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8 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

Next day? Compared to a minimum of 2 days if not more? If shipped USPS you'll be waiting a week. 

Not saying you're not wrong. But sometimes a day makes a big difference in getting something in ahead of weather. If i can be going any quicker. Im willing to pay a little for it. Not 40 dollars for a 10 dollar piece but a little more. That's just absolute highway robbery. 

Of course maybe im the only one with that type of urgency to get it done. 

If they can get it in a day the extra cost may be worth it if it’s urgent. I have to adjust my equipment repairs and use around a regular “real job” schedule so if something breaks it puts me behind no matter how fast I can get parts. 

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18 hours ago, Big Bud guy said:

 Long story short he contacted the owner of the dealer (its a multi store dealership) he offered to install a reman engine for $21,000 which my neighbor took.  

Some of those remans are questionable

I would rather have have the original motor that you know how it was operated

No telling what the core was subjected too before the reman

If they used cast iron rings on the original it would have been fine the coated rings have special break in procedures 

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If they used Cummins parts. I can see the big repair bill. As far as reman engines it would be thought to find a reman small cam Cummins which would be in a 850 from factory. I know 8 or so years ago we rebuilt our 976 with Cummins parts. It was around 12500 without clutch or labor. Injector pump was separate. Everybody talks about cheap overhauls they are just not feasible.  I think shop labor is around 250 an hour now isn’t it.  As far as the Cummins not getting broken in idling that is an old wife’s tale.

A simple formula to overhaul a engine. Pull it out for total tear down and clean up. Put every piece in new don’t skimp, start engine adjust valves, injectors, make sure everything oils. Bolt valve covers down check hose clamps, bolts and hoses. Check oil water drive away job done.

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If they used Cummins parts. I can see the big repair bill. As far as reman engines it would be thought to find a reman small cam Cummins which would be in a 850 from factory. I know 8 or so years ago we rebuilt our 976 with Cummins parts. It was around 12500 without clutch or labor. Injector pump was separate. Everybody talks about cheap overhauls they are just not feasible.  I think shop labor is around 250 an hour now isn’t it.  As far as the Cummins not getting broken in idling that is an old wife’s tale.

A simple formula to overhaul a engine. Pull it out for total tear down and clean up. Put every piece in new don’t skimp, start engine adjust valves, injectors, make sure everything oils. Bolt valve covers down check hose clamps, bolts and hoses. Check oil water drive away job done.

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New Holland has been sell Fiat crawler tractor to the vineyard/ wine business like crazy the last 20 years here. Two within 2 mile have been waiting for parts for months. The one is less than 5 years old the other 7 to 10 with about 4000 hours. The older one was bought when engine parts where not available the rebuild his old IH TD 6. But more old TD 6's came his way so he again has 1 maybe 2, 60-70 year old tractors running. As the newer one awaits parts that they will not even guess when they will come.

 

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Quoting jobs accurately has tonbe one of the most stressful jobs going in my opinion, especially when you dont have the luxury of knowing your customer on a first name basis.  I got screwed or screwed myself twice under quoting and getting into the pitfall of "I gotta get it right before it leaves" Any big jobs I tell a customer to prepare for absolute worst case scenario.  It's better to under promise and over deliver.  

Lots of dealers are getting very greedy in the parts department and judging by other stories I see I'm not the only one.  

I'm an A&I dealer now (go ahead give me a hard time, but some stuff is ok and much much better priced) and its eye opening seeing what our local dealer was charging for some if the stuff as well as marking up the shipping.  A customer was replacing tie rods and I just so happened to have the same ones in my truck with the bill.  60% markup and about 30% on the freight.  

I'm all for markup on inventory parts because inventory costs you money and upkeep, but when you get mega markup just doing keyboard work and ordering in for guaranteed resale, that's getting greedy.  

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1 hour ago, ray54 said:

New Holland has been sell Fiat crawler tractor to the vineyard/ wine business like crazy the last 20 years here. Two within 2 mile have been waiting for parts for months. The one is less than 5 years old the other 7 to 10 with about 4000 hours. The older one was bought when engine parts where not available the rebuild his old IH TD 6. But more old TD 6's came his way so he again has 1 maybe 2, 60-70 year old tractors running. As the newer one awaits parts that they will not even guess when they will come.

 

Ray

I do not understand this.  The Fiat dozer parts situation in Oz is still pretty good so there are obviously parts in Italy.  And those Fiat Ag machines are in demand.  A neighbour just parked his TD 6 for a Fiat 605C

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12 minutes ago, Ian Beale said:

Ray

I do not understand this.  The Fiat dozer parts situation in Oz is still pretty good so there are obviously parts in Italy.  And those Fiat Ag machines are in demand.  A neighbour just parked his TD 6 for a Fiat 605C

Judging by what I read on the Internet, it seems that a lack of some crawler parts is a uniquely American problem. 

