IH 3800 Industrial backhoe

[blacksmith]

I picked up this IH 3800 Industrial Backhoe Last week..   Doesn't run well.   

Pretty smokey with strong unburnt fuel smell.. Almost like there is a exhaust valve open..  Have valve cover gaskets ordered so can get in there and check it out and adjust the valves if needed. 

I just got in the Owner, parts and engine service manuals (D282)..   Looking for a transmission manual and injection pump manual and if possible a brake master cylinder manual (MICO) 

The machine had a fine layer of what I assume is dried oil and dirt which is about 1/8" thick over everywhere under the machine.  

I've taken a 4400psi pressure washer to it and the stuff is stuck on really, really well..  I started to think it's some sort of undercoating.. I have never seen such tenacious grime is that is the case..  I then went thru and greased every fitting I could find with Mobil CMM moly grease. 

The paint is really nice and shiny under the stuff. 

I am in need of a transmission filter and hydraulic filter.           

Any known dealers for Industrial IH products left?  

I started a facebook group..  There is nearly no information on these really cool machines.. 

 

[nepoweshiekfarmalls]

Definitely a unique machine. Looks like it is in decent condition.  Parts availability will be an issue. 282 parts will not be a problem. 

[Under_Pressure]

I've got a 3850 that I'm working on getting going, which is the same machine but in a wheel loader configuration. It is turned around, with the engine behind the operator and the loader on the "short" end like a typical wheel loader (no attachment on the other end, just counterweight). I know IH industrial equipment has a reputation for hard to find parts, but one of the reasons I was OK with buying this particular piece is that there really isn't a lot of unique IH stuff. It's basically built out of commercially available parts- the frame is fabricated steel, the axles are Rockwell truck axles I believe (with planetary drive ends which may or may not be IH specific), the transmission is an Allison. The only real main component that is IH is the engine which, being a D282, has quite a bit of support relatively speaking (as an aside, having been made into the 70s, this must be one of the last IH pieces to use the venerable D282?). It's a steerable axle so no articulation components to deal with. Hydraulic brakes which are pretty straightforward. Despite their wheel-loader DNA, these weren't built at Hough but rather at Louisville.

So with a little ingenuity, a guy should be able to keep one of these going. That said, though many parts may be available, it may take a little bit of detective work- except maybe for parts common with ag machines, you probably can't walk into a dealer with a list and get them all ordered. Some seal PNs I was searching did pop up on a Komatsu website, which makes some sense as Komatsu is who ended up with the remains of Hough/IH industrial after Dresser. But I doubt there would be any "support" to speak of, just a few common parts that happen to cross reference to something that is still relevant for them.

I have found manuals for about everything- engine, trans, chassis, etc.- on ebay. Mostly reprint, one or two NOS.

Anyway, I think these things are kind of a forgotten gem from IH. A nice size and an interesting design. If I get the one I have squared away I'd love to find a backhoe version like yours one day.

[Matt Kirsch]

The only vestiges of IH's Construction Division left are the DRESSTA bulldozers, and even then I'm not sure how many parts, if any, on these machines can trace their lineage back to the IH days.

IH sold the construction division to Dresser in the early 1980s. Dresser only wanted the bulldozers. Everything else was dropped virtually before the ink dried on the paperwork. Once the parts supplies ran out, too bad so sad. Eventually it ended up being owned by Komatsu, and more recently was spun off as DRESSTA.

@Under_Pressure has the right idea about keeping a machine like this going. Takes some creativity, knowing who made the original components, and sometimes a bit of expert fabrication. If this backhoe has the same kind of swing motor arrangement as other IH backhoes that will be your biggest challenge to fix. I might be looking for a way to convert it to a swing cylinder arrangement, and get rid of the motor.

[Jeff-C-IL]

Does not look like it has the Backhoe on, did you get that separate or is it missing?

