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1977 International 3500A Backhoe


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  • 3 weeks later...

Ok guys this engine has yet to turn over for me.  I think the "dump switch" i.e. the safety switch is not disengaging the engine from the transmission. The electric part of the switch is doing its job, the starter will crank...but I only get the "thud". Flywheel will not move.

 

I hooked up the battery again today to play around a bit.  Behind/under the key switch, this disentigrated (see photos) first two, looking at my manual I can't determine what it is.  It looks like a starter solenoid? There are 2 other "blocks" that were disentigrated too, they look like some type of voltage regulator. You can one of them to the left of the "? Starter solenoid?"

The third picture is some type of switch, not sure what switch and the other end of the red wire (heading to the front of the tractor it is not attached to anything.   Don't see where is would go either.  Don't see it in my electric schematic in my manual either.

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The first two pictures sure look like a very deteriorated starter solenoid. I don't think its original to your machine. The only one your machine should have is the one that is integral to the starter that also throws the bendix.

I don't think we talked about what transmission you have, but since you mentioned a dump valve I assume you have the torque converter transmission vs the gear drive or hydrostatic drive. On the torque converter transmission the dump pedal in no way prevents engine rotation. It has an electrical switch for safety that will not allow engine starter to engage unless pedal is depressed. Similar to a clutch safety switch on an automobile. But that switch usually gets bypassed and removed at some point on these machines.

The third photo shows an aftermarket or dealer installed switch that is usually used for a back-up alarm. The springy part used to be straight and when levers and linkages contact and move the springy part it closes the circuit making it go beep-beep-beep-beep when you back up. Not related to starting in any way.

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Thanks Binderdan.

I'm pretty sure this has the Hydrostatic transmission. In the service manual, (I have 2) it states and shows the safety switch (electric signal allows starter to get power) must be engaged.  I have made it this far, my new starter engages.  The problem I'm having is disengaging the hydrostatic transmission from the engine.   Where dose the hydraulic pump get its power?  Electric? PTO mechanical from a running engine?  In the diagram, notice the hydraulic high pressure box up and to the right.

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If it is hydrostatic, I assume the disconnect is to aid starting the engine in cold weather when the transmission oil is cold. A transmission disconnect would not prevent the engine from turning. It certainly would not cause your “bar starter” to break. I do not think this is the cause of the engine not turning over. I suspect it is stuck very tight. 

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I think your problem is within the engine and not behind it.  Time to drop the pan and see what's up.  The D239 has a balancer in the bottom, at least the DT239 did, that is gear driven off the crankshaft.  A failed balancer will lockup the engine.  There are other reasons for a locked up engine also but without a look inside you will not know.  Before spending anymore money on the machine you need to determine what has failed and is it repairable with parts availability today.  Good luck with it.

Dennis

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The hydrostatic transmission builds its hydraulic pressure from the charge pump. Which is the first thing the transmission input shaft drives. The transmission input shaft is directly driven off the flywheel with no physical disconnect like a clutch. It turns with the engine always. Pushing the dump valve does alleviate some pressure that can help reduce load on the starter motor on a cold day. I have the same setup on my IH 260A which is the next generation of the same machine. I have never depressed the dump valve to start it(my electrical switch is bypassed), but I live in the desert southwest and have never had the need. Not saying you shouldn't depress it, but you don't need to in order to rotate the engine. Pressing the dump valve when starting can prevent sudden unexpected jolts forward or backwards when the engine starts, so it can be safer to do. There is nothing on this transmission that would hold the engine from physically rotating unless the transmission has a major problem, like a locked up input shaft or charge pump.

Hydraulic pressure for the loader, hoe, bucket, and such comes from a hydraulic pump on the right side of the transmission.

The D239 in my 260A was locked up when I got it. I went down every rabbit hole and possibility before finding #4 rod bearing had spun and stacked, locking up a very clean engine tight. 😢  A full engine rebuild later I have a GREAT machine!

I am also thinking your problem is more engine related than transmission. Keep us posted, I'm anxious to hear what you find.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Good morning all.

 Well it appears everyone else was correct.  I was wrong. The property owner was able to move the backhoe to a another location on his property using a Bobcat and another tractor. He said it rolled rather freely.  