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The one NH parked since Oct is something with the starting. I don't know how bad he wants it to go as he drive the TD 6 at every opportunity. Puts other help on the new tractor. The other one is owned by a want to be farmer, that may roll it over yet.  He told me engine pully, which I think he means vibration damper on the crank. But did not pursues it.😉 He would of been looking for help with something. Like the day it would not start with a ton of grapes on the trailer behind it. Battery was covered by a inch or 2 of dust.

But I think 10 of the little devils within 3 or 4 miles of me. Could close to 100 if you get out 40 or 50 miles. At a glace I cannot come up with model number but all TK models in the 70 to 80 HP rating.  Most are extra wide model for the across the hillside work. They will not last 50 years like a good old TD 6.

 

But the Lamborghini and Same's are lot less durable than the Fiats in blue paint.  

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32 minutes ago, Cdfarabaugh said:

I'm all for markup on inventory parts because inventory costs you money and upkeep, but when you get mega markup just doing keyboard work and ordering in for guaranteed resale, that's getting greedy.  

A i glass we ordered has $700 mark up at some  TOP NAME stealers. Prior to the latest scams we  could have, the identical glass from china/mexico  shipped to USA WH  sent to EURO wh  to dealer for $175 sent back to USA for $75 <but they knew if customs didnt intentionally break it, it would be ransomed for $300 +

A i refused to sell any to the atlanta dealer  < $500 BC there are 72 in iowa wh, And stocked dealers are identical price. But + travel and tolls to pick up. We had to pay $150 for the special crate and 3 day handling.

it was shipped from ATLANTA !!! ,physically handled over 50x sent to IOWA !!! then NY then on, over 10 DAYS

Arrived in a torn single wall oversize CARDBOARD with 4 twist socks for protection lying in the bottom.

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Service estimates at my location are supposed to be created by the mechanics, and any overage is approved by the customer. I think I'm the only one who does that, the rest let the service manager do it. I have no accurate way of determining all the fees and extra freight they tack on at the end, but my base estimates are always right on. Gotta have those miscellaneous and environmental disposal fees! Hard to believe they would go from an in-frame to a complete overhaul without contact. I have a lot of customers that say "just fix it". I still give an estimate, and they're usually shocked and try to cut corners then.

21 hours ago, nepoweshiekfarmalls said:

If that Deere dealer is like the multi store conglomerates around here, I know how much they stock.........

With the previous owner, we were able to keep an enormous amount of parts on hand. Now parts on hand is managed by a computer ordering system based on sales, and managed by one employee based at the location near you. We can get parts overnight for a per item fee, or free through an interstore transfer or stock order. It's annoying when I have to transfer the most common things, like and AC compressor or belt.

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One needs to be really careful in the state of Illinois. Anything over $100.00 needs further approval or the repair facility is liable for the balance. This approval can be verbal but that doesn't hold up in court where a signed work authorization does. I've seen where 10% overage is allowed and 15% not be by the same judge. BTDT a few times when having trouble getting compensated after someone "changed their mind" about repairs. Profit/loss is made in the office, but that needs done correctly to protect all parties involved. 

Usually the customer pays up and doesn't patronize the establishment again and they talk unfavorably reporting their one sided experiences.....

I never believed in the customer is always right mentality. I personally told a lot of people they didn't need to return and have no regrets over doing so. Part of that is the power of a good reputation and repeat customer base which I cherished, protected, and rewarded through "gifting" of services. This was done with either a reduced charge, or outright free of any charge and again, people talk relaying their experience(s). 

 

 

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Dealers charging fees for shipping and such is not a new thing. Back in the eighties I needed a drive belt for a Hagan sickle-mo on my Cub Cadet. I stopped by an old IH ag and lawn equipment dealer thinking he might have one in stock or could match me up. He didn't have it in stock, so he called the distribution center to order it. When I stopped in to pick up the belt he had added a charge for the long distance phone call. I always figured that a charge like that was figured into overhead or markup for parts.

BTW, this dealer shut down a couple of years ago, but the building is still packed full of parts. I think that they know what they have and are holding out to really cash out someday. If they wait too long, there won't be a market for the older parts. Another example of greed biting you in the end.

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As a service manager who writes estimates, manages the jobs in the shop, and closes service calls/generates invoices... I find above examples appalling.

I use a 10% rule, as in the final invoice needs to be within 10% of quote. If scope of work changes, you dang well talk to the customer before proceeding. I try to make the possible up-charges clear going in, I.E... should cost $____ if we get in and find xyz it will cost $abc.

