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Way to get under a John Deere guy’s skin


1256pickett
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A good friend of mine was in from out of town this weekend. He is a store manager at a Deere dealer few states away. We went out for a couple drinks Saturday night. Sitting at the bar just shooting the bull and the almighty Deere came up. All I did was mention Kinze and his book. WOW! That opened up a can of worms! He got very defensive started spouting off how they work with all these smaller companies and help them develop and all the Deere rhetoric. He just went on and on. After a while the subject changed and we’re still good friends but I think I really struck a nerve!  It was kinda fun!😁

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I got a funny story that matches the topic title. Back in the ‘70s we used to go to a lot of tractor pulls, including the National Championships in August in Bowling Green, Ohio. We lived so close to Bowling Green that we could attend all three days of pulling, but just drive home each night to sleep at home. It was only about a 35 minute drive back then to get to BG. 

My one buddy that went with us to the pulls was a big JD fan. Of course, IH always kicked a_s and took names 99.9% of the time. One summer, I started taking a paper bag with me with eye holes cut out in it, and always whipped it out to offer to my buddy in the stands when things started really looking grim for the JDs. He was not amused and always refused to wear it. On the front, sides, and back side of the bag I had written JD Fan. Lol. 

At times, I garnered a few laughs, like if we would get up to walk around, or even for brief times while we were seated in the stands, I would take off my IH cap and put the bag on, just to give JD some publicity(???) with the writing on the the bag. It always got a great reaction. Fun times.  

 

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They work with smaller companies to steal their ideas! Then sue them. Pretty sad way of doing business if you ask me!

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  I'd be careful as to saying what was stolen from whom.  It always has been a very gray area for sure.  NH sued IH over the rotary combine concept and maintained IH stole the 35 rake and 720 forage harvester from NH products.  

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19 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  I'd be careful as to saying what was stolen from whom.  It always has been a very gray area for sure.  NH sued IH over the rotary combine concept and maintained IH stole the 35 rake and 720 forage harvester from NH products.  

I agree all of em have their faults. I just had to laugh at how quick he got defensive with just a mention of the name Kinze. Heck it’s been said before we on here brag about a company that basically went out of business 30+ years ago. 

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55 minutes ago, 1256pickett said:

I agree all of em have their faults. I just had to laugh at how quick he got defensive with just a mention of the name Kinze. Heck it’s been said before we on here brag about a company that basically went out of business 30+ years ago. 

  I wished I had saved the mid-1970's Farm Journal article covering the combine suit just to freshen my memory.  IH may have counter sued NH.  I want to say IH had intended to release their rotary combine by 1976 but was forced to go back to the drawing board to make some legal based adjustments to the combine design.  The NH TR70 was out by 1975 and I even for some strange reason had been given a TR70 toy combine as a kid.  The Axial Flow combines are in the 1978 IH Buyer's Guide as NEW for 1978.  My mother's cousin bought one that year and as I recall it they were hard to come by.  The cousin was pretty die hard IH and would have waited into the following crop year to get one.  

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I recently stumbled upon this when researching another stock. Looks like a sizeable R&D budget.

I have nothing to gain or loose, just remembered seeing it by accident:

  •  
  • Deere research and development expenses for the quarter ending April 30, 2022 were $0.453B, a 20.16% increase year-over-year.
  • Deere research and development expenses for the twelve months ending April 30, 2022 were $1.699B, a 9.19% increase year-over-year.
  • Deere annual research and development expenses for 2021 were $1.587B, a 3.47% decline from 2020.
  • Deere annual research and development expenses for 2020 were $1.644B, a 7.8% decline from 2019.
  • Deere annual research and development expenses for 2019 were $1.783B, a 7.54% increase from 2018.
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What did Deere copy from Kinze? I believe it was the other way around. Through a series of legal blunders and bad strategy Kinze was allowed to copy the Deere design. Due to the Kinze legal victory in having the Deere patents invalidated, White was also allowed to copy the Max Emerge row unit as well. 

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Getting under a John Deere guy’s skin is about like saying IHC couldn’t survive on its own and had to have Case come in and bale them out 🤪

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55 minutes ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

What did Deere copy from Kinze? I believe it was the other way around. Through a series of legal blunders and bad strategy Kinze was allowed to copy the Deere design. Due to the Kinze legal victory in having the Deere patents invalidated, White was also allowed to copy the Max Emerge row unit as well. 

