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Large engine starters 12V or 24V on same engine differences in starting


oleman
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 Does anyone have any personal experience on starter issues.

For example which starts an 855 Cummins better a 42MT direct drive starter or a 39MT reduction drive on the same voltage?

For cold weather starting  does  a 42MT 24V starter have any advantage over a 42MT 12V starter?

 

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..I would imagine the short answer would be "Yes" 

...back in the days of the Ford  side valve "V" engines, the rewiring of the system, except for the starter motor,   to twelve volts...would always encourage the old V8's to fire up immediately...seemingly without any worries for the still, six volt starter motor...

For the reluctant 12 volt system diesels.....once they starter was cranking  over..the  introduction of a twenty four volt feed via  'appropriate size jumper cables  would always convince the engine to fire also.....although one had to be quick....and 'positive'   (no pun intended,...)   with the hook up ..... otherwise  there was the fireshow ...sparks  etc :rolleyes:

Edit....The ''hookup''  for the 24 to 12 on the diesel engines is/was setting up the earth to frame...then the 'live' lead direct on to the starter motor..

I think, with respect to the American IH mechanics...that after the advent of the British International  Diesel  Engines....that given their  reluctance to start..be hot /cold whatever...that this spawned a broader approach , from the Mechanics., to find the ''Sweet spot ''  in the ongoing endeavors to fire them up..  The above method was one of those.....But you don't often have access to a 24 v    pack at your disposal...in the field...

The Australian version of this family of engines was the worst....seemingly the only difference  was the use of a DPA  injection pump.....a change from the older style CAV  pump... Trying  to start these engines in a New  Zealand  winter could make a grown man cry.....

Mike

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Mother Deere ran 24 volt starters for a number of years. 4020s and such. My truck has a gear reduction starter. It’s always started down to-15 without being plugged in, as long as it has run with in the last 12 hours. 

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This would be a good experiment to run using an inductive amp clamp and an accurate tachometer to find out.  Personally, I'm not sure why 24v has not caught on with all of the HD on and off highway market completely.  Most earthmoving equipment is 24v, but AG and Trucks aren't.  24v carries half the amps so money would be saved on copper wire one would think.  

I used to be dead set against gear reduction starters but dang they work good when they work.  Biggest downfall I see is theres no 2nd, 3rd, 4th life like your big old Delco starters, when they're done, they're junk.  Gear reductions are cheap enough though (well WERE cheap enough) that it's no big deal buying another one.  

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Did this many times. Take a 6 volt M or H starter run it on 12 volts it spins almost at idle speed. If a hard turning engine you will shorten starter life doing that. A jd 4020 starter was brought up here. The jd was 24 volt but only during starting. It was not like semis that used a parallel switch to put full 24 volt straight on positive post of starter. The John Deere completed the 24 volt system with isolated ground on field coils. Basically when solenoid engaged and I believe it was 12 volt negative on the solenoid hooked to the 12 volt positive ground that was insulated on field coil making what was essentially to 12 volt systems into a 24 volt. I used to rewire those every week but have forgotten. They ran the generator leads to 2 separate circuits and half the power load was split at circuit , breakers , light and key switch each having 2 separate power and load systems on one switch. For our own stuff we used to ground back terminal of starter and make them into straight 24 volt systems like construction machinery. We actually took some twelve volt bigger diesel starters and ran them at 24 volt for old payloaders and such. Used 12 volt stagers were more available than used 24 volt. I am sure that someone will explain but the way to get more power out of electrical system is to increase volts. Years ago they used to have 8 volt batteries to put in 6 volt systems to aid starting.

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Was doing some welding on the nearby military base.  Talking with one of the soldiers there in the maintenance shop. Some of their trucks had a switch in the cab to switch to 24v for hard starts

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5 minutes ago, dale560 said:

Did this many times. Take a 6 volt M or H starter run it on 12 volts it spins almost at idle speed. If a hard turning engine you will shorten starter life doing that. A jd 4020 starter was brought up here. The jd was 24 volt but only during starting. It was not like semis that used a parallel switch to put full 24 volt straight on positive post of starter. The John Deere completed the 24 volt system with isolated ground on field coils. Basically when solenoid engaged and I believe it was 12 volt negative on the solenoid hooked to the 12 volt positive ground that was insulated on field coil making what was essentially to 12 volt systems into a 24 volt. I used to rewire those every week but have forgotten. They ran the generator leads to 2 separate circuits and half the power load was split at circuit , breakers , light and key switch each having 2 separate power and load systems on one switch. For our own stuff we used to ground back terminal of starter and make them into straight 24 volt systems like construction machinery. We actually took some twelve volt bigger diesel starters and ran them at 24 volt for old payloaders and such. Used 12 volt stagers were more available than used 24 volt. I am sure that someone will explain but the way to get more power out of electrical system is to increase volts. Years ago they used to have 8 volt batteries to put in 6 volt systems to aid starting.