As to parts surcharges, what is to be done? The manufacturers are trying to streamline parts inventory systems and are pushing charges down to dealer levels. I won't say how much my work ate in delivery fees last yr, but it was in excess of 8 figures. That kind of money will sting the biggest of dealerships and has to come from somewhere. 

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On 5/14/2022 at 11:32 AM, nepoweshiekfarmalls said:

If that Deere dealer is like the multi store conglomerates around here, I know how much they stock.........

Rhymes with schmero, am I right? They really torque me off on that. Even low cost, small parts that don't take up space and have virtually zero cost of inventory. 

I love how they say "but we can order it". If I have to wait a few days, I'm not going to wait a few days, then drive to the dealer, then pay your dealer markup for it. I'm going to pay an internet price, and have it on my doorstep, and that's the ONLY price I'm going to pay for having to wait a few days. It's like they don't get that.

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8 hours ago, Cattech said:

As a service manager who writes estimates, manages the jobs in the shop, and closes service calls/generates invoices... I find above examples appalling.

I use a 10% rule, as in the final invoice needs to be within 10% of quote. If scope of work changes, you dang well talk to the customer before proceeding. I try to make the possible up-charges clear going in, I.E... should cost $____ if we get in and find xyz it will cost $abc.

As to parts surcharges, what is to be done? The manufacturers are trying to streamline parts inventory systems and are pushing charges down to dealer levels. I won't say how much my work ate in delivery fees last yr, but it was in excess of 8 figures. That kind of money will sting the biggest of dealerships and has to come from somewhere. 

Ten million in delivery? That op is huge!

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2 hours ago, KWRB said:

I love how they say "but we can order it". If I have to wait a few days, I'm not going to wait a few days, then drive to the dealer, then pay your dealer markup for it. I'm going to pay an internet price, and have it on my doorstep, and that's the ONLY price I'm going to pay for having to wait a few days. It's like they don't get that.

with kool aid addicted chugging mega dealers "mother" is carrot/sticking them into all forms of ridiculous fees /markups.

ordered an internet hinge $50 vs $200 , well it was only 1/2 of a $28 hinge  .

the $28 retail is NOT sold to the public,cant get refund/exchange

1 you ordered it

2 CC are NOT accepted out of the home dealer area !!! , MUST use in store , "KID" was not authorized to place the order ,by phone as you skirted a miraid of fees doing it that way.

3 that STD pricing is for ESTABLISHED customers in the SYSTEM in the "SALES AREA"

4 at this point ,too deep and waiting another 2 weeks for APPROVED stealer to get FOB would save $10 

5 cost $500 to get correct part,only sold to public  in $175 markup extra parts not wanted pac.

 

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19 hours ago, Cattech said:

As a service manager who writes estimates, manages the jobs in the shop, and closes service calls/generates invoices... I find above examples appalling.

I use a 10% rule, as in the final invoice needs to be within 10% of quote. If scope of work changes, you dang well talk to the customer before proceeding. I try to make the possible up-charges clear going in, I.E... should cost $____ if we get in and find xyz it will cost $abc.

I agree on all fronts of what you said, if you can't quote a job within 10% you are either new or crooked.  There are jobs that get out of hand in every line of work, but a conversation with the customer is necessary in that situation. 

Parts pricing,  availability and reliability sucks but that is nothing new or there would have never been aftermarket parts. 

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17 hours ago, KWRB said:

Ten million in delivery? That op is huge!

I retired from the same company that @Cattech works for, and remember hearing about a few years ago that the shuttle trucks ran a total of about 7000 miles per day.  Yes, a very large expense that needs to be accounted for, and often absorbed as “customer service” within company departments.

Brian

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On 5/15/2022 at 7:27 PM, KWRB said:

Ten million in delivery? That op is huge!

That's not delivery fees.. that is upcharges for "hot rush" orders...

Say I need a part that the dealer doesn't have on the shelf in one of our 30 stores but the manufacturer has it in both the local depot and the central hub. I have to choose a delivery priority. If I order it 3 days out, it will come from the hub and cost X dollars. If I order the part for immediate pick up at the local depot, there will be a 20% upcharge - so X times 1.20.... The 8 figure price tag was for those charges which we absorbed out of profit margin rather than pass on to the customer. 

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,

2 hours ago, Cattech said:

That's not delivery fees.. that is upcharges for "hot rush" orders...

Say I need a part that the dealer doesn't have on the shelf in one of our 30 stores but the manufacturer has it in both the local depot and the central hub. I have to choose a delivery priority. If I order it 3 days out, it will come from the hub and cost X dollars. If I order the part for immediate pick up at the local depot, there will be a 20% upcharge - so X times 1.20.... The 8 figure price tag was for those charges which we absorbed out of profit margin rather than pass on to the customer. 