  I don't remember in terms of each feature but some things originated with KInze.  Blunders happen in terms of filing for patents.  Patents only run for seven years and by the time White came along with it 5100 planter and IH with the 800 row units the JD patent most likely had expired.  I've always wanted to see a Yetter row unit for the 400 series planters as I think they were out ahead of the 800 and 5100 planter.  They must have made a variation that did not interfere with JD or Kinze.  Almost bought an 800 planter ahead of buying my JD 7000 in 1990.  The price was high for the condition.  I also think the JD closing system gets along better with rocks than the IH 800 system which is important if dealing with a lot of small rocks.  

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Wasn't the initial issue about John Deere's "failure to supply" the number of row units that Mr. Kinze required, as his demand, was greater than John Deere had manufactured for their own use.

 

Anyhow, NO ONE ever mentions the ideas that John Deere invented, and gave to the industry to use, with,, as I understand it, NO charge, or licensing fee:

The "Roll-Gard protective structure

The fully enclosed, rotating PTO shield

And we cannot forget when IH copied John Deere's corn head design.

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1 hour ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

What did Deere copy from Kinze? I believe it was the other way around. Through a series of legal blunders and bad strategy Kinze was allowed to copy the Deere design. Due to the Kinze legal victory in having the Deere patents invalidated, White was also allowed to copy the Max Emerge row unit as well. 

The way I understood it is JD was supplying Kinze with the Maximerge planter units to mount on his folding tool bar.  Then JD tried to cut him off so John took JD to court and invalidated all of JD patents.  If you read how Kinze did that in court, I don’t now how patent invalidation doesn’t happen daily between these companies.  Lots of these patents are old ideas.  Also, I do believe Kinze sued CIH sometime in the last 20 years.  And this spring I was told by some insiders that JD was considering suing Kinze over their high speed planters.

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Just now, 766 Man said:

  I don't remember in terms of each feature but some things originated with KInze.  Blunders happen in terms of filing for patents.  Patents only run for seven years and by the time White came along with it 5100 planter and IH with the 800 row units the JD patent most likely had expired.  I've always wanted to see a Yetter row unit for the 400 series planters as I think they were out ahead of the 800 and 5100 planter.  They must have made a variation that did not interfere with JD or Kinze.  Almost bought an 800 planter ahead of buying my JD 7000 in 1990.  The price was high for the condition.  I also think the JD closing system gets along better with rocks than the IH 800 system which is important if dealing with a lot of small rocks.  

I have read Jon Kinzenbaw’s book. The whole situation between Deere and Kinze originated with Kinze’s planter toolbar, for which he held a patent for the way it folded for transport. Deere wanted to license his frame design for Deere to build and sell themselves. Kinzenbaw thought the money they offered him was not nearly what his idea was worth, which I agree. Since he would not license his toolbar they decided not to sell him anymore units. Kinze did not build any of his own units until Deere refused to sell him any. By refusing to sell him units, they were attempting to strong arm him into giving up. Deere claimed the reason that they could not sell units was because they could not build enough of them. So he wanted to license the Deere design, which they would not do. Kinze had a great banker that allowed him to fight all of this. If Deere would have just sold him units he would have never challenged their patents. He has no input whatsoever in the design of that unit. It says in his book that his first units were an exact copy of the Max Emerge design. 

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4 hours ago, 766 Man said:

  I'd be careful as to saying what was stolen from whom.  It always has been a very gray area for sure.  NH sued IH over the rotary combine concept and maintained IH stole the 35 rake and 720 forage harvester from NH products.  

My guess is the contention of the suit was the rotor design.  You look at the original TR 70 rotor and specifically the inlet with the flights kinda looks like the AFX rotor.  I mean why did IH had use those elephant ears forever???

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2 minutes ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

I have read Jon Kinzenbaw’s book. The whole situation between Deere and Kinze originated with Kinze’s planter toolbar, for which he held a patent for the way it folded for transport. Deere wanted to license his frame design for Deere to build and sell themselves. Kinzenbaw thought the money they offered him was not nearly what his idea was worth, which I agree. Since he would not license his toolbar they decided not to sell him anymore units. Kinze did not build any of his own units until Deere refused to sell him any. By refusing to sell him units, they were attempting to strong arm him into giving up. Deere claimed the reason that they could not sell units was because they could not build enough of them. So he wanted to license the Deere design, which they would not do. Kinze had a great banker that allowed him to fight all of this. If Deere would have just sold him units he would have never challenged their patents. He has no input whatsoever in the design of that unit. It says in his book that his first units were an exact copy of the Max Emerge design. 