I had a 1967 model. Put in alternator and redid the entire battery and starting system with 2 group 31 batteries and 12v starter. Worked great after that, but the other system was 40 years old. Also remember having to hook a extra light on one of the batteries of the 3020 when we had the work lights on the bale picker plugged into the tractor. Was something about evening the draw on both batteries or they wouldn’t charge properly 

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I like the gear reduction starters they  seen to spin the motor faster with less battery providing better starting. 

I have Denso style gear reduction starters on both my ford diesel tractors they start well in cold weather now. 

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2 hours ago, midnightman said:

I had a 1967 model. Put in alternator and redid the entire battery and starting system with 2 group 31 batteries and 12v starter. Worked great after that, but the other system was 40 years old. Also remember having to hook a extra light on one of the batteries of the 3020 when we had the work lights on the bale picker plugged into the tractor. Was something about evening the draw on both batteries or they wouldn’t charge properly 

We had that trouble with dads 4020 when switched to straight 24 volt. We still ran 12 volt lights and gauges pulling power from first battery. The alternator would charge both batteries under light load but under heavy use the 12 volt or first battery in series would drain.

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delco starter died in my 9270

local auto sparky replaced it with the delco reduction gear, cos it was cheaper than O/H the 42mt

fairly spun the 855 over and less voltage draw

 

since then, when a 42mt delco has died         the 39mt has gone on, IHC 530 payloader (24V)    cat  3306 PC (12v) 

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5 hours ago, midnightman said:

Was doing some welding on the nearby military base.  Talking with one of the soldiers there in the maintenance shop. Some of their trucks had a switch in the cab to switch to 24v for hard starts

Our VFD's 5ton 6x6's are all 24v.

 

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In the '70s many light aircraft switched to 24 volt, not to aid starting but simply to provide more power while being lighter. My '78 182 is 24 volt while my friends '77 is 12. The alternators both are 60 amps but the power is doubled. Lighter gauge wires are used with 24 volts.

By using LED lights he's mitigated the issue, especially the high draw landing lights. I went with LED landing and taxi lights simply so I could leave them on all the time for anti collision purposed. The incandescent lamps had a very short life.

Engine cranking speed seems to be the same and they're easy starting engines anyway.

Converting 6 volt cars to 12 volts back in the day never seemed to adversely effect the starter.

I wonder why John Deere made that strange 12/24 system instead of straight 24?

 

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52 minutes ago, New Englander said:

In the '70s many light aircraft switched to 24 volt, not to aid starting but simply to provide more power while being lighter. My '78 182 is 24 volt while my friends '77 is 12. The alternators both are 60 amps but the power is doubled. Lighter gauge wires are used with 24 volts.

By using LED lights he's mitigated the issue, especially the high draw landing lights. I went with LED landing and taxi lights simply so I could leave them on all the time for anti collision purposed. The incandescent lamps had a very short life.

Engine cranking speed seems to be the same and they're easy starting engines anyway.

Converting 6 volt cars to 12 volts back in the day never seemed to adversely effect the starter.

I wonder why John Deere made that strange 12/24 system instead of straight 24?

 

The 12/24 John Deere system was a ploy to sell more corn planter monitors,had a neighbor who said corn planter monitors were actually intended to be a test device to confirm that the 12/24 system had good connections at all the grounds.   😁

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Every CNH Flagship combine(both New Holland and CaseIH) have had 24-volt starting since they came out in 2002-2003. Steigers have had 24-volt starting since 2003 production.

I'd hate to see a Flagship combine try to start with a 12-volt starter in extremely cold conditions...especially a CaseIH one. They have a PTO gearbox mounted to the back of the engine that has numerous hydrostatic pumps driven off of it. In cold weather it takes all of the engine's power just to turn all that crap first thing in the morning. 

When CNH came out with the STX Steigers/TJ New Hollands in 2001, they originally used a 12-volt starting system with 3 12-volt batteries in parallel with the 42 MT Delco starter. Once it got below freezing, those things had lots of starting issues. They had 3 problems: 1) It was 12-volts instead of 24; 2) The later 42 MT Delco starters were junk. IIRC, the later ones were built overseas...they were just very poor quality, and 3) Steiger mounted the batteries on the other side of the tractor from the starter...lots of voltage drop when battery cables are 12-15 feet long. This was all rectified when the 24-volt starting system came out in 2003. Now, shortly after the 24-volt system came out on the Steigers, they introduced the 39MT gear reduction starters to replace the 42 MT Delcos on the older 12-volt start machines. I replaced several 42MTs with the 39MTs under warranty...guys were much happier with them. I've often wondered if the STXs would have come out the gear reduction starters to begin with, that maybe Steigers would have never needed to go with the 24-volt system, but who knows. 