So a basis cost minimum of $50M in delivery, if 20% of basis is eight figures (at least $10M).  Revenue must be about $1B using the most conservative numbers, i.e. using only $10M surcharges and the higher end of target inbound freight to revenue of 3-5%.


That's a huge business. Granted my knowledge of the construction/mining etc. industries is limited, I would not have guessed there were service companies that large.

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1 hour ago, KWRB said:

,

So a basis cost minimum of $50M in delivery, if 20% of basis is eight figures (at least $10M).  Revenue must be about $1B using the most conservative numbers, i.e. using only $10M surcharges and the higher end of target inbound freight to revenue of 3-5%.


That's a huge business. Granted my knowledge of the construction/mining etc. industries is limited, I would not have guessed there were service companies that large.

You know, actually doing the math, I have to question some of the numbers pushed at recent meetings.

I don't think we sell $1B in parts, though I do know there are some big customers who do few Mil' a yr themselves.

There's numerous metrics corporate pushes on dealers and various incentives for meeting them. The 8 figure number probably includes those.

But my point, is so many are harping on their dealers and various charges and fees, but there's another side to the story. We're trying to keep our heads above water and stay in business too.

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17 minutes ago, Cattech said:

You know, actually doing the math, I have to question some of the numbers pushed at recent meetings.

I don't think we sell $1B in parts, though I do know there are some big customers who do few Mil' a yr themselves.

There's numerous metrics corporate pushes on dealers and various incentives for meeting them. The 8 figure number probably includes those.

But my point, is so many are harping on their dealers and various charges and fees, but there's another side to the story. We're trying to keep our heads above water and stay in business too.

For sure. That's what makes these economies hard to control. There are so many interconnected parts, that there's no one lever that can be pulled to fix it. I am treading closer to the "P"-line than I like to, but fixing an economy can't be accomplished by "saying the right things". Lots of things need to be done in concert. What exactly they are and in what measure for each, that's for someone more educated than I am. But certainly something is broken, everyone is feeling pain, and in a country as large as ours and and blessed as ours in terms of knowledge, those people are here, somewhere.

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43 minutes ago, Cattech said:

You know, actually doing the math, I have to question some of the numbers pushed at recent meetings.

I don't think we sell $1B in parts, though I do know there are some big customers who do few Mil' a yr themselves.

There's numerous metrics corporate pushes on dealers and various incentives for meeting them. The 8 figure number probably includes those.

But my point, is so many are harping on their dealers and various charges and fees, but there's another side to the story. We're trying to keep our heads above water and stay in business too.

I'm gonna be the "bad guy" here and call BS on the dealers side to a point.  If so many dealers are hurting why has there been massive consolidation the past few years with these mega dealers buying large swaths of territory? If business were so bad I sure wouldnt be pumping money into more locations. 

To find another Deere AG, Deere CE, Cat, or Case CE or CaseIH dealer I have to drive easily over 2 hours to just touch another's territory.  10-15 years ago this wasnt the case.  The pace of takeovers is only accelerating 

I've had bad experiences working for a lot of dealers around here as they're 2nd or 3rd generation "handed to the kids" operation and a family business only because of the name attached.  Now they're playing with monopoly money in a segment of the industry where there is 0 competition in their brand, and the brand sells itself.  

 

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5 hours ago, Cdfarabaugh said:

I'm gonna be the "bad guy" here and call BS on the dealers side to a point.  If so many dealers are hurting why has there been massive consolidation the past few years with these mega dealers buying large swaths of territory? If business were so bad I sure wouldnt be pumping money into more locations. 

To find another Deere AG, Deere CE, Cat, or Case CE or CaseIH dealer I have to drive easily over 2 hours to just touch another's territory.  10-15 years ago this wasnt the case.  The pace of takeovers is only accelerating 

I've had bad experiences working for a lot of dealers around here as they're 2nd or 3rd generation "handed to the kids" operation and a family business only because of the name attached.  Now they're playing with monopoly money in a segment of the industry where there is 0 competition in their brand, and the brand sells itself.  

 

I think a large large part of the consolidation is that there isn’t that much money in it any more. Small dealers have been calling it quits, at least in the Ag sector, for a long time. I’m aware that some are forced out, but many have just given up. I’m not sure that much of this is any different than farming. 160 acre operators would struggle to even break even anymore, but a 10,000 acre operator can make A LOT of money. I also don’t think any brand can sell itself without good products to back it up. IH was a huge name and it’s long gone. 60 years ago no one would have ever believed the entirety of IH would be gone. 

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