  As I recall the late 1970's JD's claim of balls to the wall in terms of planter production was true.  Implement and Tractor an industry publication noted that JD was supplying 3/4's of the planter market then.  That is a fantastic share of a market maybe rivaled by the Model T in the first several years of building them.  Back to JD planters were in so short supply that JD was retailing a 7000 6 row with a choice of fertilizer system for over 10,000 dollar by 1979-80.  IH might have been half of that for a 56 and maybe two thirds for a 400.  Dad was going to buy a 56 until he worked a deal to put a tractor ahead of the neighbor's corn planter.

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1 minute ago, 766 Man said:

  As I recall the late 1970's JD's claim of balls to the wall in terms of planter production was true.  Implement and Tractor an industry publication noted that JD was supplying 3/4's of the planter market then.  That is a fantastic share of a market maybe rivaled by the Model T in the first several years of building them.  Back to JD planters were in so short supply that JD was retailing a 7000 6 row with a choice of fertilizer system for over 10,000 dollar by 1979-80.  IH might have been half of that for a 56 and maybe two thirds for a 400.  Dad was going to buy a 56 until he worked a deal to put a tractor ahead of the neighbor's corn planter.

The problem with Deere’s claim about shortages is that they would not allow Kinze to license the design. They claimed they wanted to sell to him, when everybody knew that wasn’t true. He was able to come up with documents in his court case that showed some internal Deere memos ordering dealers not to sell to Jon Kinzenbaw. I believe a Deere dealer that he was friends at the time also showed him the memo. Deere told him if he wanted row units he had to purchase a Deere toolbar to get them, which some customers did because the toolbar was so much better. 

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31 minutes ago, Lazy WP said:

Getting under a John Deere guy’s skin is about like saying IHC couldn’t survive on its own and had to have Case come in and bale them out 🤪

Just saying the word  “case” in front of IH gets guys riled up.  

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1 minute ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

The problem with Deere’s claim about shortages is that they would not allow Kinze to license the design. They claimed they wanted to sell to him, when everybody knew that wasn’t true. He was able to come up with documents in his court case that showed some internal Deere memos ordering dealers not to sell to Jon Kinzenbaw. I believe a Deere dealer that he was friends at the time also showed him the memo. Deere told him if he wanted row units he had to purchase a Deere toolbar to get them, which some customers did because the toolbar was so much better. 

  All companies loath to license the rights to products out to other companies.  The reproduction part market for old tractors is an example as all the majors greatly limited what independents could build.  

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1 minute ago, Big Bud guy said:

Just saying the word  “case” in front of IH gets guys riled up.  

Sadly it wasn’t even Case anymore 😩

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2 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

Just saying the word  “case” in front of IH gets guys riled up.  

  That was a huge deal around here the first 10-15 years that Case IH existed.  JD shot themselves in the foot by closing a few popular dealers around here during the early 1980's but that all changed after the merger.  A lot more 50-55 series JD's around here than Case IH back during the late 1980's. 

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2 minutes ago, Lazy WP said:

Sadly it wasn’t even Case anymore 😩

Exactly.  That is what ****** binderoids off.  My neighbor had a 1480 combine at one time.  It was one of the last ones made.  Black cab roof and said “Case International Harvester” on the sides.  It was 100% IH but he called it a Case IH and even Case 1480 sometimes

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13 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  That was a huge deal around here the first 10-15 years that Case IH existed.  JD shot themselves in the foot by closing a few popular dealers around here during the early 1980's but that all changed after the merger.  A lot more 50-55 series JD's around here than Case IH back during the late 1980's. 

The guy from JD who rode with me this spring when we were running a prototype cart, his family used to own an IH dealership.  They started in the 1950s and when the merger happened, they got a letter in the mail saying they were out.  So his father gave IH whatever the middle finger and went across town and bought into the JD dealer which they ran up until the mid 2000s.  
 

This guy grew up on IH and then JD so he has an unique perspective. He says he has the dealer only edition belt buckle and toy IH handed out at the 88 series 2+2 introduction down in AZ that his father brought home.  And that he got to set in a brand new 7288 at their dealer when IH was parading it around all the stores right before IH went under.  

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