Taking farmland out of service for solar fields doesn’t make any sense. Near the IND Airport they have a large solar field. That location makes sense because it’s between interstate highways and the airport. There are also some solar fields in the areas inside the interstate exchanges. Another place where nothing else can really be done there. 
 

As far as charging goes, the Tesla site has a “plan my trip” feature that allows you to select your destination and maps out the route with charging locations and times if needed.  Interesting to plug in some long distance trips and see what it comes up with. 
https://www.tesla.com/trips

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1 hour ago, MTB98 said:

Lastly, it mentions needing a garage to have an EV charger. That is false, a charger can be installed outdoors. The Tesla superchargers are outdoors, some do have a roof covering similar to a gas station canopy but many do not.

Don't be silly. The point wasn't about it Being in or out of a garage. The point was you didn't need a charger installed in or outside with a traditional vehicle. Altho there is some rumbling about loss of efficiency or battery life if temps are too cold.

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19 minutes ago, iowaboy1965 said:

Don't be silly. The point wasn't about it Being in or out of a garage. The point was you didn't need a charger installed in or outside with a traditional vehicle. Altho there is some rumbling about loss of efficiency or battery life if temps are too cold.

From the article

And it takes additional costs to make electric cars convenient—such as installing a charger in your garage. Those who can’t afford it, or who don’t have a garage, will have to spend a lot more time at commercial chargers than it takes to fill up a car with gasoline.”

Not having a home charger and needing to rely on charging stations makes the EV very inconvenient and much more expensive to own. If you can’t afford to install a charger then you can’t afford to charge it at charging stations either. I thought EVs we luxury vehicles only for “rich” people with household incomes >$100,000?

Here’s a link to the fancy Tesla chargers

https://www.tesla.com/home-charging


Batteries do lose range in cold temperatures but they will still charge. 

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2 hours ago, MTB98 said:

From the article

And it takes additional costs to make electric cars convenient—such as installing a charger in your garage. Those who can’t afford it, or who don’t have a garage, will have to spend a lot more time at commercial chargers than it takes to fill up a car with gasoline.”

Not having a home charger and needing to rely on charging stations makes the EV very inconvenient and much more expensive to own. If you can’t afford to install a charger then you can’t afford to charge it at charging stations either. I thought EVs we luxury vehicles only for “rich” people with household incomes >$100,000?

Here’s a link to the fancy Tesla chargers

https://www.tesla.com/home-charging


Batteries do lose range in cold temperatures but they will still charge. 

Again don't be silly. By not having a garage they are referring to living in an apartment or other housing you don't have freedom to install a charger. Has nothing to do with being inside or out. Again the main point was you wouldn't have to spend the money to install a charger if you didn't have an ev.

I read the article as well.

And the cold weather thing I was referring to, I thought possibly you had to have them at a certain temp to charge and not affect battery life. There was something mentioned about heaters to maintain batt temp in cold weather and or to preheat batteries before you drove it. Or as a Tesla owner told me and a buddy this weekend "it's just like warming up your regular car". I don't know I haven't read up on the fine details as much as some.

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9 hours ago, just Dave said:

I have always thought of the family farm as the core strength of America, the stewards of the land. I am a little taken back by what I read here.

I don’t want to speak for others and I really don’t want to make this political, so I will do my best to offer my own personal opinion. Whenever something is being proposed or more importantly attempting to be mandated, I want to know who the biggest supporters are of whatever is being proposed. The very people who are attempting to show us the virtues of banning the ICE want to destroy the family farm. Mandating dust collection systems on combines. Taxing you based on how much your cows fart. Banning feedlots and hog barns. Forcing your heirs to sell your farm to pay death taxes. Demanding you pay crippling property taxes. Not allowing you to improve your farm with drainage projects. Banning GMO seeds. Regulating our semi trucks off the road. These are just a few of the things that these same people have proposed and attempted to impose on us. You will have to forgive my skepticism. I don’t mean to lump Joe Citizen in there, but I fear the power those in charge will have. It was not that long ago that the load that the ICE bears on our farm was placed on flesh and bone. I don’t want to go back. It just seems like another slippery slope. They start with cars, when they get that, they move on to the next target. I have never even heard the replacement for a 500hp Diesel engine that runs 16 hours a day and I think they have it in their crosshairs. JMO

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5 hours ago, MTB98 said:

Second would be the increased maintenance costs. There are no motor oil changes and no need for engine air filters. The complexity of an ICE drivetrain is much greater than the EV drivetrain. 

Go back and re read the article.  It says nothing about more maintenance cost. What it does say is total cost over the lifetime of the vehicle is 9% more and that's giving the ev a very generous assumption that they get driven as much as an ice. According to the article that is not usually the case.

I like you assumed they were referring to maintenence costs but on rereading it was total cost over the life of vehicle. It would be interesting to know what those costs are.

As for the brakes being a pollutant, that was one of 3 things mentioned as particulate pollution. The other 2 being added tire and road wear from the heavier weight of ev batteries. 

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9 minutes ago, iowaboy1965 said:

Go back and re read the article.  It says nothing about more maintenance cost. What it does say is total cost over the lifetime of the vehicle is 9% more and that's giving the ev a very generous assumption that they get driven as much as an ice. According to the article that is not usually the case.

I like you assumed they were referring to maintenence costs but on rereading it was total cost over the life of vehicle. It would be interesting to know what those costs are.

As for the brakes being a pollutant, that was one of 3 things mentioned as particulate pollution. The other 2 being added tire and road wear from the heavier weight of ev batteries. 

Ok, first sentence of the article says “The Wall Street Journal reports that despite the government and car companies both desperately pushing electric vehicles (EVs) on the American population, most Americans aren’t particularly interested in electric cars. The reasons, according to the Journal, range from the “trivial” environmental benefits of EVs to how expensive they are to purchase and maintain.” Maintaining is maintenance.

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Once again, the brakes on an EV last way, way longer than an ICE because of regenerative braking. You can drive without using the brakes, almost like a hydrostatic drive tractor. So brake dust particles being a bigger pollutant with EVs is false.  And honestly, I’ve never heard anyone discuss the hazards of more brake dust on the roads.

They are heavier than a  comparable sized vehicle, enough to make a difference on road conditions that are shared with large trucks? 
 

Long term ownership costs remain to be seen. The oldest Tesla Model S cars are only 10 years old now, less than the average age of cars in the US.  

 

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