Then when emissions came out, the DEF systems on TierIVa machines needed 24 volts because the system was borrowed from Europe and was already setup for 24 volts. On both the Steigers and Flagship combines, we had a combination 12/24-volt system.  On those, the alternator only charged one battery...the 12 volt battery. The 24-volt battery(the second 12 volt battery hooked in series) was charged by a battery equalizer...which was more or less a trickle charger as it only charged the second battery at a rate of 10 amps maximum.

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There is talk of the auto industry going to 42 volt.

This is due to the heavy electrical load from all the bells and whistles the industry thinks we need?

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Our old 2001 GILLIG Transit bus, powered by a Cumminis ISC 8.3 is a Hodge-poge of systems,  most electrical systems is at 24 VDC (2 ea 8d 12v Batts) including the Engine (42MT @24VDC) and AC and VOITH transmission with a hydraulic retarder. The antilock and most of the airbrake controls run off of 12 VDC.  I have all the service manuals, this thing is more like a Ship than a truck or car.  The RV conversion is also running at (2 ea 31 AGM 12v batts) 24V,  A 300A 24V brushless alternator charges up the whole shebang when   Cummins  engine is running.  The emergency generator starts and runs off of a 12 VDC water cooled Honda generator.  It produces 115 VAC and powers a 24 VDC battery charger for the 24 V systems.  Its power backup is a solar panel that charges the Honda bat if the sun shines,   if everything else fails. 

So this total kludge can  become operational   by sunshine on a solar cell and a gallon of gasoline. and many gallons of diesel.

I woke up the other night at 0300, wondering how and why did I get into this project.

 

 

 

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Mother Deere is already there...their planters run 48(?) volt systems for all the planter drives. They've had that setup for 3-4 years now(maybe longer). They offer a generator that mounts to the PTO on your tractor to supply power to the planter. This is a setup on a customer's new Quadtrac. Looks like Deere finally come out with something to compete against IH's Electrall.

20220510_184116.jpg

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20220510_184155.jpg

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We converted almost all our 24 volt equipment to 12 because of not having a 24 volt charger for jump starting

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8 hours ago, SDman said:

Mother Deere is already there...their planters run 48(?) volt systems for all the planter drives. They've had that setup for 3-4 years now(maybe longer). They offer a generator that mounts to the PTO on your tractor to supply power to the planter. This is a setup on a customer's new Quadtrac. Looks like Deere finally come out with something to compete against IH's Electrall.

20220510_184116.jpg

20220510_184132.jpg

20220510_184155.jpg

Hey dad, think we need a new planter. The hitch pin bounced out, pretty sure it will cost more to fix than we paid for the 1st new 12 row you bought.  🙂

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15 hours ago, SDman said:

2) The later 42 MT Delco starters were junk. IIRC, the later ones were built overseas...they were just very poor quality,

The auto electrician I've been using for the last 50 + years would agree with that.  He considers M42's as about the worst Delco ever, M40's about the best.

I did put one of his reconditioned M42's on our AC 45 grader, as it does not many starts a year and the price was right.

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Hard to beat ohms law.  If you double the voltage you decrease the amperage with the same power.  And with less amperage you can run smaller wires, and batteries have lower draw and work better in the cold.

 

the military stuff is mostly 24v for commonality and powering radios. If everything is the same voltage they can jump start anyone.

 

there has been talk of increased voltage in cars for 25 plus years, but that is a big group to change

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16 minutes ago, AKwelder said:

there has been talk of increased voltage in cars for 25 plus years, but that is a big group to change

That has NEVER been an obstacle before.

The automakers would NOT bother with the technical details, since your typical cidiot would NOT comprehend, BUT sell them MORE 'power' and add a boat load of new accessories, and the "manly man", and the "studly women" would lap it all up in a nano-second.

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1 hour ago, AKwelder said:

Hard to beat ohms law.  If you double the voltage you decrease the amperage with the same power.  And with less amperage you can run smaller wires, and batteries have lower draw and work better in the cold.

 

the military stuff is mostly 24v for commonality and powering radios. If everything is the same voltage they can jump start anyone.

 

there has been talk of increased voltage in cars for 25 plus years, but that is a big group to change

That’s the law I was thinking about but couldn’t remember it. When we take our certification tests a lot of voltage and motor hp problems on the test.

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