[Rawleigh99]

You may have to use the Wix "Lookup by Size/ Dimansions" app if you have an old one to measure.   I have a Wabco 444 Grader that I am having to use that site to find hydraulic and clutch lube oil filters for.  It is a pretty neat site actually.

https://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/FilterBySize.aspx

The 3850 with the 282 is listed but the 3800 is not.

https://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/Applications.aspx?Section=4

[blacksmith]

14 hours ago, Under_Pressure said:

I've got a 3850 that I'm working on getting going, which is the same machine but in a wheel loader configuration. It is turned around, with the engine behind the operator and the loader on the "short" end like a typical wheel loader (no attachment on the other end, just counterweight). I know IH industrial equipment has a reputation for hard to find parts, but one of the reasons I was OK with buying this particular piece is that there really isn't a lot of unique IH stuff. It's basically built out of commercially available parts- the frame is fabricated steel, the axles are Rockwell truck axles I believe (with planetary drive ends which may or may not be IH specific), the transmission is an Allison. The only real main component that is IH is the engine which, being a D282, has quite a bit of support relatively speaking (as an aside, having been made into the 70s, this must be one of the last IH pieces to use the venerable D282?). It's a steerable axle so no articulation components to deal with. Hydraulic brakes which are pretty straightforward. Despite their wheel-loader DNA, these weren't built at Hough but rather at Louisville.

So with a little ingenuity, a guy should be able to keep one of these going. That said, though many parts may be available, it may take a little bit of detective work- except maybe for parts common with ag machines, you probably can't walk into a dealer with a list and get them all ordered. Some seal PNs I was searching did pop up on a Komatsu website, which makes some sense as Komatsu is who ended up with the remains of Hough/IH industrial after Dresser. But I doubt there would be any "support" to speak of, just a few common parts that happen to cross reference to something that is still relevant for them.

I have found manuals for about everything- engine, trans, chassis, etc.- on ebay. Mostly reprint, one or two NOS.

Anyway, I think these things are kind of a forgotten gem from IH. A nice size and an interesting design. If I get the one I have squared away I'd love to find a backhoe version like yours one day.

WOW, thanks so much.. You seem to have a lot of experience with "this" kind of thing.    Does RedPowerMagizine have a sticky section?  Be great to document several rebuilds with parts sources..  Most of the threads I found were dead and no one followed up with part access, number nor results..  

These machines seems so far and few in between when I saw it on FB market place I reached out right away.. it just looks like it could do it all then more..  Whether it can or not i'm ok either way.. 

I love that the DNA for the 3800, 3820 and the 3850 is nearly the same.  The 3850 is a very neat machine.. Congrats..  Did you start a thread on it? 

I have to ask because you seem to be that much further ahead with information..     This model is put together as you pointed out with outside sourced items.. 

The problem I am having is: " I don't know what sources they are and which vintage"..     I can weld and fabricate so not concerned with the machines body.. 

I'm not new to old iron..  Be it manual or engine driven.. Been working on a Davis TF200 which needed a lotta love.. 

Starters would be the transmission..   Allison:  Which model?  The tag sadly on this machine was mostly destroyed by someone trying to read it so used everything they should not have.. (sand blaster, wire brush) to remove the paint. 

How do I read this?  Does someone have a clean tag that shows what series of numbers means? 

At this point a transmission manual, fuel injections pump and brake master manual are all that I could want.  Huge fan of factory manuals.   ( I have owners, engine, Parts break down) 

I'm really excited to have it. I've always really liked the way they look..   it's overkill for our little place 

14 hours ago, Jeff-C-IL said:

Does not look like it has the Backhoe on, did you get that separate or is it missing?

The backhoe was removed by the original owner from what I was told. The guy I got it from rebuilt the pivot unit.  I ended up hauling it on my trailer which saved me some $$$ 

12 hours ago, Rawleigh99 said:

You may have to use the Wix "Lookup by Size/ Dimansions" app if you have an old one to measure.   I have a Wabco 444 Grader that I am having to use that site to find hydraulic and clutch lube oil filters for.  It is a pretty neat site actually.

https://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/FilterBySize.aspx

The 3850 with the 282 is listed but the 3800 is not.

https://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/Applications.aspx?Section=4

Thanks so much.. I ended up going over there and found the 3800, 3820, and 3850..   

I tried to catch a screen shot but the computer did not want to cooperate so had to snap a photo. 

Hope you guys don't mind all the photos..   I find them to be helpful.. 

