Question about 4386 Exhaust Gas Temp EGT seeming to be high, maybe lacking power? Am I pulling to much load?

[BigTom209]

Hey guys,

 

This tractor is pretty new to me got it last year and have only put on about 65 hours pulling a fairly small breaking disc and it had no real major issues. But my tractor does not have a factory EGT monitor or alarm, I talked with a few people who said this is very important for this tractor to have so I ordered one off Amazon made with the finest Chinesium metals.

 

Anyway, it's a nice little digital display with Type K thermocouple sensor and what I liked is the ability to set a relay output for alarming, I wired in a 90dB siren and some LED lights to come on if I overtemp, and I liked it enough I bought a red one for my EGT and a blue one for my coolant temp since my OEM temp gauge I didn't trust. Speaking of trust issues, being these sensors were cheap I wanted to test them and I use type K sensor at work so I tested them compared to my proper calibrated Fluke meter but my heat gun would only get up to 500F so I couldn't go full scale but it was accurate withing 10F from 0-500F

 

SO. It's installed, working, and assuming accurate. We need to do some cultivating and had an extra 37' old Morris in the weeds with shovels on it, I took it out to the field and after warming up gave it a go. I wanted to start off slow, so I put it in low, second gear 2610RPM which was I think 2.7MPH wasn't digging tooooo deep but it was in the ground and my temps climbed up very quickly and actually peaked at almost 1500 within probably a minute before I pulled the shovels out of the ground and the temps dropped off. I know reading the manual, this tractor should never operate over 1420 and should be in the range of 1120F-1320F in normal operating conditions dependent on elevation

 

I played around with it some, and it seemed even if I put the shovels into the ground even a little bit, like barely an inch or so the temps shot back up over the 1320F max and into the 1400s. I also noticed when I did have the shovels decent in the ground, I would loose RPM when climbing slight hills, like be down to 2400RPM by the time I reached the top so it was struggling.

 

So, is this simply a matter of this tractor cannot handle a 37' cultivator with shovels and it's being grossly overloaded which is why the temps rose so high? I almost don't believe that because we've used some old John Deere 180HP tractors on the same cultivator and it's been fine, this 4386 should have enough power I would think? Maybe this sensor is totally out of whack at the higher temps and this isn't an issue? I'm not sure what to think. What have you guys comfortably pulled with your 4386 and never had temp issues?

I'm going to double check the timing tomorrow but beyond that I'm not sure what else it could be or what I could try/do to figure this out

[acem]

I pull a 27ft ih 4500 field cultivator with my 4366. 

It handles it fine. I don't have a egt guage but my temperature guage is good (mechanical) and she runs cool. I run low 4th at moderate rpm, my tachometer is broke.

Thx-Ace 

[jass1660]

Where did you put the probe? Before turbo will read 300 degrees higher than after the turbo. 

[England806]

If your tractor can’t pull it at 5mph you are probably overloading it. Definitely worth testing the accuracy of the gauge at higher temps if you can. I fitted a cheap Chinese one to our Unimogs and it’s accurate to within 2% when I had it tested. But if the implement is only in the ground a couple of inches egt shouldn’t go that high. Probe is usually pre turbine.   
as you say check timing. Also check for air restrictions and exhaust restrictions.  Brakes not dragging? Hydraulics not on full pressure all the time? Is the compressor wheel in good shape? As a worn wheel isn’t very efficient and will contribute to high egts. There are plenty of folks on here much more knowledgeable than me so I’m sure some will give you more info. 

[Matt Kirsch]

Coming at this from the angle of someone who has ZERO experience with "big" farming, my first question is:

What were you pulling the 37' Morris with before?

If a stock 966, you've got serious problems.

If a Steiger Panther 1000, you're overloading the tractor.

[BigTom209]

38 minutes ago, Matt Kirsch said:

Coming at this from the angle of someone who has ZERO experience with "big" farming, my first question is:

What were you pulling the 37' Morris with before?