Several of you have suggested I drop the pan to see what I can see. The biggest problem is where this is located is very wet ground and 3 of the tires continuously hold air the 4th tire needs to be refilled every day. It is slowly sinking.  I have minimal area to work underneath this backhoe.  I'm not a mechanic, but I can fix most things. Whatever I end up doing is probably gonna have to be done in this field.  Any infinite wisdom is most surely appreciated understanding my limitations due to location mainly.

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8 hours ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

Do you have access to anywhere that it can be stored other than a field? Maybe towed to a gravel lot? If you could get it on solid ground you can block it up so you don’t have to worry about the leaking tire. 

Unfortunately, I do not.  So I might only have 8" of clearance under the best of circumstances.  

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If you don't have one , get a hydraulic jack. A twenty ton will jack up at least the corner of any tractor you are likely to own. Use rocks or such to create a base for the jack and wood chunks for blocking to hod it up. Now you can get under and start the technical work. Card board flats help to keep the victories organized as they come off. Any progress you make toward repair is a victory. Going back together will be a little easier. Good luck with it.

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I'm glad to hear you were able to move it. Hopefully you can get it jacked up and blocked so you can get more than 8" under it.

As I recall the oil pan is cast iron and pretty heavy. The dipstick tube is soldered in place and adds a level of difficulty when dropping the pan and reinstalling. I lay on my back under the pan and use my chest to hold it up as I start some bolts when reinstalling. Also the oil pickup and balancer hang kinda low, so you will need more than 8" clearance to make this an easy removal.

Once you have the pan pulled you can look up and see if it is rusty on the bottom of the cylinders. If you remove the oil pickup and balancer assembly to have a closer look you need to know that the balancer is driven off the gear in the middle of the crankshaft. This gear and one of the balancer gears are timed to each other. There should be a timing mark but its hard to see. You might be wise to scribe another mark on the side of the gears if you remove it.

Hopefully you will find something obvious and simple. If not, the problem could be up top in the cylinders, or like mine that looked perfect everywhere had a spun rod bearing.

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  • 1 month later...

😇I was pretty interested in your story here. I just wanted to kind of let you in  on what I went through.

 The best I know to do it is have you find the link to the post that I put on this Red Power Magazine.

 I took a screenshot of the top of my page maybe you can find it that way. My 3616 was locked up for about 4 years for the time I actually got to working on it. It is a gasoline 6 cylinder but pistons and rust are pistons and rust anywhere and everywhere.

 I do wish you the best in your endeavors.

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1 hour ago, Biged415 said:

😇I was pretty interested in your story here. I just wanted to kind of let you in  on what I went through.

 The best I know to do it is have you find the link to the post that I put on this Red Power Magazine.

 I took a screenshot of the top of my page maybe you can find it that way. My 3616 was locked up for about 4 years for the time I actually got to working on it. It is a gasoline 6 cylinder but pistons and rust are pistons and rust anywhere and everywhere.

 I do wish you the best in your endeavors.

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Here is the link to @Biged415’s thread

https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/133166-3616-backhoe/

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Well, the backhoe is still sitting where it was rolled to (via skidsteer and tractor).  Obviously the transmission is sufficiently disconnected from the engine.

About 3 weeks ago, I noticed the fluid level had dropped in the injection chambers.  I thought the engine was completely filled with Marvel Mystery Oil.  I then managed to pour another 96 oz. of MMO down the injector ports.  I then took the valve cover off, saw a small amount of rust and sprayed PB blaster in there.  There was no gasket on the valve cover, just a shoddy tore up bead of silicone. 

I'll be heading up to it tomorrow and will update you all on any progress.

I plan on turning that engine over tomorrow!

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3 hours ago, Biged415 said:

To: Dirt...Floor...Poor

 I hope I'm not out of line asking you this question on this thread, but I saw your response to another person while looking for some information on a hydrostatic drive.

 '70  3616... how many hydraulic filters and where are they.

 Thanks in advance, Biged415. 

It’s not out of line at all. These threads are just conversations among friends. Unfortunately, I don’t know the answer to your question. Almost all of my experience working on hydrostatic systems is on green combines. 

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