The belts for the water pump, generator is a 17495..  When I compared the 2 for the fan and waterpump there is very little difference in overall length.. I ordered 2 of the 17495 and see if that will do the trick. 

Water pump was shot.. I have never seen a pump with such bad bearings..  Maybe 1/2" of play.. 

[blacksmith]

I had to go thru and straighten and align the throttle linkage..  It was all bent up for some reason. 

While I was at it (trying to find more room) to find more room.. I removed the throttle pedal and discovered there wasn't much left to the pin..  Also the coil tension spring inside was not working correctly because of rust and bad sizing of the spacer.. 

So I made a new pin out of lawnmower blade.. Forged it down and put a head on it.  Lawnmower blade is good tough steel with very good wear properties. 

There is also a spacer that goes inside the spring so while I was at it, I rolled up a new one with the correct clearance. 

The throttle control rod was stretched and cracked at the governor stop hole so welded it adding material and then cleaned up.. Same with the rod end that goes in the pedal. 

[blacksmith]

So after some digging the transmission is an "Allison" :

About the Allison Transmission TT & TRT Series

Allison TT (Twin Turbine) Series transmission consists of a 4 element converter that transmits power from the engine to the transmission gearing through two sets of turbine gears. When torque is in high demand, the freewheel clutch is engaged and the first turbine, assisted by the second turbine, drives the range gears. Once vehicle speed increases and torque demand decreases sufficiently, the second turbine assumes the entire load and the freewheel clutches disengages. This transition from high torque to high speed is automatic.  The most common applications for TT/TRT series transmissions are Front End Wheel Loaders, Deck Winches, Cranes, Material Handling Equipment, Compactors, Tractor Pulls, and Skidders.

Features of the Allison TT/TRT Series Transmission

• TT Series = 2 forward ranges, 1 reverse range

• TRT Series= 2 forward ranges, 2 reverse ranges

• Internal Brake option

• Inching, Air or hydraulic controls

• Multiple converter series and ratios

• Long Drop or Short Drop

• Remote or direct engine mount

• Converter Driven PTO

• Output Driven PTO

[Rawleigh99]

Cool!  Thanks for the pictures.  Looks like you are on your way with repairs. A lot of the old machines are fixed by trial, error and hopefully common sense.  You will fild this forum very helpful.

[Rawleigh99]

Also, since you are into blacksmithing, check out some of Sledgehammers posts on the Coffee Shop forum.  He even did one on building his gas forge.

@Sledgehammer

Also you should move this post over to the construction forum.  You might get more responses.

[Jacka]

I like when old machines get fixed from years of cobbling up.Though for sure I was one of those cobblers. I did it out of necessity and not having quite the tools for machining or blacksmithing. I too look at the manufacturers components verse brand of machine.Far to easy for a dealer to say not in my book,can't order it ,buy new machine.

[Under_Pressure]

I BELIEVE (don't have the information in front of me right now) that the transmission is an Allison TT2221-1. Was used on machines from other manufacturers (Case for one), so that should expand the pool of parts sources should that be necessary. Next time I'm by it I will check the tag.

Honestly I haven't done too much on mine yet- I picked it up in November but don't have a place to work inside on it at the moment, so I only messed around a little bit until there got too much snow and cold (it's also at my property which is a little ways from where I am currently living which makes it hard to just tinker for a few minutes on a nice day). It wasn't running because the injection pump was cracked- he gave me a couple other D282 takeoff pumps with it in hopes that one of them will work, though I will probably just get one rebuilt. Also the rear tires had chloride in them and one leaked while it was sitting after the pump went out, so the rim is trashed. Need to track down a different wheel or, perhaps more likely, get another 24" rim and weld the existing center in. At least that way I can move it (I got it off my trailer by lifting the rear end with an excavator and walking it off).

FYI I looked through my ebay history and I did NOT have a transmission specific manual- just parts manual, chassis manual, operators manual, and D282 engine manual (which is three parts- general, fuel system, and parts catalog). But once you have the Allison model #, there are Allison service manuals out there should you need or want it.