If a stock 966, you've got serious problems.

If a Steiger Panther 1000, you're overloading the tractor.

We’ve pulled that cultivator with John Deere 8430 or the Case Magnum 7130, both around that 180-200HP. I don’t recall anyone using the Fendt 720 or 920 on the cultivator. We’ve also got some bigger tractors but those get hooked up to the 43’ cultivators and don’t break a sweat pulling those. 

 

So that’s why I think this is weird how it’s acting, this tractor has a bit more HP and heavier then the other tractors we’ve used

[BigTom209]

7 hours ago, acem said:

I pull a 27ft ih 4500 field cultivator with my 4366. 

It handles it fine. I don't have a egt guage but my temperature guage is good (mechanical) and she runs cool. I run low 4th at moderate rpm, my tachometer is broke.

Thx-Ace 

Thanks for the reply, my coolant temp seemed to stay reasonable I think 150-170 depending what I was doing so that didn’t seem bad and not concerning. 
 

Usually with cultivators I’d assume 5HP per foot, so 27’ would be a nice simple pull

[twood1954]

I only use auto meter EGT Gauge rated to 2000-degree F.  My opinion if you are going to run any gauge make sure it's accurate.   

[BigTom209]

5 hours ago, jass1660 said:

Where did you put the probe? Before turbo will read 300 degrees higher than after the turbo. 

I installed the probe before the turbo, this is where the factory sensor goes from the manual and I’ve seen a few tractors with them installed in this location

 

only difference is mine is installed in the right port versus the left port like in the picture. The right plug actually came out fairly easily, the left one wasn’t budging so I didn’t want to snap it off

[BigTom209]

7 minutes ago, twood1954 said:

I only use auto meter EGT Gauge rated to 2000-degree F.  My opinion if you are going to run any gauge make sure it's accurate.   

Most of the EGTs I looked at cheap or expensive use a type K thermocouple wire, good for like -300 to 2300F range. Do you know what your Auto Meter uses? 

 

I have no reason to suspect these not being accurate, it’s just one of those unknowns so have to consider the possibility. I just wish I had taken a bit more time when I was testing at work to figure out a way to test full range and not just up to 500F

 

I actually bought a spare because I liked it enough to consider for another tractor, I’m debating trying to install it as well so I’d have 2 just to see if there is a difference. I just need to get that other exhaust port plug out…

[acem]

Be sure to check your air filter too. Mine was full of rats nest when I checked it this spring. They ruined the filter.

I'm not familiar with a Morris cultivator but 37 ft sounds like alot. I've pulled my 27ft with a 1066. It was overloaded.

The 4366/4386 with duals has too much traction for its torque. It will pull down instead of slipping. By pulling down it overloads the engine. My 5488 feels more powerful because it slips instead of pulling down.  I want to change my 4366 out to big singles.

[BigTom209]

3 hours ago, England806 said:

If your tractor can’t pull it at 5mph you are probably overloading it. Definitely worth testing the accuracy of the gauge at higher temps if you can. I fitted a cheap Chinese one to our Unimogs and it’s accurate to within 2% when I had it tested. But if the implement is only in the ground a couple of inches egt shouldn’t go that high. Probe is usually pre turbine.   
as you say check timing. Also check for air restrictions and exhaust restrictions.  Brakes not dragging? Hydraulics not on full pressure all the time? Is the compressor wheel in good shape? As a worn wheel isn’t very efficient and will contribute to high egts. There are plenty of folks on here much more knowledgeable than me so I’m sure some will give you more info. 

I was surprised it was climbing in temps like it was especially since I was in such a low gear just creeping along. Need to be able to pull the cultivator around 4-4.5MPH for our soil, any faster we burn up shovels quite quickly. 