[Binderoid]

Another feature of the Allison TT is its ability to deposit parts in the sump. Service brakes MUST BE USED when changing directions. The shock is absorbed 100% by the overrunning clutch, which controls which “range “ the converter is in. With a failed overrunning clutch, you have only the high side of the converter, because there is no way the low side turbine can transmit any power. Pull the suction strainer near the bottom of the transmission. If there’s a handful of pieces down there, that’s what used to be the overrunning clutch. Nothing in there, someone already cleaned it out or your clutch is ok (at least in one piece). Properly working, you should be able to spin all four wheels when you put the bucket against a bank of some sort. With a bad  O. clutch, the machine is still useable, just doesn’t have any guts. It is a good powerful trans, just has that strange weak link built in.

[Sledgehammer]

Interesting machine for sure. I like this also.  Don’t see a good cross peen being used much any more 😊 And a large anvil.....be still my beating heart....

[Jeff-C-IL]

I hate to be a negative kinda guy..... and I REALLY like your work on that pin.....But

Did you consider that the pin was worn, but the holes in the pedal were not (or minimal)?   You used a lawnmower blade to make a new pin....will the harder pin now wear the pedal out instead?  (I realize you may not be suing this daily!)

Pins/bolts are easy to change - holes in parts less so.   I always use the softest bolt I think will not break, for that exact reason.    I have a disk ripper that does a beautiful job, but is almost ready to be retired for scrap, because the sheer bolt holes are worn and egged from previous owner using too hard of sheer bolts.   Everything is welded to the main frame, there is no clearance to drill out or weld up the holes.

[blacksmith]

11 hours ago, Rawleigh99 said:

Also, since you are into blacksmithing, check out some of Sledgehammers posts on the Coffee Shop forum.  He even did one on building his gas forge.

@Sledgehammer

Also you should move this post over to the construction forum.  You might get more responses.

Can I move it to construction forum?  Or do you mean a completely different group? 

11 hours ago, Jacka said:

I like when old machines get fixed from years of cobbling up.Though for sure I was one of those cobblers. I did it out of necessity and not having quite the tools for machining or blacksmithing. I too look at the manufacturers components verse brand of machine.Far to easy for a dealer to say not in my book,can't order it ,buy new machine.

You and me both..  It's amazing what people will do to keep a machine running with a bad fix..  I'd rather fix it once..    Jacka, I think it's a skill set all it's own.. Resourceful people can do almost anything with nothing..   

10 hours ago, Under_Pressure said:

I BELIEVE (don't have the information in front of me right now) that the transmission is an Allison TT2221-1. Was used on machines from other manufacturers (Case for one), so that should expand the pool of parts sources should that be necessary. Next time I'm by it I will check the tag.

Honestly I haven't done too much on mine yet- I picked it up in November but don't have a place to work inside on it at the moment, so I only messed around a little bit until there got too much snow and cold (it's also at my property which is a little ways from where I am currently living which makes it hard to just tinker for a few minutes on a nice day). It wasn't running because the injection pump was cracked- he gave me a couple other D282 takeoff pumps with it in hopes that one of them will work, though I will probably just get one rebuilt. Also the rear tires had chloride in them and one leaked while it was sitting after the pump went out, so the rim is trashed. Need to track down a different wheel or, perhaps more likely, get another 24" rim and weld the existing center in. At least that way I can move it (I got it off my trailer by lifting the rear end with an excavator and walking it off).

FYI I looked through my ebay history and I did NOT have a transmission specific manual- just parts manual, chassis manual, operators manual, and D282 engine manual (which is three parts- general, fuel system, and parts catalog). But once you have the Allison model #, there are Allison service manuals out there should you need or want it.

Thank you.. Mentioning it was an Allison made it possible to spend a few hours to pin point it. 

So the transmission in my machine is a TT2220-1   (John Deere, Timber Jack used them in their skidders) I did go and look and there are a bunch of them used. 

I found the Transmission manual once I found out what model it was..  

Where do most get their Pumps rebuilt?