The air filter was cleaned well, but I’ll maybe check the inside filter a bit better don’t recall if it was cleaned. 
 

exhaust I wouldn’t suspect any restrictions, just straight piped but can try taking a peak

 

brakes… what brakes??? lol I have just an Ebrake at the moment, waiting for a rebuild kit for my booster then need to flush things out and get the main brakes functioning again 

 

hydraulics not on that I’m aware of. Unfolded the wings and then it’s just up/down on the cultivator.

 

Not sure what you mean by compressor wheel? In the turbo? I honestly did think maybe this could be a turbo issue, it’s original from what I can tell. if it’s not working properly would loose HP and would make things work harder and likely add to the EGT.. might need to dig into that more. 

[BigTom209]

8 minutes ago, acem said:

Be sure to check your air filter too. Mine was full of rats nest when I checked it this spring. They ruined the filter.

I'm not familiar with a Morris cultivator but 37 ft sounds like alot. I've pulled my 27ft with a 1066. It was overloaded.

The 4366/4386 with duals has too much traction for its torque. It will pull down instead of slipping. By pulling down it overloads the engine. My 5488 feels more powerful because it slips instead of pulling down.  I want to change my 4366 out to big singles.

37’ is a decent pull for sure, again assuming 5HP per foot should be a 185HP+ tractor which is what we’ve used before on it (the tractors knew the cultivator was behind it, made them work) but this 4386 has a fair bit more HP so it should be able to pull it without issues. If I was digging 6” into the ground I could see it being overloaded but when I was testing it the shovels were barely in the ground so just seems odd. And the fact it was loosing RPMs when going slightly uphill to me seems like it’s overloaded… or else it’s lacking HP for some reason. Timing? Fuel? Air? Turbo? Dunno. 
 

 

I also changed both fuel filters so should be good that way 

[BigTom209]

Picture of the gauges. Blue one is supposed to be water temp and red Exhaust, but I swapped sensors to see if the issue maybe the digital readout but it was the same with both.
 

nice little displays, can set temp alarms and they have a relay output so I wired in those LEDs and a siren if the temps go over. Need to add a few more sirens though, surprisingly can’t hear them when the tractor is screaming lol 

 

and of course the voltmeter with USB ports for charging and a phone mount on the top so I can at least see the screen while in the tractor 

[Farmall Doctor]

How much smoke is there out the exhaust pipe when working hard?

[snoshoe]

36 minutes ago, BigTom209 said:

air filter was cleaned well, but I’ll maybe check the inside filter a bit better don’t recall if it was

A word about this. It is not a two stage filter. It is single stage with a safety element. The inner element is not to be cleaned. Any discoloration at all replace both elements. Because outer element has to be leaking and safety element is to small to withstand any blockage at all. Countless times I have found safety element just slightly darker on outside than inside and causing problems.

[BigTom209]

1 hour ago, snoshoe said:

A word about this. It is not a two stage filter. It is single stage with a safety element. The inner element is not to be cleaned. Any discoloration at all replace both elements. Because outer element has to be leaking and safety element is to small to withstand any blockage at all. Countless times I have found safety element just slightly darker on outside than inside and causing problems.

Awesome info! Yeah we have so many tractors around here each with their own quirks it’s good to know these things. I’ll double check them when I get a chance maybe just order a set anyway just so I’m not second guessing 

[Jeff-C-IL]

AS someone very familiar with the 4386 w/ a boost & EGT.....

1) I pulled a 28' FC in 5th gear and it was all she wanted.  Also a 12' 5 shank DMI 730 disk-ripper or a 30' disk is about a full load.

2) These tractors have more HP (230 ENGINE, not to be confused with PTO), but they use most of it driving the second rear end.   Add that to the "no slippage" and I found that the 4386 would not pull any more than a 1486, it just did it without slipping.   DOn't expect to much, its designed to plod along pulling thru whatever....mud included.

3) of course, no slippage make the engine work harder in tough spots.   And yes, a very slight incline DOES up the pull significantly...its always amazed me how a 5% grade can add that much extra pull to a 30' implement buried in the ground!

4) Yes, the temps DO shoot up really fast under load, and fall off just as fast.    You really need a boost gauge - the combination of the two is what lets you see the motor working.  If the boost gauge is not peaking, the EGT should not be climbing either

5) On the flip side - your tractor should NOT be running that hot unless its pulling its guts out.   Yes, 2400 rpm is a good pull, my 4386 would usually be running 1200 at that point.  I never saw my EGT go over 1300, but then I watched too.   I feel like your gauge may be reading a little hot.

6) BTW,  If you have not done so already, I strongly recommend a larger turbo.   It really livens up a 4386, huge difference.    I had mine fail, and put the TO3 back on because they didn't have the larger one at the time---total DOG!   I swapped it with the larger turbo we had installed years earlier on the 1066, and much better---worth the time to swap!  (Dad wasn't too happy about losing the big turbo on his 1066....!)

7) Do check your timing....that almost sounds like what happened when my "reman" injection pump was set off 17 deg internally from the rebuilder.   No power and got hot easily.   Don't think thats the problem, but check.

8: Add that boost gauge.  I found that pulling the throttle back until the boost just began to fall off, the tractor ran cooler, and I used a lot less fuel (really important right now!)

9) I'm sure this is obvious, but you have checked fuel flow & installed new filters?   checked the hose to the pump?

9) I replaced the 4386 with a 9230.   8.3L with 240 engine HP.   I found it performs almost the same as the 43 did, same implements, maybe a little more power.    

 

[twood1954]

EXProduct 

ST3314

HAUST GAS TEMP, PRO STEPPER MOTOR, 52MM, BLK, 0-2000 °F

Product ST3314 .  I have probe installed under turbo is standard position.  Have you checked timing on the pump more timing less exhaust heat.  You all would not want to know how high my EGT's run ever with water injection.  Good luck.

[BigTom209]

13 hours ago, Farmall Doctor said:

How much smoke is there out the exhaust pipe when working hard?

I haven't been outside to see, but I heard someone say it was smoking a bit more then they thought it should be. So don't really have a very good answer for that question. I don't think it was blowing piles out the stack though

[BigTom209]

11 hours ago, twood1954 said:

EXProduct 

ST3314

HAUST GAS TEMP, PRO STEPPER MOTOR, 52MM, BLK, 0-2000 °F

Product ST3314 .  I have probe installed under turbo is standard position.  Have you checked timing on the pump more timing less exhaust heat.  You all would not want to know how high my EGT's run ever with water injection.  Good luck.

 

Nice gauges, it looks like it using the same Type K thermocouple for a sensor as everyone else so probe wise should be no issue with accuracy it's just a matter of if the cheap display I have is accurate or not.

 

I did tear into the timing today, but my service manual has no info for checking timing so I'm flying blind a bit. Found a few topics on the forum so have a "kindof" idea how it's done. I found the pointer on the back of the pump gear and took awhile but I found timing marks on the crankshaft (underneath a layer of paint so that was a PITA to find...)

But what i can't figure out is how to figure out what degree the crankshaft is at when the needle is lined up with the notch on the pump gear... I'll post some pics in a min and maybe someone can explain how it works

[BigTom209]

So I can line up the needle to the notch on the back of the pump gear… but when I look at the crankshaft pulley all I see is that big thick pin but it’s like an inch or better above the pulley marks soooo how do you read that?? Depending what angle you look at it would change the degrees… so not sure if there is another somewhere I’m missing??

[FARMALL FIXER]

Your timing appears to off quite bit . If I remember correctly it should be 18 degrees 

[BigTom209]

To give you an idea how far this “pin” is from the crankshaft pulley… pin is like as thick as my pinky so it seems like a weird way to point to the timing mark?? Gotta be another way..

[BigTom209]

8 minutes ago, FARMALL FIXER said:

Your timing appears to off quite bit . If I remember correctly it should be 18 degrees 

I could raise the camera up higher and make it point to 18… 😂