10 hours ago, Binderoid said:

Another feature of the Allison TT is its ability to deposit parts in the sump. Service brakes MUST BE USED when changing directions. The shock is absorbed 100% by the overrunning clutch, which controls which “range “ the converter is in. With a failed overrunning clutch, you have only the high side of the converter, because there is no way the low side turbine can transmit any power. Pull the suction strainer near the bottom of the transmission. If there’s a handful of pieces down there, that’s what used to be the overrunning clutch. Nothing in there, someone already cleaned it out or your clutch is ok (at least in one piece). Properly working, you should be able to spin all four wheels when you put the bucket against a bank of some sort. With a bad  O. clutch, the machine is still useable, just doesn’t have any guts. It is a good powerful trans, just has that strange weak link built in.

I don't plan on putting the stuff into the bottom of the case..   Good to know but I'm not a fan of slam shifts..    Once I get it running better I will try it out to see if I can engage both gears and make the tires spin.. 

With that said the shifter is a little wonky..  Getting it into neutral can be tough.. What can that be? 

4 hours ago, Sledgehammer said:

Interesting machine for sure. I like this also.  Don’t see a good cross peen being used much any more 😊 And a large anvil.....be still my beating heart....

 

Thanks.. If you want.. There is a blacksmithing channel on youtube.. JLP Services Inc..  There is a bunch.

[blacksmith]

2 hours ago, Jeff-C-IL said:

I hate to be a negative kinda guy..... and I REALLY like your work on that pin.....But

Did you consider that the pin was worn, but the holes in the pedal were not (or minimal)?   You used a lawnmower blade to make a new pin....will the harder pin now wear the pedal out instead?  (I realize you may not be suing this daily!)

Pins/bolts are easy to change - holes in parts less so.   I always use the softest bolt I think will not break, for that exact reason.    I have a disk ripper that does a beautiful job, but is almost ready to be retired for scrap, because the sheer bolt holes are worn and egged from previous owner using too hard of sheer bolts.   Everything is welded to the main frame, there is no clearance to drill out or weld up the holes.

Both the pedal and the floor bracket needed to be oversized to the 5/16.. They were more then egged out..  So recentered the hole for the new pin.. 

the pin being bigger has more contact area then the orginal so even though the new pin is harder there will be less wear..  With the larger bearing surface area and the material of the blade being harder there will be less stiction..   

As a blacksmith and fabricator making a whole new pedal assembly with a few modifications like bushings on the wear points would maybe be about 1.5hrs..  Took longer to make the new parts to an older design..   Fixing things always take longer than making new.. 

Taking into consideration where the part goes has a lot to do with how the part is designed..   I don't think this pin will be a problem..  

I do like your thought process though..  Natural engineer? 

[Sledgehammer]

19 minutes ago, blacksmith said: 

Thanks.. If you want.. There is a blacksmithing channel on youtube.. JLP Services Inc..  There is a bunch.

After a quick look I like what you are doing (assuming that is you). I especially like the looks of the axe. Not like axes others have made but an older looking design. 👍🏼👍🏼  I won’t derail your thread to far but I stuck to a belt axe size with a slight beard because it’s a shape I like and find useful. Really clean lines on the hammer also 👍🏼

[CDN 400]

Well holy poop batman ,I thought I had the only one of those old 3800's left. Yours looks way better than mine but mine runs and operates ok. Mine was headed for the smelter because they couldn't make it run after sitting a few years so I gave them scrap price a couple years ago. Threw on an injection of a hough loader and she lit, handy as a shirt pocket around the farm.

[Rawleigh99]

A new thread over on Construction might get you some more input as well.

[Matt Kirsch]

37 minutes ago, Rawleigh99 said:

A new thread over on Construction might get you some more input as well.

Debatable. That forum, while "correct" for this machine, isn't as well-traveled.

We'd really need a survey of folks on this site who frequent ONLY the Construction forum. My feeling is that it's not many.

The lion's share of activity, and eyes, are on this forum. The thread's already here. I would lobby that we roll with it as-is.

A moderator could move the thread, as starting a second one for the same question(s) is poor forum etiquette, and often against the rules of a forum site (not sure about this one, don't want to take the time to look it up, LOL). You would lose most of the folks following the thread that way though.

[yellowrosefarm]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:38 AM, blacksmith said:

WOW, thanks so much.. You seem to have a lot of experience with "this" kind of thing.    Does RedPowerMagizine have a sticky section?  Be great to document several rebuilds with parts sources..  Most of the threads I found were dead and no one followed up with part access, number nor results..  

These machines seems so far and few in between when I saw it on FB market place I reached out right away.. it just looks like it could do it all then more..  Whether it can or not i'm ok either way.. 

I love that the DNA for the 3800, 3820 and the 3850 is nearly the same.  The 3850 is a very neat machine.. Congrats..  Did you start a thread on it? 

I have to ask because you seem to be that much further ahead with information..     This model is put together as you pointed out with outside sourced items.. 

The problem I am having is: " I don't know what sources they are and which vintage"..     I can weld and fabricate so not concerned with the machines body.. 

I'm not new to old iron..  Be it manual or engine driven.. Been working on a Davis TF200 which needed a lotta love.. 

Starters would be the transmission..   Allison:  Which model?  The tag sadly on this machine was mostly destroyed by someone trying to read it so used everything they should not have.. (sand blaster, wire brush) to remove the paint. 

How do I read this?  Does someone have a clean tag that shows what series of numbers means? 

At this point a transmission manual, fuel injections pump and brake master manual are all that I could want.  Huge fan of factory manuals.   ( I have owners, engine, Parts break down) 

I'm really excited to have it. I've always really liked the way they look..   it's overkill for our little place 

The backhoe was removed by the original owner from what I was told. The guy I got it from rebuilt the pivot unit.  I ended up hauling it on my trailer which saved me some $$$ 

Thanks so much.. I ended up going over there and found the 3800, 3820, and 3850..   

I tried to catch a screen shot but the computer did not want to cooperate so had to snap a photo. 

Hope you guys don't mind all the photos..   I find them to be helpful.. 

The belts for the water pump, generator is a 17495..  When I compared the 2 for the fan and waterpump there is very little difference in overall length.. I ordered 2 of the 17495 and see if that will do the trick. 

Water pump was shot.. I have never seen a pump with such bad bearings..  Maybe 1/2" of play.. 

Welcome!  You are going to fit in here just fine. I really like what you did with your trailer and the removable lifting system.

[Binderoid]

14 hours ago, blacksmith said:

On 5/19/2022 at 10:37 AM, Binderoid said:

I don't plan on putting the stuff into the bottom of the case..

....nobody does. Wasn’t suggesting you were an animal behind the wheel... but that’s not a Cat 950.... that Allison has to be at a parade rest before changing directions. You’ll see what I mean when you get it running. When revving the engine with the brake applied (raising boom approaching a dump truck) ,  releasing the brake will result in a slam engagement if the engine is anywhere above idle. Same holds true for down shifting. Use the brakes to to come to a stop in second gear, then shift to first. Up shift with hammer down is ok. The two best things you can do for that trans is learn how to treat it right, and do not let anyone else use the machine.

[blacksmith]

49 minutes ago, Binderoid said:

....nobody does. Wasn’t suggesting you were an animal behind the wheel... but that’s not a Cat 950.... that Allison has to be at a parade rest before changing directions. You’ll see what I mean when you get it running. When revving the engine with the brake applied (raising boom approaching a dump truck) ,  releasing the brake will result in a slam engagement if the engine is anywhere above idle. Same holds true for down shifting. Use the brakes to to come to a stop in second gear, then shift to first. Up shift with hammer down is ok. The two best things you can do for that trans is learn how to treat it right, and do not let anyone else use the machine.

Thanks for your insight..   I will heed your advice to the letter..     I come from a very long line of SAAB cars that I hot rodded.. I would blow a transmission every few months at 1200.00 for rebuild parts..   Was fun at the time..  

My desire for intact equipment without "HAVING" to fix it is about as solid as it gets..   I'm not a showy person..  my items have to start, stop and be reliable above all else.. 

So, unless its an accident I won't be hot dogging it at all.   When things go bad on big equipment they go bad fast.. 

Last spring I had a Kubota B6000 go on it's side..  Luckily I was able to dive jump roll away from the machine and only injured my knee (hit the steering wheel) and my shoulder

Turns out someone put a 4" round tree in the compost pile instead of the burn pile..  I was pushing the compost back in the dark and it must have moved the log out.. When I was backing up the rear wheel hit it and catapulted the machine right over.. Luckily the bucket was up and stopped it from going all the way over..